Yesterday turned out to be a very good day. S19 hung around here all day and it's the first QT we've had since he moved back to school. His GF is usually in town on the same days so time alone with him isl hard to come by.. understandably!
Matt and I had a great, and lengthy talk yesterday before H came home. I might be strange, but it comforts me for him to be here. We are just so close. Not closer than my other kids.. but we are a lot alike I'd say and I don't have to explain much to him. He just gets it. Maybe because I was young and unmarried when I had him and we grew up together? Or maybe because he's my first grown child and I'm just seeing how it is to have a friendship with one of my children. We talked a long time about the sitch here. It's nice to discuss it with someone and them not take sides. My friends tend to take my side, and some of them H's because they see what a nice guy he is. I don't need to be placing blame right now. What we need is to decide how to move forward without being in such turmoil.
Convo started with Matt giving me a book he stayed up til 3AM reading. Electric God. He said there's something in it for me because the story kind of reminded him of his Dad and me, but much different. Different characters, but similar struggles. I started it last night.
I filled him in on what's been happening and how confused I am about what the right way is to handle it. He said that at this point, he agrees me and his Dad being together is unhealthy. We talked about that. We also talked about what a healthy R has to have. Good talk with my son because he and his GF have a pretty serious R, so he's starting to think about that in his life. He said that his opinion is that H needs to be on his own and learn to handle his life and probs and that I need some space to deal with mine too. That all our energy is going towards each other and not productively. Yep, he gets it. I kinda laughed because he said "Mom, I think you just need to live your life and stop worrying about Dad. Do what you want to do..be who you want to be and let him figure it out" Then we talked about how H and I get dragged into the dramas because we're right here together and I always take the bait. He said, well you need space. And then I expressed my concern that H can't take care of himself financially, and doesnt have the skills to be on his own. We agreed that it's time for him to learn the, or not, but that I can't make him. And, that I keep him from having to also. And I told S19 how afraid I am that H will be on his own and sit at home doing nothing and not having a life.. waiting because that's what he did when we D. It's worse this time because when we S in the spring, he did contemplate suicide. And the other side of that coin is I fear him going from R to R trying to find happiness. I don't want to go through that, or have the kids watch that either. Matt said he can see what I mean. And then said.. given that either solution, him being with you in the R right now, or being on his own are probably not good answers.. what does that leave? He said "Dad doesnt want to leave, I know that" Then he asked "what if he has separate space in the house for awhile? You guys live your lives, be parents and sort out your own stuff, but set up some rules and boundaries that will help keep it friendly until you can both see if you want to be together or not? That way Dad has us close by if he needs us, but you arent living his life either. Maybe you could work up a financial thing that he has to manage his own money and make his own decisions." I admitted to him that H hasnt been sleeping in our room, and said that at one point.. when he was first home, I'd thought about asking him if he wanted to set the family room downstairs up as a room for him. Maybe we could set up a schedule so he has his free days, I have mine, and we spend time together with the kids too. Not sure. I'll have to talk to H about it, but it would be better than him being banished to upstairs and us being in the same room festering like we are right now.
H came home and we discussed plans. He didnt know what he wants to do (usual), but looked very tired. S19 kept asking H for his opinion, but he wouldnt commit to anything. Then S19 said "Dad.. I can tell your tired, and dont want to commit you to more than you can physically handle right now, so help us out will ya!" H said "how about laying on the couch watching football?" and laughed. We all laughed at that. Then D11 suggested we do dinner and a movie. Something we used to do all the time on Sat evenings. We'd get a video and all cook together.. name the food to go with the movie like the show and then set up a buffet in the LR while we watched the movie. Everyone wanted to do that, but we couldnt agree on a movie. So, we ended up renting all the movies. Went shopping for the food and came home and cooked together. I was proud of H.. he helped us cook and made brocolli cheese soup. Didnt complain when the kids made a mess decorating sugar cookies and was just generally relaxed and nice. He asked a million times if Im OK, and got a little huffed with me at bedtime, but other than that, we had a great evening. Movies were mostly. We watched Hitchhiker's guide to the Galaxy.. was hard to get into, but got better, and Sisterhood of the Travelling Pants. D11 loved it.. cute movie. We still have Bewitched to watch because it got too late, and the boys have been watching Shark Boy and Lava Girl non-stop.
