I have once again erred in my efforts. H definately has something goin on in the sexual arena and it's eating him up. I'm trying to think rationally about things that are not rational coming from H. He's struggling with his depression and I've been trying to deal with him as if he's functioning normally and he's just not at the moment. I should have stuck with what I told Burgbud earlier about not letting H convince me the problems are just a matter of perception on my part. H is much threatened by me being grounded and he's afraid. He can see that I need progress and for us to work out our probs, but he cant do that right now on any level. he needs to take care of himself first.
It's hard to describe the interaction we had when he came back home this afternoon. It left me saying, huh? He came in and I was cheerful.. he seemed in an OK mood too. The boys went down for a nap and I was chilling in the bedroom watching football. H mentioned catching a nap while the boys were sleeping and I said, OK, get some rest. Then he came and laid by me on the bed. I asked if he was gonna nap there and he said, no, are you? I said no, I'm going to watch this for a minute and then do some stuff in the kitchen. I was laying on the bed. He snuggled up beside me and I kissed him on the cheek and rubbed his hair a minute. Next thing I know, he was all hands.. kissing my neck, etc. Not just innocent affection by any means. He clearly was trying to get me aroused and it worked. Then he got up and started into the LR. I playfully said, "hey the boys are napping" And he said, yeah, maybe I can get some rest and we can have some time after they go to bed tonight. I said, OK. After awhile I got up to go in the kitchen and as I walked through the LR, he said "are you OK?"
M: "yeah, why"
H: "are you angry at me?"
M: "no, why would I be angry at you? are you thinking because of what happened in the bedroom, but then you came out here instead?"
H: what is YOUR problem
M: what are you talking about? I'm fine! If you have a problem that you need to discuss, we can discuss it, but really, would you please stop insinuating something is wrong with me? You've been doing it all week and I've had enough of it
H: Listen, it's not my fault I've been sick! I want you, but I'm having a problem right now and you don't understand
M: Then why havent we discussed the problem, or why havent you mentioned it and clued me in? Because I've been getting a load of crap dumped on me all week and I have no clue why. I havent mentioned sex.. havent asked for it.. havent initiated it.. have been very understanding that you're sick, and still you insist on starting these arguments with me!
H: See, this is why I don't talk to you or mention my problems. We can't just discuss things calmly, you get all upset and angry at me.
M: If you approached me with a problem and wanted to talk about it, I would. But you haven't done that. Why can't you just say "Sheila, we need to talk. I'm having a problem, and this is what it is"
H: Have you ever thought that maybe I'm afraid?
M: Afraid of what?
H: I don't know. I was having problems with my medicine. I've been tired and sick. I'm run down. I don't really know what the problem is, but I know the problem is not that I don't want to make love to you!
M: OKKKKKK. I'm not sure how to respond to that because I had no idea that you're still having desire problems.
H: I don't have problems with desire. I just told you that!
M: OK, performance problems or whatever. I havent mentioned sex at all. The only time you've mentioned it has been either that I'm depriving you, or that you want me, but it's not a good time.. etc. There's been no discussion of medical problem and I'm very confused as to what you want me to say or do right now. I'm really very p*ssed that I've had to deal with this for over a week and I have no reason why. You keep dragging me into this, and now you say you're having a problem, but instead of coming to me to talk or for help, you've been dumping on me. Do you think that asking for help in this way is going to work? That I'll get a clue what's wrong and figure it out.. figure out what to do about it and then fix it for you?
At some point H got irate and flung the bedroom door open and it hit the wall loudly. It was scary and I ended the discussion and told him that I'm not getting into the discussion with him again because he was scaring me. He said "Scaring you? what did I do?"
I told him that if he's still having problems, he needs to go back to the doctor and figure out what is wrong, but that I'm not getting dragged into the drama and have him go off on me for no reason.
Later S5 came running in the kitchen screaming. He had broken open a halloween light stick and got the liquid in his eyes. H started cussing. While I was trying to get the stuff washed out of Ty's eyes and trying to comfort him H was saying "why in the h*ll cant you leave things alone?!, etc" He was making the sitch worse and upsetting Ty more than he was helping. I asked him to leave the bathroom and he stormed out. Yelled at D11 for being in his way. he calmed down a little and came back in and asked if I thought putting him in the shower would help (he had it in his hair too). I said sure. Then he made a dramatic p*ssed off gesture because I was between him and the shower he wanted to start.
