Lou, I happen to share your values re: material things, though not your packrattedness.
I can see that BB's attitude is a big part of your problems. MrH and I have our differences, but our core values match. We do not argue about what is right or wrong (except as to the wrongness of leaving a woman in her bed, unsatisfied, as our pal Zorro stated).
Lou, I COMPLETELY understand what you are saying, but I imagine what your wife hears is that you won't LET her have things. To be honest, I jumped in and started reading and all i read was that you wouldn't let her buy a car that she really wanted. Now, once I went back and read, I can totally see where you are coming from. Talk about a rock and a hard place. On one hand, it IS her money too, she should be able to enjoy life and have things that she wants, she shouldn't have someone to tell her she can't have something...but on the other.....when does it get excessive and destructive? I think it becomes a matter of control because anything you do to try to help will be seen as control. I didn't see so much of a problem till I read a recent post of yours about the money she had spent on QVC and all of that....that to me, signals an addiction of some sort.
What would Dr Phil say? An episode about a year ago pops into my mind where there was a young couple, she wanted to get married, he wanted to get married but he couldn't see tying his life/checkbook to someone who spent money like she did. It was a classic addiction scenario where she had boxes and bags of things wtih tags still on them. Dr Phil got her to promise not to buy ANYTHING that wasn't used to eat, or keep a roof over their heads for something like 6 months, and at that time if she had been sucessful, boyfriend would propose with the huge diamond ring that Dr Phil would buy them.
I don't know if that makes sense or is even relevant....but what I do know is that in teh same way that feelings ARE feelings and because they are different doesn't make them wrong, you can tell her all day that the car she has is perfectly fine but that doesn't change her wanting the new car.
I wonder if there isn't a way to indulge a bit but have limitations at the same time. Agree to purchases and when she wants something, you two think it over and then make a decision...some things she wants she will get, other things she will not.
For example...she has a perfectly good car. I can understand wanting a different one...I have a perfectly good one too and even though common sense says i don't want a car payment, etc etc etc, that doesn't stop me from really REALLY wanting a new car. Can she get money out of her other one? If she can get X amount out of her other one and you can weasel the dealer down on the one she wants, would it be a worthwhile deal? On the other hand, that $5000 purse...well....that might not be a wise buy. Lets sit on that one for 2 weeks and see if we still want to buy it then.
The point is to make her feel like she can have all she wants, but by making wise choices in what she gets. She will feel 100% better about what she has bought.
I don't know if any of that made sense...I think I'm more rambling than anything at this point.
((hugs))
Becca
Email & MSN Messenger: Becca_1975@msn.com
Yesterday Is History
Tomorrow is a Mystery.
Today is a Gift.
That Is Why It Is Called "The Present"
Quote: except as to the wrongness of leaving a woman in her bed, unsatisfied, as our pal Zorro stated).
are you rubbing it in to us guys who don't get enough sex and too much attitude ,HP. Naw, I know you would never do something like that. You are too sweet for any of that game playing. Kidding aside.
Quote: MrH and I have our differences, but our core values match.
that sure makes the road to problem solving smoother. I am glad for you and the girls.
If I went along with BB's ideas from way back when and spent the money in our retirement fund we would not have 70% of it.
Quote: I didn't see so much of a problem till I read a recent post of yours about the money she had spent on QVC and all of that....that to me, signals an addiction of some sort.
That has been going on for over 5 years. I just listed the 3 highest years. Most likely $15,000 spent there since she started watching. What do we have, a couple of pot and pan sets, several electric cookers, many slice and dicers, some glass trivets, some faded Kinkade pictures, some embroidered clothes, shoes and purses that almost fill a closet.
We have one daughter that is in almost the same boat with QVC shopping. Buying more creates a desire to have more. There is no end to what people want until someone is in serious financial trouble or someone like me is about to leave. Daughter will be paying for her purchases for 5 years, that is if she quits today. Fat chance.
Quote: What would Dr Phil say?
Lou, you think you can do all of this work you have inventory for, Not likely, maybe half. BB, what posessed you to buy 10, electric cookers and 5 pot and pan sets? You having company over? I hear the last company you had over to eat was several years years ago (relatives come every year for Thanksgiving but rarely anyother time unless I invite them and I cook).
So this is one reason I drag my feet on the car. BTW the car choice changes monthly, from a hybrid Honda to a Hummer. I know if we did buy a car, it woud be the wrong one in about a year and would have to look at a different one again.