So, sometime soon I'm going to see if I can talk to H about making our separate spaces permanent and working out a schedule so we can both GAL, yet have time together with the kids. We just need a very big buffer zone between us right now I think. We spend too much time together and it's hard right now. I've decided to take up Karate and am going to check into that this week. Should be fun. We want to get the boys into it when they're ready.. and Matt loves it, so why not me too? D11 isnt interested because it'll make her sweat! Hopefully, Matt will talk H into getting his dive certification. It was something they were supposed to do together last spring, but H didnt do it. I even set up a spring break trip to FL for them over spring break, but H didnt get his cert, so they didnt go. Maybe he'll agree.. it's another thing he intends to do.. but hasnt made it happen.
So, do you feel like you're making any progress at getting comfortable with groundlessness? I kind of am, and in a weird way it's almost a relief. Thinking that I don't have to force a situation into some kind of resolution. I can be okay, at least for awhile, out here in limbo.
I planned to say a good deal more but it's getting late for me, so I'll make sure to come around again tomorrow.
Meantime, I had just one sort of odd thing to throw out there for you. Matt really seems like a solid person. I hope you're as proud of yourself, and even H, as you are of him. But he seems to be pretty serious about his GF. You and I both married pretty young, and I've really been thinking that getting married before having lived on your own for awhile is a very dangerous proposition, unless both partners are just fantastically grounded people. Who really understand the work involved in an R, and don't just think R's work because they're "so in love". Has that ever crossed your mind? Have you ever talked about it with him, or is it way too early in the game for that?
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
Hey Sheila! You're really very good at rambling. Thanks for notice. I'd agree I'm very good at thinking and rambling, but not necessarily getting anywhere with it! Actually, journalling here inches me along ever so slowly. It's easier for me to type my feelings than to think them through.. and alot of times when I see it in type later I can see where I err in my thinking about things. I also measure progress and backslides. Mostly backslides lately unfortunately!
So, do you feel like you're making any progress at getting comfortable with groundlessness? I kind of am, and in a weird way it's almost a relief. Thinking that I don't have to force a situation into some kind of resolution. I can be okay, at least for awhile, out here in limbo. Oh Bud.. I'm not comfortable with groundlessness ;( It's scary stuff.. even when I tell myself that security is an illusion. How much do you know about being an idealist? I don't know much, but intend on doing some reading on it.. I think I'm way to idealistic in my approach to life. It causes me soooo many problems. H says all the time "I'm trying. It chaps my butt when he says that. I think.. trying??? If you know the answer, then just do it! I guess because to me, I'm either doing something, or not doing it in my mind. It's that security of extremes again. I've got to break loose from that somehow!
Matt... yes, he and his GF are pretty serious. We talk a lot about that. But, they aren't in lust thankfully! Or I should say, that they aren't being driven by that "I'm in love" thing. Both of them are solid as rocks emotionally and they have a very devoted friendship. Our families are close, so us and her parents keep a close eye on them. Have been rough spots with them going to schools three hours apart and missing each other but they are adjusting better than I thought. Thanks for asking.. they are so young, you're right about that. But as far as I know, they don't disagree on anything major, yet. and they are totally there for each other emotionally. They actively love each other.. its a wonderful thing to see. Hope it lasts, but if it doesn't I know they'll both be OK. Good heads on their shoulders!
Ahhh.. post bath quiet and almost reading time We have to work with S5 on recognizing his letter sounds.