UGHHHHH. Something is NOT right with H. His meds.. his mental condition. Something. He's acting like he did right after the bomb dropped. They've taken him completely off of one of his depression meds and I wonder if that's the problem. He's acting like ILYBINILWY again. Not as severely depressed, but he's withdrawn and edgy. He's definately not connecting with the loving feelings he's had for me and we're not communicating. The thing is.. these are H's problems. I love him, but I can only do so much for him. I can't let him destroy me because he's struggling mentally. I try to be supportive, but from out of nowhere come his arrows. I know he has probs and I can ignore the way he's acting and be supportive and loving. I was caught off guard this afternoon because I didnt see how off he is getting again. Now that I recognize that this is most likely a chemical prob for him again, I can deal with him lovingly. But... unfortnately, it's impossible to move forward in our R until his medical problems are sorted out. We're pretty much back to square one because he's acting unstable. And I sorta dread his climb out of the hole again when they get him back on the right meds because then he'll be dealing with a huge amount of guilt. He'll remember how he's treated us and feel awful.. he'll get clingy and scared again and smother me. And he'll shower me with love that I'll start to get comfortable with.. and who knows if it will be permanent, or if he'll start sliding downhill after awhile.
Sigh.. I feel like I'm gonna go insane sometimes... when he acts this way, I question myself so much. So him wanting to drag me back into a comfortable cycle is the depression creeping back into our lives. It's obviously been the monster lurking in our R since the beginning. Now it has a name, but it is SO hard to recognize it when it's been a ghost without a name for so long. I feel like something is terribly wrong with me.. try to figure out what the heck H is trying to do... then it hits me that he's sick and this is a symptom of his illness.
I'm going to talk to our Dr. about a support group for spouses of people with depression. I need to understand what we're dealing with so I can stay sane and not let this illness destroy me and the kids too. It's so easy to blame H for the way he acts and just wish he'd start acting better, but that's unrealistic. He's sick.. he can't help it. I dont know what to do, or what to expect and when he storms around here I think that I don't want to live this way forever. So, after 6 months of gradual progress, once again I'm missing my H and wanting him back in his body. I can look at his eyes and tell he's in a dark place right now. I hurt for him.. he's lost years of his life to this illness. He's told me that, but I'm just seeing how very true that is. To have seen H functioning normally for a few months and now be able to compare it with how he functions when he's out of balance.. it's sad
So, not sure about piecing. I guess we're not piecing.. we're battling depression right now. I'm not going anywhere that's for sure. I'm hoping the Dr. has some answers. It looks like H might be dealing with more than a depressive episode.. I'm afraid that we'll be getting an answer as to whether he has a long term chemical imbalance or whether his body will start producing the chemicals after awhile. Seeing that the cycles we've been in all these years come back into play when he's struggling mentally makes me think it's a long term thing. But, I'm not a psych, so I'll wait and see what the Dr. has to say.
Piglet, I think you are very wise in getting a medical opinion. Did you notice that in your update that he mentioned he was afraid? Fear of performance can be crippeling.
Hmmm. Maybe you need to look into something I saw elsewhere on this board as well. It dealt with scheduling times for intimacy. Not sex, but just being naked together. Time specifically set aside just to be alone together and then starting with small touches, without the pressure of having to go through the full act, working your way towards arousal together over many weeks. I don't know where to find it, but it sounds like a good route and I saw it on the board in the last week or so.
Depression can really mess with the mind and cause severley conflicting emotions and drives. A drive mismatch (I'm horny, why can't I get aroused?) is a good symptom. I'm not a doctor or someone who deals with this problem but it sounds like it would be a good thing to look into.
Did you notice that in your update that he mentioned he was afraid? Fear of performance can be crippeling. I took note that he said he is afraid, but he didn't elaborate on what he's fearing. I asked, but it wasn't a genuine question. I pretty much vented that I'm frustrated by the way he's been acting lately. There have been many opportunities for him to share his feelings and his fears with me. It's not a secret that he might be having problems performing or getting aroused. The last time it was mentioned, I was supportive and understanding, and have been since I knew there was a problem. It seemed to be getting better, but H doesn't share his deepest feelings openly, so I can only guess.
