Thought I'd start a new thread before I get locked out. It's a good stopping place for the old one. Hopefully this thread will find me more focused on working solutions and less venting about my unhappiness and H not changing. Just might be my first "real" DB thread! Look out H, I've decided to finally commit to our R and see what happens.
I just realized that the last thread with all my waffling about met a goal. I'm ready to move on with H and leave the past behind. Let's see if my PMA holds out!
Had a good evening last night with H after the kids went to bed. He was tired so I petted him a little. I can tell he has a lot on his mind right now. He seems to be backsliding a bit back into his depression. I asked if he thinks going back to two doses of his meds would help. He's going to try it, but I know the side effects drive him crazy (shaky hands, and nervous energy, having a hard time remembering things).
He started reading DR a couple of weeks ago, but hasnt picked it up in a few days. I asked him if he wanted to read a little together before we went to bed and he said "sure". He had mentioned before when we were arguing that I should share what I'm reading with him and help him rather than wait for him to bring it up. OK, I can try that!
We read just a little about the myths, number one, about does arguing and anger mean a marriage is doomed to fail. We talked about how we express our anger differently. And he raised his eyebrows when he was reading about the effects of keeping feelings bottled up inside. I had a chance to tell him how I feel when he doesn't share with me. He had a chance to tell me how he feels when I let my feelings bottle up and then vent them all at once. He said he understands the trust isn't there for me right now and he can deal with that. But he did share something that bothers him a lot. He said it hurts him when something happens and I automatically think the worst possible outcome.
For instance, a guy that he works with left a message on our voicemail saying he was calling to see how the test turned out. It upset me a little because I had no idea who Steve is..never heard of him. I have issues with H not sharing his work life with me at all. I've never known anyone that he works with unless it's a friend we have outside of work to begin with. He goes to work and his experience there is like a black hole to me. After the bomb, our friend Danny said he acts different at work, and now I feel like I don't know who H is when he's not with me. After hearing the message and thinking about it, and remembering how H said he hope he doesnt have to go back to work there after his vacation (hopes to be offered another job), I started wondering if he failed his re-certification test. Ugh...I asked him that and he got very upset. He said the guy was calling to see how my stress test went. And I said "why would someone I dont know care about my stress test?" So, it bothers him when I ASSume the worst. I need to work on that!
Had a bummer of a prob come up this morning. I'm hoping that I can act as if it's not bothering me today! Pre-bomb H and I had differences in our SD levels. I was always HD and he was LD. We ML about 3 times a month maybe. I didnt like that, but got used to it. Thought we were in a rut or something, but have learned that making an issue of it doesnt help. I posted in the sexual issues board that it took it's toll on me. I started detaching during because any time I tried to assert myself in bed it turned out badly. He had his way to do it and any deviation affected his ability to perform. Then after the bomb, he said we were in a rut and needed to spice things up. (Duh!) I couldn't believe he said that to me because I was always the one who wanted to try different things, but whatever! I've posted that one of the side effects of his meds, or him coming out of depression has been HD from him. It's been wonderful. It's also been hard for me to adjust, but it's gotten easier for me to relax and enjoy his revitalized sexuality. I was getting pretty durn comfortable with that!
The last month-6 weeks have been slow in that area for us. He was sick, we had a lot going on with the kids going back to school, then I was feeling bad, so not much going on in the bedroom. The last time we ML, I noticed that he wasnt as supercharged as he had been for a couple of months, but didnt really think much about it. He also hasnt been initiating ML, but he's always been considerate if he thinks Im tired or not feeling well.
Well this morning I found out why I guess, but the way I found out kind of hurts. LSS, he couldnt finish. He says it's the meds, and that he's seen a difference in his desire the last month. He hasn't mentioned it to me, and I found out during ML. I cried a little, because that's definately not what my self esteem needs right now (I know that's selfish and not what he needs right now!). But he said it's not me, etc. I believe that, but what I can't understand is him not mentioning it and letting me find out that way. It goes back to him not sharing with me. I find out about his problems whether money related, his family, sexual, whatever when they impact me and not before. Would it have been so bad for him to say "hey, I dont know what's going on with my meds, but I havent been feeling aroused lately" He spilled all of that in my lap this morning when I was trying to re-group and had a zillion things running through my mind. "Is he seeing OW again?" "Am I not desirable" "Was all his desire the last few months just from the meds", etc.
Anyway, we're going to work on some projects together around here. H seems in a pretty good mood and I'm not going to bring up this morning to him. I feel sad that we might be resuming our LD lifestyle again, but for right now, I cant even deal with that. I'm just thankful we had a good talk last night.