Just wanted to journal that it's been a good evening after a rough day emotionally. Started out in the pits, but was better this afternoon. Went to the gym at lunch (thank goodness because it relaxed me!). Then had a hairy convo with H. Remember back when he started taking more responsibility for the finances? Well, he made a goof with the electric bill.. nothing major and he called me about it right away. But he underpaid it by $30.. was a complete accident on his part, and the notice that it was short didnt make it to our mailbox (not a surprise around here!). So he returned home after picking up the kids and no electric. He was p*ssed! He called to tell me he had to pay the $30 balance plus a reconnection fee and wanted to know where I have the checks. I was calm and asked had he talked to J at the electric company and explained that he paid the bill. He said "no" some other guy. And I suggested that he go there (because he couldnt find the stub to tell whether it was his mistake or theirs). So he did and found out that he was $30 short and the guy there couldnt do a thing about the reconnect fee. H called me and told me, and I asked if he told them that the last mistake THEY made was to post my payment to the wrong account and it took a half hour on the phone and digging up cleared check to get it straight. He said he did, but that the manager would be there tomorrow.. he's go ahead and pay today. Asked about the checks again and I said "H, I know there's a need, but it's entirely your fault that I don't allow you access to checks unless I give them to you, so you'll have to handle it another way. He said "this isnt a time to make a point! I'll have to go all the way to the bank and back and only have 25 mins or we'll have to pay additional for reconnect after hours". I said "so be it.. you handle it, but I'm still not going to tell you where the checks are. I know it was an accident, but you did pay the bill short and now you're in a spot you're going to have to get out of yourself." He wasnt happy, but he said "fine!" I did it and wasnt angry at all.. just firm and reassuring that he could go to the bank and it would be OK.
I feel bad about it, but realize that it wasnt my fault and I dont need to give him access to my checks. He's the one that caused the mistrust, he's going to have to deal with it until he can earn that trust. And besides.. I remember a lesson we taught Matt three years ago. I was huge preg with Daniel and had asked him to drop the payment on his way to his friends house. Two weeks later they show up to disconnect and Matt said.. oops, I forgot, it's in my car (I had asked him previously and he said that yeah, he'd dropped it off). We gave them the payment bill, but had a $25 fee for them coming to the house.. H made Matt pay that fee to teach him not to say he'll do something and then not do it, and then say he did. We do have responsible kids so far.. even Brooke is very responsible and does what she's supposed to most of the time and why shouldnt H live by the rules too? He wasnt mad by the time I got home and I thanked him for calling me right away and taking care of it. The last time something like that happened he hid it from me. I felt bad for not helping because he did ask for my help and didnt hide it, but maybe he'll learn that I do have limits and he cant just push them out of the way because he has "extenuating circumstances".
He was in a good mood when I got home, still miffed at the electric company. D11 and I went downstairs to do a yoga tape. H and S2 joined us..a big surprise! We ended up laughing our butts off because H has never tried yoga at all and he was making comments and groaning sounds the whole time. He told me that he's proud of me sticking with going to the gym and encouraging D11 to be more active. I told her that I'm thinking about Karate and she said that she'd like to do it too. Then I started thinking (Bud, this is your doing I think!), about how when one person changes others might follow and how easily H came down to exercise when we asked him to join us. Then I thought.. hmm hmmm. could it be possible to encourage him to take better care of his health instead of pointing out that he doesnt? Maybe so. But then I'd have to commit to going that course and being a continuous positive influence wouldnt I? I actually think I get tired and flee back to our old cycles too.. I get weary and think gosh, I could just give up and it'd be OK.. I certainly have enough reasons and after all "he's NEVER going to change!", and if he does, we'll be back here in 5 anyway. I think while we're in limbo.. I'm going to challenge that and try to be a positive influence without expecting to be and see what happens. Instead of looking to where I want us to be and seeing that we're not there, or how far we need to go (and could we ever maintain that?!) and getting discouraged I'm truly going to try to be H's friend and see if me changing helps him to change. Even if it's over, it would be better to end it as friends because we're going to have to help each other because we have kids.
Im not so angry today. I've been having big anger issues lately. And I wonder at times if part of it is the company I keep. I have a close friend who is angry most of the time with her H.. unreasonably angry, but I think I'm beginning to pick that up from her too. I need to get that in check. My workouts are helping alot with the stress, and I'm finally to a place where I'll admit I'm angry and need to deal with it. So, we'll see.
Instead of looking to where I want us to be and seeing that we're not there, or how far we need to go (and could we ever maintain that?!) and getting discouraged I'm truly going to try to be H's friend and see if me changing helps him to change.
Okay, my eyes were getting moist by this point, now CUT THAT OUT!
Sheila, you bestride your sitch like a colossus of yore.
I have a close friend who is angry most of the time with her H.. unreasonably angry,
All this time I thought Steff was leaving on weekends to be with Om, but she was obviously heading south to hang out with you! Next time you see her, would you tell her I'd like my Erasure CD back?
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
Okay, my eyes were getting moist by this point, now CUT THAT OUT!