I've read the thread you mention. I can see where the techniques could help a couple reach intimacy together. H and I aren't there really. He's certainly shut down intimacy between us while maintaining the appearance that things are getting better, or havent changed.
I'm very confused right now. I wake up every day not knowing which version of my H is going to be here. This morning, the man who's been shut down the last couple of weeks has followed me around wanting to talk and explain. Unfortuately, I don't have the energy to listen or desire to talk right now. It seems counterproductive at this point because I know whatever he says, it will only be part of the story. I have to ask myself "why have I been making time to discuss our R with this man? why have I listened countless hours and discussed honesty, affection, sex, etc when he clearly was not discussing what is on his mind and heart, but talking just to get through the process.
So, until a future time when he's mentally, emotionally and physically capable of contributing to building an honest R with me, all efforts to sort this out are on hold. I just can't do it right now either. I've said it over and over, but haven't gotten it myself. He needs to work on his problems and his life before we start working on us. Being physically separated is not an option. He needs me for support.. emotionally and financially. I think the plan for him to move upstairs a few weeks ago was a good one and we should have stuck to that. But, I'm a dreamer and thought we could work this out together. I do know if I don't have a way to separate myself from what's going on with him, I'm going to get dragged into the arguments and chaos again and again. I can't do that to myself or the kids. They need at least one parent who knows if they're coming or going on a daily basis.
So, I basically take the caregiver role again and do the best I can with it. It won't be easy because H is already pressuring for more. UGH.. it's frustrating. He doesn't want me to have any boundaries where he's concerned, yet he has walls all around himself for protection. I know that dealing with him in a loving, compassionate way means I'm going to have to take very good care of myself emotionally. But, at the least sign of distance created by ME, H starts pursuing and driving me nuts with his demands. I don't know how to lovingly distance from him without encouraging a barrage of emotions from him. It doesn't make sense to me really. I make myself available to communicate and he shuts down. I distance and stop communicating and he won't stop talking. Of course, I don't believe he's sharing honestly, it's more like convincing.
So, goals for this week.
Talk to the doctor. Be supportive and loving, but take nothing he says to heart. I'd like to ask him to sleep upstairs, but I won't. It will just be rejection to him and won't help the sitch. Take some time for myself to be alone and spend some time with my close friends. Keep going to the gym Whatever H does or says, I won't allow myself to be trapped into believing that things are back to normal. I.e., he's sure to do something to try to "prove" that he's not having problems so we can go back to pretending and he can avoid facing the problems
Wow, what a past few days for you! I know you're seeing this too, but it's obvious from the outside that H is really seeking the comfort of old patterns because he's feeling very off-balance right now. He's got tough changes to make and hard work to do, and if his meds are off he's probably very anxious that he won't be able to come through.
One thing I really admire you for is not letting yourself slide back into your own unhealthy mindset to make it easier to stay in the comfort of your R. You have fought so hard and done so much work on yourself that you deserve to go through life with the emotional health you've been creating. When H is off-kilter he tries to pull you back into the arena where your R has previously existed because he doesn't want to feel threatened. Unfortunately, I don't think there's anything positive you can do to help him. You have to stay healthy until he believes the only path to an R with you is to pull himself up to where you are. That's tough on you and requires a lot of will power. And though you vacillate a little bit in your posts, you always end up back where you're centered, and you know what you have to do. So my main purpose in posting this is to tell you that you're doing great! I wish it was easier and more fun to do the right thing. It doesn't seem like doing the right thing should make you sad. But in the end doing the right thing always gets you the best result (or else it would be called "screwing up"!).
So stay strong and keep letting H deal with his own issues with your loving support.
Good luck!
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
I lurk on your thread often. I wish I had your answers for you. My H also deals with depression, so I have an inkling of how it feels.
Although I have no pointers, I figured the one thing I could do is to send a little warm fuzzy your way to help with your own emotional well being. I agree that you should do your best to take care of yourself through all this. And I know, in your sitch, even doing that is complicated!
Hey Bud I'm always glad to see your words of wisdom here. Any idea how I can move from being a crutch to being a person in H's eyes?
until he believes the only path to an R with you is to pull himself up to where you are. How is this accomplished?