It is difficult not to take lack of intimacy personally - chin up, you seem to be able to see the bigger picture, and in the long haul, its the results that count, right?
Have you tried having a get-together for his colleagues - entertain them on your turf so H can see you as part of his circle?
Hi slowly, thanks for the encouragement! It has been rough here since that post. H isn't sleepin in our bed, and I would say that's a bad thing, but I think it might be space that we both need right now. We both want our R to work, but that is something that can't be rushed as we keep falling back into our old habits. We're both trying hard to change, but it's hard to admit that we are going to have to wait and build our R into something more positive.
The get-together idea might work! I mentioned this for his bday in Jul, but it was so soon after OW. I'm hoping the holidays will give us an opportunity to do that. We'll see. He has a need for that 'privacy' in his life. Maybe it's something that he has that I can't try to control! I'm probably going to have to do a lot to prove to him that he can trust me. He has said that he's trying to protect me (OW), but I think he's afraid it will just add fuel to the fire and I'd find a reason to be upset if I saw into that part of his world.
It is difficult not to take lack of intimacy personally Yes, almost impossible. We both have intimacy issues. We try to be close, but deep down, we have the same negative tapes running in our heads that keep us from achieving that emotional closeness. H said the other night that maybe part of the problem is that we're not intimately connected and we need to work on that first.
When we get close, I start looking for signs that it's safe to be close to him. But right now, with his depression and the struggles that go with it, there's a lot of work to be done. It really isn't safe for me to depend on him to take care of me emotionally. He doesn't have the skills. He's said it over and over, but I've missed it. He's said "I need to learn", and "I'm working on it". That's a willingness to change and learn, so it's a start.
For my part, I have so much work to do on myself. I crave intimacy and to get that need met, I relax my boundaries. For instance, I can't feel safe with someone that hides things from me and doesn't share. I've said that before... lying and secrecy is a deal breaker for me. When I attempt to stay intimately close to H, but don't expect him to have an open heart, I set myself up for disappointment and hurt. He just can't do it right now, and because of that, he's not someone that I can have that kind of R with right now.
I love him, I care for him and I think we could have a great M. For now though, all we can maintain is a loving friendship. Until we learn to respect each others feelings and appreciate what we do have, it'll be very hard to build it into more. I hope to encourage him to open up to me, and to become someone that he can do that with. It's not in his nature, so I'm not sure if that can change. He said the other night that I know more about him than anyone. That's a start. I believe he wants to be emotionally close to someone, and by all appearances he wants that with me.
We need to build trust. I used to have a sign on the fridge that said "Home is a Safe Place". Our home hasn't been a safe place for either of us in over a year. It should be a safe place for him to recover from his depression with help instead of judgement. It should be a safe place for me to not wonder if H is hiding something that is going to hurt.
He said he is going to seek more intense counseling. He's suggested that I go to. Not sure if I will or not. I'm learning that digging up the past and focusing on what went wrong brings me down. H has given me space the last couple of days and it's done wonders. It keeps me from working so hard to build closeness that we can't have right now. It keeps me from resenting my efforts and not seeing results. I gave it everything I had for four months while he was sitting back and I resent that. The last two months have been a downward spiral for me brought on by that resentment. So, I'm going to give what I can. I have an easy time being a loving friend to him, but anything more than that, he's going to have to meet me halfway.
I haven't expressed any of this to H. His sleeping in the other room was on a bad note. He's not sulking and we're getting along fine right now. Loving distance. I don't know how to talk to him about this or if I should. I'm afraid that he'll see my pulling away as rejection. It isn't. We just aren't able to maintain the level of closeness that we both want right now. It puts him in a position of hiding things from me so that he doesn't lose that, and it puts me in a position of trying to feel safe with someone who isn't honest.
Any suggestions on how to handle a discussion about this with him? I'm also afraid that he'll get comfortable with this arrangement, but I can't control that. I'm afraid that we'll get along so well as friends and parents that he'll choose to stop there where it's safe and comfortable. Or maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way, it needs to be safe and comfortable as friends and parents before it becomes safe and comfortable in a more intimate relationship. I do know after awhile, I'd become dis-satisfied and want more. If I'm not visibly unhappy, he thinks things are going great and our R is where it should be and back to normal. But inside, I might be feeling that I'm being patient and waiting, but not satisfied that we're where we need to be. Is that the cart before the horse? Anna mentioned that I might be messing up building our R by trying to work on it. And maybe that's what it'll take. Allowing H to have the security of me being happy with how things are today, but striving a little every day to make it more without pushing the issue.