Sheila, you bestride your sitch like a colossus of yore. What a softie you are! Unfortunately, I'm very good at "cutting out" that side of me that maintains a positive attitude towards H and our R. I'm struggling in a BIG way here not to be a WAS. Every day something comes up that is just maddening to me..and I know a part of that is my attitude. For instance, we're about to leave for the weekend to go to OH to visit family. H isnt going because he's supposed to have an interview that's basically a done deal.. hopefully the money will be right. He's not SURE he'll have the interview because the guy whose doing the hiring has had a work crisis and is going to have to fit the interview in today or tomm. It might be that we travel without him and S2 and then the interview doesnt even pan out. Im frustrated. He's been pushing me for a month to get out of town and see my Mom. One part of me knows it's because he wants me to go and see her... get a little Mom TLC and relax, but there's another part of me that thinks he's trying to run me out of town for another reason. So, I'm wondering what he's up to. It's hard for me to live with that doubt.. looking over my shoulder.. trying to determine if he's sincere or if he's full of sh*t. I wanna be the person who BELIEVES, yet I know that I've been that person in the past and it's come back to burn me in a big way. And I see him struggle too because he's afraid that he wont go on the interview and I'll be upset because he couldve went with us.. then I'll wonder what he did for four days and etc, etc, etc. So I think "why are we doing this?" It creates constant turmoil for both of us, and I don't know if I'll ever get to a place of trust with him again. I'd like too, but that little part of me that's in charge of protecting myself is screaming "run like h*ll!" "haven't you been here enough to have had enough?!" I guess the next step is to let go.. and live in a place where it doesnt matter what he does, but I don't know how to get there. How do I get there? I can be a major b*tch, but honestly, I'm so very sensitive that it's hard for me to put up a wall that protects me and let go and distance. I'm sure a lot of people have that problem. I find it hard not to care and not to hurt when our R isnt what it should be, especially when we're hurting each other so much. I find it hard to live with him and know how close we've been and then be in the R we have now. I'd like to be able to live how I believe in living.. to give and love and care with a certain amount of security. I wish I could do it unconditionally, but then I come back to the deal breakers. I come back to the feeling that I've been rejected so many times, how'll this time be different? I've been lied to so much.. it's hard to face it happening much more. I told him that I'd made peace with giving all I had to our R and sacrificing for it. I was in a place where I put our needs before my own.. I understood that he needs some emotional distance.. he needs me to take care of finances and make sure things run smoothly.. I was even in a place where I accepted that our physical and emotional needs are very different and I'd made peace with the weeks between being intimate. It was worth it because I KNEW we loved each other and I had the security that the long term commitment and love was worth the sacrifice of some needs. The payoff of looking at the love of my life and being certain it was true and solid was much more satisfying than knowing his deepest thoughts, having his constant affections, or living with someone who could balance a check book. I just don't know how to get back to that place, because now I know the security was an illusion. I honestly tried my best to be a good wife to him in every way I could be and it wasnt enough. And now I think, if I can't be secure, why can't I at least be happy while it lasts? At least before I could look ahead to years that we could grow closer and have hope that we would get closer and eventually be meeting each other's needs and compromising. Now I look ahead and see me going back to changing who I am for him.. ignoring my needs and hoping that he'll care enough to protect my heart. All I'm asking is that he consider me. That he not do the things that he knows hurt me deeply. Dont lie, dont cheat, dont discount my feelings, dont put us in a place financially where we cant take care of our kids. And oh yeah, try meeting my physical needs a little because Im getting tired of being frustrated..LOL. Not funny, but what's been the least of my worries is starting to really get on my nerves! I do want a man who loves to ML to me.. it's fun, I like it, it makes me feel good, loved and wanted. Is that a crime?
Ugh.. me rambling again and I need to finish packing!
All this time I thought Steff was leaving on weekends to be with Om, but she was obviously heading south to hang out with you! Next time you see her, would you tell her I'd like my Erasure CD back? You're a mess Bud..LOL I'd love for Steff to come hang out with me. In fact, I'd love for her to spend a day with H and see what life is like when you can't be sure your H will catch you when you fall. I'd also tell her that she's probably got it all wrong. I have such a strong feeling that she's going to leave your R and it'll become SO clear to her that you were a solid foundation that she's taken for granted. And I won't even start on how empty she might feel without your love and presence.. it's like giving up air what she's doing. She doesn't notice the air or how vital it is to her because she's never seen it.