And though you vacillate a little bit in your posts, you always end up back where you're centered, and you know what you have to do. Gosh, I wish this were true. I am centered, but not sure what to do. If I distance it brings out the pursuit. If I don't, it maintains the status quo and I have a hard time being open and detached without getting caught in the drama. How can I detach without sending a signal that I'm detaching? I need to allow him space to figure out his problems, yet not send him into a panic that focuses him on our R right now.
Have a lot to think about. Maybe I act as if everything is OK, dont initiate R talks EVER (have been doing good at that lately), stay busy with the kids and family stuff. Is this where being a teflon rock comes in? Be open and available, but not pursue the R at all and see if he figures out what's missing and how to get there from here?
I'm going to stick to my goals I set, but something is missing. He's very pursuing today because he wants me to say that everything is going to be fine and that I agree he doesn't have "problems" right now. That we're making progress etc. Does that mean I need to validate what he's saying and let him have his interpretation of our R without disagreeing with it right now?
Obviously our couple time hasnt been going well the last month. Maybe because it's pressure for H that he can't deal with, and I expect it to be "couply" and it just hasn't been. So, I have to identify the cheeseless tunnels and get away from them. Any alone time has turned out poorly for us lately and usually ends in a disagreement.
I've been thinking about our argument yesterday and how poorly I handled it, and how I contributed to it. There were a million things I could've done to not be dragged into that, but I went along with our usual patterns and took the bait. So, I need to be prepared. Knowing that H is going to be approaching me like this and there's no way around it, I need another way to handle it. Maybe if I had answered his first question and then changed the subject:
H: Are you OK M: Yeah, I'm fine. Hey, I was laying in there wondering, have you talked to S19 lately? Or I couldve said "Im fine, how about you? How's the headache? Maybe a short nap will help.. I'll be in the kitchen.
Anything like that to turn the focus off of me and take me out of a position of being defensive.
I also need to find ways for us to spend time together that isn't TIME TOGETHER. We do pretty good when we're busy.. but if we're just hanging out, it's a dangerous sitch right now. We need time that isn't R centered. He's been talking about Christmas and Thurs wanted to go to the toy store and look around. We didnt do that, but we should have. This afternoon might be rough depending on if he naps when the boys nap or not. If he does, then good. But if he doesn't, I might get D11 out for awhile and then ask him if he wants to go to the toy store later. Just to do something that keeps his mind off of our R and what he needs to be saying or doing. We actually need to clean up the cars, so that's an idea too. Or maybe we could all go to a movie.. I'll have to see what he wants to do.
I'm going to thank him for taking the kids to church and giving me time to relax. He was miffed that I didnt want to go and thinks it's because I'm mad at him. It's not, I just didnt want to go (tired today), and didnt go just to keep him from thinking I'm mad.
So, two new goals to add to the list. Deflecting his prying questions or attempts to get me to discuss the R. Spending time with him that's relaxing with no pressure to be intimate.
Act as if things are fine, act CHEERFUL.. not my strong point right now, but I'll do it! Be supportive and encouraging and stay out of cheeseless tunnels! I know he takes talking about future plans (holidays, etc) as a sign I'm still committed to our R. So instead of saying that I'm committed and still want to work it out (because then that opens the door to an R discussion), I'm going to start planning for the holidays as if things are fine. He's said several times if I've expressed doubts "but, you were talking about taking a trip together, and now you're not sure about us?" So I know he pays close attention to future talk.
Not gonna mention the Dr., his health, meds, etc. He seems to be trying hard to convince me that he's not having problems although he's said that he is... so that's a tunnel I'm not going into! Gonna let him figure out his health problems privately and agree that he's doing better if he says so. He is doing better.. just not as good as he was.
Talk to the doctor. Be supportive and loving, but take nothing he says to heart. I'd like to ask him to sleep upstairs, but I won't. It will just be rejection to him and won't help the sitch. Take some time for myself to be alone and spend some time with my close friends. Keep going to the gym Whatever H does or says, I won't allow myself to be trapped into believing that things are back to normal. I.e., he's sure to do something to try to "prove" that he's not having problems so we can go back to pretending and he can avoid facing the problems
See, you know what to do!
I'm glad the hot shower chilled you out (ironically). As to how to make him see that he has to pull himself up to where you are in this R, I don't think you can do it actively. You just avoid giving in to something that's not as healthy until he has no choice but to join you. But it's gotta be his doing. You've been leading him to water...