I have only watched him less than 20 times but he speaks my language when on topics I relate to. "don't let your aligator brain/mouth overload your canary butt" was my favorite.
Quote: Until recently she contributed some of her income and spent most of it on herself. One MC we went to said that is how it should be. I did not know it at the time but the C was a "womans issues C".
What's the setup now? She contributes more? less? I read on Harley's site that it isn't uncommon for women to think that the man's income should go to the household and whatever money she earns is "hers". Although it may not be uncommon, I still find it a questionable attitude.
Lou, you were forced at a very early age into responsibility that was more than a child should have to bear. I think you've been impacted in a similar way as folks who went through the Depression. Do you feel some resentment toward your wife that she has not only had it easier, but she gets a whopping inheritance from her family, a family from which she was estranged? From what you wrote, I get some whiffs of resentment from you, not just on her spending habits, but on her familial background.
What is your fear in this? Is it more than disagreement on her excessive shopping and throw it away actions? Are you concerned that your retirement is going to disappear through her fingers?
No flames from me, as HP pointed out, you're dealing with core value issues. I just think you need to winnow through what you are feeling and thinking in regards to this issue. Determine what your bottom line is. I also think you need to take steps to protect your portion of retirement/finances, because I really think you need to get out of the position of being the arbiter of spending. That doesn't mean that you can't tell your wife that her excessive spending is impacting the relationship in a negative way. I'm guessing that the control you keep attempting to exert is also impacting the relationship in a negative way from her viewpoint. And resentment tends to be detectable, so she's probably not unaware that you have some issues in regards to her having it easier than you because of family. I do recognize the need to protect your finances as much as possible for your future needs during retirement. I also think that you need to examine how your past may be impacting your present in a negative way. Being frugal is an admirable thing, but it can be taken to extremes. Do you think you are extreme in this regard?
Quote: What's the setup now? She contributes more? less?
Lou 100%: Heat, electricity, 2 phone lines, 2 cell phones, realestate taxes, house payments in the past-no more payments, going out to eat, satalite TV, newspaper, previous car purchases
Lou75%/BB25% general groceries, house maintenance supplies and remodeling costs, car repairs, insurance and gas,
50/50: income taxes, speciality groceries,
BB 100%: pet supplies/food, vet care, BB's clothing and personal care, QVC/LL Bean/DanburyMint/other shopping sites, kitchen gadgets, DVD/CD's, any car from here on,
Quote: it isn't uncommon for women to think that the man's income should go to the household
The "womens issues C said the man should provide the basic support for the woman and the woman needed to buy her own extras. I think it is also our basic mentality from childhood examples we both lived with in the neighborhood.
Quote: I think you've been impacted in a similar way as folks who went through the Depression.
Eventhough the depression was over by WWII, for my family it did not end until I went to work for a couple of years (1962). Then in 1981 I had my first back injury and finances were tight for a year. Again in 1986 I had more work related, back injuries and this caused financial problems until 1994.
Throughout this time, we lived on what came in. Our retirement money was not that much but really started to increase due to stock market trends in the 90's and the mutual fund we were in was one of the top 5. We finally got lucky.
Quote: Do you feel some resentment toward your wife that she has not only had it easier,
NO resentment here.
Quote: get some whiffs of resentment from you, not just on her spending habits, but on her familial background
My resentments stem from her attitude of being short changed as a kid some how. Her family went on vacations to natural parks, the ocean, and the like. But it was not disneyland or something like it, so she was not happy. She got ride aches and her folks never went that far in a day. Basically, compared to me, she had it easy but acts like she had it hard. It's the fact she does not see what she had was normal or a little above the average is what bothers me. I wish she would see she had so much compared to some people.Can I say I have trouble with people who always look at what they don't have.
I guess, because she did not have what the richest kids had, she feels short changed. BB still wonders why we can't live like some of the neighbors that have jobs that pay twice what we earn sometimes.
Quote: Is it more than disagreement on her excessive shopping and throw it away actions? Are you concerned that your retirement is going to disappear through her fingers?
her excessive shopping and throw it away actions are the main problems. I am tough enough to take charge the finances if they get into trouble because of her excessive spending. I would do a legal seperation in a heart beat but that would totally offend BB. She has said she would rebell and has done some rebelling just because someone pushed her. It's theold "the more you push/ask, the less she will co-operate.
Quote: I'm guessing that the control you keep attempting to exert is also impacting the relationship in a negative way from her viewpoint.
No control works fine but the more that happens, the more BB's shopping becomes out of controll.