What do you think? Suggestions from the experienced would be appreciated!
I sincerely want to change and keep our M. I have been wanting H to make the changes and thinking it will make things good between us, but I'm part of the cycle and it's going to take me facing my demons too.
I don't have any good advice on how to deal with H during this time. I really admire how you're handling this physical intimacy "backslide" positively, even though these things can dampen our emotions despite our best intentions.
There are still a bunch of days to go before the end of the year; maybe you could take a little R break for, say, 5 to 7 of those days? Just recharge the batteries and set your keen mind to analyzing a different topic? Or even relax your mind entirely for awhile (apart from work, of course ).
Just a suggestion. You've got a great handle on where you are and where you want to go so maybe the best advice yo could get is to just keep following your own nose.
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
There are still a bunch of days to go before the end of the year; maybe you could take a little R break for, say, 5 to 7 of those days? Just recharge the batteries and set your keen mind to analyzing a different topic? Or even relax your mind entirely for awhile (apart from work, of course ). You never fail to hit the nail on the head Bud. I think I've had a sort of emotional breakdown the last week. Spent more time in bed and by myself than I have in the last year, and that's not like me. Our family Dr. that first treated H for depression warned that I needed to take care of myself or I'd be taking a fall soon too. He knows our family well, he went to HS with H and he and his wife are church friends. He also warned that we could see some problems physically, and that we were having a honeymoon phase that would end before the R work was finished. It was a blow to realize his advice was true, but comforting to know this is part of the process for many couples.
So, here we are. I've hit a wall emotionally and can see that it's impossible to maintian this level of vigilance on our R. H sees it too, and I think the backslide in my attitude is giving him insight into how much I've had to maintain, and how important it is for him to be an active part in fixing this. I just can't do it for both of us. I think in the last two weeks it's been as hard to get through to me that this isn't hopeless as it was to get through to him six months ago.
Relax my mind.. that's great advice and I needed to hear that. I think my nose gets me into trouble..haha. Could ya just visit the thread every once in awhile, tell me to take a chill pill, back off and quit thinking? I need to find that joyfull, carefree place I was in before my life came unglued last year. I have a hunch I'm not going to find it until I relax and let go even more. Thanks for the advice! As always, you're a prince!
I haven't been on for the last week but I just caught up on your posts today. I'm very much in the same place as you. I had one of my world famous, overly speculative and overly generalized but ALWAYS ineffective conversations about sharing and trust with my H this very morning. Needless to say he got very confused and anxious and angry and then I got angry and hurt and blah, blah, blah...
I'm sure you can totally picure the scenario. Point being is I still don't trust our R and I am not jumping back in until we do get to a point where we have begun to address some of these issues.
I realized this morning that I'm still very much having difficulty articulating my fears so that I am able to move beyond them and ask for my H's help to address them in our R. Although, I did totally see the trigger in this particular episode. OW issues. I saw something on his computer that I thought was possibly related to her. Granted I don't have absolute proof but it was enough for me to run with it.
Point being is that trust is really hard to define. Simply saying that you don't trust someone isn't enough. In my case, I really need to examine why I am so caught up on one or two issues that seem to define trust in my R.
Both my DB counselor and my therapist have said to me, "so what if H was friends with OW for the rest of his life? He comes home to you every night, his life is committed to you, etc... You are the woman in his life, not she."
I guess what I am trying to say is I know how hard it is to trust someone whose track record in that department is less than exemplary but there is a lot more to it than the one or more instances where the trust has been broken. It's the can't see the forest for the trees kind of sitch.
I'm glad to hear that you are making a renewed commitment to working on R. I'll keep checking in on your progress but from what I have read so far it's sounding really good!
Point being is that trust is really hard to define. Simply saying that you don't trust someone isn't enough. In my case, I really need to examine why I am so caught up on one or two issues that seem to define trust in my R. hmmm.. I've never thought about this, but it's definately worth some thought. H says he tells the truth 98% of the time and doesnt mean to hurt me even if he knows its wrong to deceive me. And considering the things that he does that are outstanding for our R, I need to think about this too.
Both my DB counselor and my therapist have said to me, "so what if H was friends with OW for the rest of his life? He comes home to you every night, his life is committed to you, etc... You are the woman in his life, not she." It's funny that you should mention this. When I asked H how he got through after our D and I had a R with someone while we were apart. And I asked him how he dealt with knowing I was with someone, and still saw them at work, he said just that "You came home to me every night. I had the opportunity to make you happy, so I focused on that. You were here and as long as you walked through that door every night.. I was the person you wanted to be with - period." He didnt leave himself room to doubt me, wonder, or worry about the future. He said it was hard, but at least he didnt spend time tearing down our times together with his doubts. I wish often that I would be that strong for him right now and not let my emotions erode the positives in our R.