I guess the next step is to let go.. and live in a place where it doesnt matter what he does, but I don't know how to get there. How do I get there?
One foot in front of the other, one day at a time. A leap forward here and a little backslide there. And maybe, after all that, it still never happens. But still, you're okay.
I'd like to be able to live how I believe in living.. to give and love and care with a certain amount of security.
And you've earned that. You'll have it one day, because you'll attract it into your life.
Now I look ahead and see me going back to changing who I am for him.. ignoring my needs and hoping that he'll care enough to protect my heart.
And you know that's not a healthy place to be. You have to be who you are for you. Then he has to hold up his end by being who he is for him. Then you can really move forward. I think his insecurity makes it hard for him to be who he is. He can make it, but you can't subjugate your real self in the meantime...that really won't do either of you any good. Who you really are is so great you naturally resent the pressure to be something other.
I do want a man who loves to ML to me.. it's fun, I like it, it makes me feel good, loved and wanted. Is that a crime?
You know it's not! And he loves to ML to you; please believe that for your own sake. His issues get in the way, but that doesn't change the fact.
I can be a major b*tch,
Heh. I'd like to see that. Wonder how you define "major"?
...but honestly, I'm so very sensitive that it's hard for me to put up a wall that protects me and let go and distance.
Isn't that a great part of you? Maybe being aware of it will help enable you to work around it when it becomes a problem. But don't give it up.
Good luck! Anything new? Didn't you just get back from a trip?
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
One foot in front of the other, one day at a time Bud, could you please remind me of this from time to time? You know me, screaming ahead to my destination and arriving there disheveled!
And you know that's not a healthy place to be. Sometimes, well most of the time, you absolutely own the truth. This is it ya know.. the whole thing is so screwed up and unhealthy. I was relaxed and peaceful when I returned from my Mom's now I'm in unhealthy confusion again.
Heh. I'd like to see that. Wonder how you define "major"? What are you doing between 8 and 9PM? Come on over! Really, I've allowed myself to be pushed so far and I have been a major b*tch. It's part of the boundaries being so relaxed and letting myself be backed so far in a corner that I come out with weapons drawn. It's not a pretty sight! But, I'm making headway on this. During a heated convo with H I was actually able to detach enough and consider the drama unfolding... consider the buttons that were being pushed and my reactions. H uses my anger so much.. uses it to justify so much. He's an anger freak.. addict? Not sure what to call it. But I had a long convo with my SIL (his brother's wife) this week and got confirmation on some things I've been suspecting. H's father dealt with his boys with anger, and their mother is not a nurturer at all. So basically, he grew up where the only major emotion being expressed was anger. Other than that, his parents are very stoic. No great shows of love, happiness, enthusiasm, caring, sadness, dispair. I got to have a calm convo with H about this the other night. He accused me of ALWAYS being angry at him and not talking to him, but venting. I know that's not true. I am outspoken and get charged up about stuff at times, but I'm pretty good at calmly talking about my problems and issues too. And, it's almost impossible for me to stay mad for more than 10-15 mins. It takes too much energy. Generally if something upsets me, I voice how I feel and then look to the other person for their response. If it's a defensive response (and it amazes me that H is on the defensive most of the time because I try to word things like "I'm angry because.. or I feel this.. etc, so as not to just come out and say "You make me feel like..."), that's a trigger for me that I need to avoid. Now that I know that, I'm getting better at deflecting the defensiveness and remaining calm. Anyway, I told him that I dont agree that I only express anger or vent on him. In fact, I often approach the subject nicely numerous times before it makes me angry that it didnt register a change, response or something with him. For example (I've posted this before):