Quote: I also think that you need to examine how your past may be impacting your present in a negative way
Often I try to give myself a Dr.Phill therapy question in this area. What is reasonable, what is a minimum amount, when does something become excessive, when is more just more or at what point is more overload.
Quote: because I really think you need to get out of the position of being the arbiter of spending.
That is what the womens issues C said. The more I let BB do what she wants, what I consider wasting money and spending because the money is there but the item is not a need, but a style want, where style changes for the sake of style change to create demand, the less invested I am in the R. as HP pointed out, you're dealing with core value issues. this right on the money.
If you ever saw the 1987 movie Tin Men and grew to dislike the theme of the manipulation the siding industry portrayed in the movie, that is something like the way I see some highly advertised (60% to 80% of the cost of the product is advertising expences) things BB buys. Add that to the fact that we already have something similar and in good condition, that is how I feel sometimes.
Sometimes I think if we lived on the north slope of Alaska and there were ice all around, BB would buy an ice maker for the cressent shaped cubes if refrigerators were advertised that way. It's just how I feel at the moment. Scale this comment down and it might be reality.
Quote: Being frugal is an admirable thing, but it can be taken to extremes. Do you think you are extreme in this regard?
On a spending scale I might rank at 25% and BB around 65%/75% (based on similar incomes). I can get things to work, BB is having trouble flushing our new toilets, working the TV remote, some of her kitchen appliances, etc. The "check engine" light came on in her car, which I took care of-it was a very minor fault that got stored in the car's computer memory, and that is what upped her interest in a new car.
Thanks for posting Mrs. Nop. Customers in a bind. Fix then up or lose them so I have to go.
Cobra said Let her call the EMS and resolve it on her own in the hospital. Lou said Cobra, I would not let things go that far. I would do more than this for someone I never met, if the need ever arose.
Yeah, that example was a little extreme, and things should not get to a level where health is affected. Sorry for that one.
Cobra said I don’t think you should call her at all on the trip Lou said I think that would cause more problems than it would solve. Would it be fair if the shoe were on the other foot? Where is the "minimum level of civility line" drawn? I think this is what Lil or someone posted as having standards you set for yourself as a minimum for your own self respect or ways to avoid making things worse.
Generally I agree with you and others on this principal. But we are dealing with a different deck of cards than many others. My wife has no hesitation in breaching the minimum level of civility line. In my opinion she should have a minimum amount of respect toward me. The fact that she doesn’t means she controls the disputes. If I never cross the line, then she will always “win.” If it never bothers her that she does this, then what does that say about the level of civility? How do you deal with this, other than leave?
HP said On one hand, it IS her money too.. Lou replied If I went along with BB's ideas from way back when and spent the money in our retirement fund we would not have 70% of it.
I agree that community property money is 50/50 owned by both partners, but where I have a problem (and I think some other men do to) is when that pot of money gets totally spent by the W. It becomes unfair when I put all the money in the pot and she takes it all out. If she would only take her 50%, I’d feel better about it.
The "womens issues C said …..
Is there a man’s issue counselor around?
No control works fine but the more that happens, the more BB's shopping becomes out of controll.
I recall sometimes when I complained about all the discretionary spending my wife did, she would turn it around and complain that much of the credit card debt was due to my spending, such as repair the drivetrain, or A/C on her car (not that this was discretionary, with her screaming about driving a hot car in the Texas summer). But anything she could use to justify her spending was good enough for her.
You said earlier Two types of kids, negative attention is better than neglect or if I don't get my way, you pay. Is youe W a "you pay" type? Yes, I think my W is a “you pay” type. Do you think BB spends not just due to addiction, but also to pile up things to counteract your pile of stuff in a “you pay” type of retaliation?
You also wondered once if BB was ADD. Does she (and maybe you) have a little obsessive/compulsive (label, I know…) in you too? If she doesn’t have enough to keep her busy, then fixating on the TV with ADD and OCD could be trouble. Her inability to operate the minor technical things is indicative to me of ADD. My wife has this problem too and it mainly comes from a lack of patience and focus to learn how to operate the darn thing. But then she starts putting herself done because she can’t get something to work at a critical moment. She take Focalin now and it seems to help her a lot, not just in focusing better, but on the secondary self esteem effects too. Maybe something like this, combined with her background issues, is more the root of her problem, and it manifests as a shopping addiction?
Could she take up some type of hobby or activity out of the home, to distract her away from the TV, get more exercise and purpose in her life, and help her feel a little younger? Do you think she is a little depressed too?