Hang in there GF! I'll visit your thread in a bit and see what's going on.
JOURNALLING:
Just a quick journal. The last couple of days have been good. Started with a crying jag the night before last. H was sleeping alone in the bedroom upstairs and his alarm woke me up at 3:30 (kids!). I couldnt go back to sleep, so I went up and crawled in bed beside him. He held me and said "this feels nice". I went back to my bed after about 15 mins, but I thought it was nice to be held awhile too.
Yesterday morning H asked to talk to me and we had a nice long talk. Very calm talk and he shared a lot of what he's feeling with me. He isn't clingy or needy at all, but he is saying that he loves me and wants to spend the rest of his life with me. We discussed some of the ways that I feel he's been dishonest in what he says and does. He had "excuses" for alot of it, but I think he's realizing the toll it's taken on me. He seemed worried and asked me to let him do the work, but to give us a chance. He said he wants the "Sheila he's known for all these years back." It's reminiscent of me saying "I want my H back" when he was in his deep funk. It was an eye opener to me.. how much my attitude has changed and how I've allowed our sitch to impact me. Not good!
We took the kids shopping for winter clothes. H was WONDERFUL all day. He doesnt enjoy shopping. He didnt lose his cool once all day long. He ran interference with the boys and let me do what I needed.. helping them try on, etc. He waited patiently while we got our hair cut. He took the boys to the toy store so D11 and I could jewelry shop on our own. Was all and all.. just relaxed and being a Dad. Didnt hurry us ONE time.. yahoo! Then I got the kids and let him do all the sports and university shops. He smiled so big when D11 and I returned and I said "OK, you take off and look at hats, or whatever and we'll catch up". By the time we left the mall, my cold meds had worn off and I was sneezing. He stopped and got picked up medicine (without me asking) and a drink so I wouldnt have to wait until I got home to have it. So thoughtful
Then last night I stayed and had a quiet evening with the boys while H took D11 to her game. Didnt want me or S2 out in that chilly air after being so sick this week. He called a couple of times while he was there just to chat and see how the boys were doing (they were a handful yesterday, but precious! S2 dropped his drawers in the middle of Sears because he thought I wanted him to try on his pants..lol)
We hadnt really touched the last few days at all. A quick hug maybe or a peck on the cheek. Not much physical contact the last week. But H asked if he could come to bed with me last night... said he missed sleeping with me. He has a Dr. appt Monday to get a physical and see what the problem is with ML. At one point yesterday he hugged me so gently and reassured me that the problem isnt with me and that he thinks I'm more desirable and sexy with every day that goes by. He was so sincere and sweet about it. Last night he offered to give me a back rub and ended up . Of course! Still not entirely back to normal, but there is such a quality of caring about H that I've missed for a long time. In fact, it might not have been as heated as the last few months have been, but on an emotional level, it was much more. One of the counselors told him that a wife should be treated like a most precious possession and her heart handled with care. That's how H has been treating me, and it's refreshing.
Today he went to the library and picked up the marriage builder books. We looked at the web site a little last night. Had talked about reading it together before, but H didnt really ever pick the material up. But, I just talked to him awhile ago and he's been reading already. He said he really wants us to read it together. So, I'm hopeful.
Still a little worried about his depression and meds. But all in all, if I can keep my PMA, H is trying so hard to show me that he wants our M to work. I just pray that he is without temptation to lie for a little bit anyway. But, I know that I need to build his trust that I can handle whatever he needs to tell me and work through it with him.
Oh, and have to say quickly after melting down with focusing on our R so much. I'm learning that I need to be doing things that make me happy and healthy. I drove my car to work for the first time in a few weeks this morning. H usually takes it because it gets better gas mileage. I discovered that I really LOVE my car and miss driving it. I was so happy by the time I got to work..listening to my tunes (CD player in the van is not working!)... I miss my music. It really heals my soul. I'm going to drive home with the sun roof open and the music cranked too! And, I told H that I miss my car.. and he said.. "then you should drive your car. I don't care about the gas money" Yay.
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. Of course! Still not entirely back to normal, but there is such a quality of caring about H that I've missed for a long time. In fact, it might not have been as heated as the last few months have been, but on an emotional level, it was much more. One of the counselors told him that a wife should be treated like a most precious possession and her heart handled with care. That's how H has been treating me, and it's refreshing.