Before a counseling session, over dinner, I told H that he has a friendship that makes me uncomfortable. I had mentioned it before, but we didnt discuss it in depth. There's a friend at work that calls him a lot and they play golf together and he's also a friend of OW. During the time we were separated, other than OW, this guy was his buddy. So, right or wrong.. I associate Shane with OW in my mind and get anxious when he's with him. I asked him to not stay in town after work with Shane on the days that he works with OW because it made me anxious. Then I told him that if I could meet this guy it would make it much better for me. Just something about meeting him and him being connected with "us" and not just H and OW. H said he understood and I could meet him and that he wouldnt hang out after work with him until things had calmed down. The next week H did exactly that and he lied about it. He told me he was going to go to look at golf clubs with Shane and I said "ummmm... do you have to?" and he said "well, I won't if you dont want me to" and I said "this is ridiculous, just go ahead and I'll take a deep breath and it'll be OK." I figured just because he had forgotten/blown off our convo on this subject didnt give me a right to be his Mommy and say he can't go out and play. I figured we could talk about it again later, but it wasnt worth reenforcing H's vision of me as controlling. H said no, I dont want to do anything that will make you doubt me so I'll go and get the boys and see you at home. Well, the next time I talked to him, he was at the mall with Shane and lied about it. Said he had stopped to look for a bday present for me. Then I found out he was with Shane, supposedly looking in Dillards.. sounds fishy, but whatever. The point is, it hurt me. I told him how I felt, suggested a solution, he agreed and then did exactly the thing that I expressed I was having a prob with. Then when I was angry because he downplayed my feelings about it and said it was no big deal, he said I was trying to control him, and get angry every time he does anything. I was angry because he didnt have to lie and hurt my feelings, I had told him to go ahead and go and it would be OK, but he insisted on doing it in a way that would only further my doubts and lessen my trust.
Sigh.. no winning this one. And the point that took so long to get to is - H responds to anger, but other forms of communication blow right by him. They don't have any impact on him. I can tell him I'm sad and get no response, but if I'm angry, he starts doing "something". I hate that cycle. I'm not an angry person at heart.. I RARELY get angry with my kids or anyone. H even told the MC that. That I don't raise my voice to the kids or yell at them, but with him, I've learned to use it to communicate. I don't like that! I want to sit down and have an adult convo about problems, agree on a solution, agree to disagree.. whatever, but just something that's not such a stressful drama. So, I've decided to put the brakes on my part of it. When I do that he gets very confused and starts asking if I'm OK a million times.. attempting to communicate and get something out of me, but when I respond calmly, he doesnt get it. He says I'm withdrawing. Evidently he thinks raw emotion is what people are truly thinking and feeling, but a calm talk means I'm witholding my true feelings. I'm just very very thankful that this way of communicating with H isnt spilling over to my other R's. And, I live in fear of a future intimate R because I'm afraid that it'll trigger the pattern I've had with H. I was talking to my friend K about this yesterday and telling her that H says I'm a bad communicator and can't sit down and talk out a problem. She was reassuring that that is BS. And the R that I had after the D wasnt marked with anger.. but still.
Do you ever fear that you're going to re-create the same probs in a future R?
Isn't that a great part of you? Maybe being aware of it will help enable you to work around it when it becomes a problem. But don't give it up. Yes, it is. I need to very carefully consider what I do with my heart. My Dad used to say I wear it on my sleeve and everyone that comes by can do with it what they want. I've built those walls for years. They need to come down and I need to stop opening the door for people who shouldnt have access to those vulnerable parts of me. I mean, the walls are so thick that I have a hard time crying (H hates tears), or expressing sadness. When my aunt died last year and I laid in the bed and cried, D11 was distraught. I realized that she's rarely (probably never, but I'd hate to admit that) seen me cry and it scared her. Something must be really bad if Mom is crying. I'm getting better at expressing genuine emotion, but it's taking time to be honest with myself about what I'm feeling. Like I said, the emotion that H understands in anger.. anything outside of that or too expressive makes him angry and uncomfortable. He doesn't have a good track record of dealing with sad, joyous, scared, frustrated.. etc. Makes for a flat and tense existence for all of us.
I started a new thread. Not sure if I should move to another thread because I don't think we're piecing. More like negotiating H moving out in Jan.
Thanks for being so generous with your time and insight. I appreciate it more than you know. If I stop to think about how a perfect (literally! ) stranger has coaxed me forward during the most desperate time of my life it almost defies understanding. I have close friends, but you and a few others here have been rocks to me and you don't even get the benefit of my bubbly, witty personality (cough) to weaken the blow of my dispairing posts. You're a prince and a gem! Invite me to your Aussie wedding will ya?! he he