So anyway, stay happy with yourself. You have lots of reasons to act cheerful. You have a great idea in laying out future plans to increase his security level. I love how you're gonna try to change the subject on him when discussions head in a direction you don't want them to go (I need to remember that one myself, big time).
Much butt is being kicked here by you, Sheila. When your leg gets tired, just take a hot shower!
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
AAACCCK! It all sounds really good in type, but I'm having a hard time sticking with my goals and detaching emotionally. We did go and look at Christmas stuff this afternoon, and it was going great. Actually got a bunch done together. H seemed fine, I was feeling fine. Until the walk across the parking lot. And I can't even remember what he said to me, but it pushed a button so hard, I went into orbit. Not good. I think I let every frustration I've felt in 7 months come spilling out on the ride home. So much for changing the subject! I do remember the thing that got under my skin the most.. and it was him trying to convince me (without prodding by me), this may have been what set me off - that he wants me and is trying to meet my needs. Now, I don't know why he started that convo.. I was happy and talking about the kids. But he reached out to touch my shoulder and say something about that and I couldnt take it. I did ask if we could discuss it later, but he just kept going. Saying how much he loves me and loves ML to me and is sorry that he is having probs now. I should have met that with compassion and understanding, but I didnt. Instead, I flashed back to every time in the last 18 years that he's rejected me, and to the day the bomb dropped and how unloved and unwanted I felt knowing he had sex with someone else. Needless to say, it all spilled out in a very ugly way... and he returned it. He said the problem is my lack of understanding for what he's going through. That pretty much brought up a lot of other emotions and words from me about how understanding I HAVE been and how long I've taken his crap.
Not sure how to dig out of this one and get in the right direction. I feel horrible and defeated. I feel very ver tiny that his affections or lack of affections make me feel so unloved and unwanted. It was an issue the first few years of marriage, then I buried my feelings and coped and thought I was doing fine over the last 6 years, but evidently, I've been stuffing how I really feel about his low desire for me. And, after things being so wonderful (honeymooning), to be facing the same problem again ticks me off. I mean.. I got used to ML very little and had the emotions under control. Then I got used to having that need satisfied and am not happy to have that taken away again. I feel soooo selfish. He feels emasculated I'm sure. And I wonder why we're even trying to patch this back together. We have so much bad history, I don't see how we'll every overcome it and be happy together again.
Have been doing His Needs/Her Needs. My 5 basic needs are honesty, communication, affection, sex and financial support. H doesnt meet any of them..not even close. He's pointed out though that he's trying and that he has been affectionate (OK), and met some of the other needs.. domestic support, and recreational companionship. Those are HIS needs. He pretty much got p*ssed that I didn't count those as meeting my needs just because they arent my top five. Sigh.. we've been reading the book for two weeks and he still doesnt understand what the goal is.
Anyone want to guess which lovebusters I exibited today? Selfish demands and angry outbursts. I figure the love bank is sitting at negative and I have no clue how to start depositing again.
Just pray.... tomorrow I'll think about those goals again and maybe a way to deal with the anger and rejection Im obviously feeling and hopefully avoid any future temper tantrums on my part.
Wow! I went through that crap Friday and it took two days for the winds to blow it down to you. At least it seems to have missed RNC on the way.
So, hey. Acknowledge the set back and move forward. It almost seems to me like H was begging for this. He's been pushing you pretty hard lately. I hate to recommend this to anybody, but maybe you can take a page from my W's book...I'm pretty absent-minded so when I think of something she ought to know, I want to tell her right away. It's generally something small, so if I'm interrupting her reading a book or talking with the kids, I figure that's better than if I forget. But now if she tells me she doesn't want to hear it right now and I tell her it's just something small and not unpleasant, she says something like, "Are you *ever* going to respect me enough to leave me alone when I'm not ready to talk?" And I say, "I'm sorry; you're right." Well, I say that now. Not that long ago I would have been really pissed. But you know what? She *is* right.
Now, I'm guessing you can come up with a more pleasant way to say it than she does, but the point holds. You've voiced your boundary, now you have to enforce it. It might be tough the first few times but eventually he'll believe you when you say it's best to talk later. And that will probably be a relief for both of you.
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
I'm always glad to see your words of wisdom here. Any idea how I can move from being a crutch to being a person in H's eyes? 
