When she gets up to go walk the dogs, get up and go with her. Do not mention it ahead of time. Don't try to get her to work "us time" into the schedule. Don't discuss anything like this -- just act. Don't give her the opportunity to say your idea is a bad idea. Discussions only open the door for her to shove all her reasons in the way. Her reasons aren't reasons, just excuses, so no point in encouraging them.
You wrote
Quote: So, I guess you are saying that wanting to do the right things, being nice, avoiding conflict, rescuing BB when she feels like life short changed her is not helping our situation very much.
Wanting to do the right thing and being nice are fine. Avoiding conflict when conflict is necessary is not a good thing. Rescuing BB is not a good thing-- because for one thing you don't really rescue her, do you? When you try to rescue her, she just pulls you down into the pit with her.
This probably sounds mean, but why in the hell can't BB get rid of the cardboard if it bothers her so much? It just seems to me that you are the slave and she is the master. Does she do anything other than laundry and cook?
I know you and I are dealing with very similar situations, but with two exceptions. I have children and you don’t (or at least they are grown, I’m not sure) and you don’t have the anger element at play. I think our wives have similar distancing strategies, but frankly, I think my wife has no fear of being alone, whereas yours does. I believe part of what holds our behavior in check is understanding the consequences of doing the wrong thing. I don’t think this bothers my wife because she has already been there. It is not scary to her. She even sees it as an improvement for her since she would be away from me. She does understand that it would be worse for the kids and this is what keeps her in the marriage. It is the only leverage I have.
Your wife seems very concerned about her future and that future depends on you, even though she does very little to make her dependence on you secure. I think she realizes how vulnerable she could be, but does not want to acknowledge it, nor do anything about it. But then I don’t she that she has to since in a way, she is very secure. As long as she knows you are pursuing her, she knows you care and she gets security. Sort of like a kid acting out to get punished. They take the punishment as a sign the parent cares for them. My step-mom’s son was like that. Now that he is grown, it seems to everyone that he is a socio-path (label).
My thought has always been that you need to break the pursuer/avoider cycle. This will make her start coming to you. Then you can set the terms. Each time you have backed off, she has softened up. It is temporary because once she knows this is only another form of punishment from you and not true abandonment, she gets comfortable again and reverts to her old ways. I think you need to send the message that you are capable of leaving her permanently and her positive changes need to be permanent as well.
As evidence, it seems her “panic attack” the other day shows her fears. You reassured her and she settled down. Why do you need to reassure her? Let her feel the anguish until SHE is willing to do something about it. I think it is really you who is afraid of letting her experience her consequences. As others have mentioned, but in other words, you are enabling her to continue in her behavior. When things get desperate for her, you step in. Let things get desperate, let her suffer her panic attacks. Let her call the EMS and resolve it on her own in the hospital. If you are growing tired of your marriage, it could come to this anyway, right?
I wonder what would happen if you stretched your two week trip out by another week or so, but didn’t tell her. In fact, I don’t think you should call her at all on the trip. Just come home when you are good and ready. Let her know that she needs you and let her suffer the panic that comes with it. That will set up so many contradictions between her feelings and her behavior I would think she’d have to confront them. To set it in stone, I wouldn’t even talk to her about her concerns for a while. Let her deal with them through her friends. Let her see how much help they are.
For all this to work you need to be willing to accept the consequences yourself. If she leaves, will you be OK with that? If so, go for it. If not, then think twice.
The only other thing I can think of is to address her requests to clean up around the house. If you need to find an offsite place that you can tore you things like the old cars, cardboard, etc. This will take away her ammunition. Keeping them around just gives her a reason to complain. If you resolves all her requests and she still stays distant, then she will have to face her own problems.
Quote: why in the hell can't BB get rid of the cardboard if it bothers her so much?
I put it there, it is in my extra van, I am the recycler in the family, kind of to save resources. BB does not care about conserving. I stop at the recyclers when I have 1/2 to a full load, the local trash company charges extra for anything that does not fit in the trash bin "with the lid fully closed." Even some of the donation stores want a fee if you drop off a mattress (trash) with a bedroom set (they sell these) The county land fill uppes their rates every year to the haulers.
Quote: Does she do anything other than laundry and cook?
Cleans the floors almost every day. The dogs and cats leave lots of foot prints and fur. Exercises in spurts, Lots of TV in place of shopping.
Jill, not "master / slave" so much as "easy / doing more difficult things".
Quote: The cardboard exchange sounded just right to me.
Thanks for the opinion. When the event happened, I thought something needed to be said to correct the facts but not to the point of proving anything.
Quote: When she gets up to go walk the dogs, get up and go with her
BB does not walk the dogs. We have an big lot (150 X 300) so the dogs run a lot.
Quote: Don't discuss anything like this -- just act.
I was intending to do that after one more try. Maybe I will just load the dogs up and go to the park by the river (grassy paths). BB does not like walking around our house. Large gravel on the roads here.
Quote: Avoiding conflict when conflict is necessary is not a good thing.
I was looking at the reviews of "Tell Me No Lies: How to Face the Truth and Build a Loving Marriage", Author : Ellyn Bader~Peter T., Ph.D. Pearson~Judith Schwartz, ISBN : 0312262388.
BB is a dreamer sometimes. Recently she has been talking about a Hummer-3 so we looked at one. Then a 4 door, 4 wheel drive pick-up, then a Durango, and then another SUV she was talking about. Rather different for me to even set foot on a car lot but I decided that I don't have to run for the govenor's position just to look in the state capitol. I did tell BB she can look but I don't intend to have one parked in our driveway.
On a brighter note, BB was telling a friend that was worried about increased heating costs, to do what Lou did a couple of years ago, Install a new hi-efficient furnace. The friend said a new furnace cost $2,800. BB said , but Lou installed ours and it was only $900. BB paid a compliment to me about getting a jump on higher home heating costs.
It seems she does appreciate what you do. She just does not show you the appreciation. Now bet that other person is wishing they had a handy husband like you are!
So, I guess you are saying that wanting to do the right things, being nice, avoiding conflict, rescuing BB when she feels like life short changed her is not helping our situation very much. I agree.
yes but these are ingrained habits, so they are hard to change. easy to understand sometimes, but when the script is deployed we go on automatic reaction.
OG, I would like to suggest that you just take the dogs for a walk yourself. Say I am taking the dogs out, are you coming. Or I am taking the dogs for a walk at 3:30, come with me. (tonality is important. statement not demand, not pleading. be indifferent to the outcome.) then drop it and do it. If you have three say I would like you to handle 1 of them.
make sense? its not a demand, but it isnt supplicating either.
Another way to do this is to go to the Mall if you have one nearby, there is always something to talk about and you can walk around where its warm since winter is coming. Some malls even schedule this type of thing.
Quote: Another way to do this is to go to the Mall if you have one nearby,
There is a one-room-school-house about 3 miles from here. Will that do? Just being a smart a$$ BF. Someone from the east asked me if we had a McDonalds store here. I said no, but the stage comes through twice a week now.
No, the mall is many miles away, but I get your point; walking and together and hopefully talking about something where we make a connection.
New test; old test? BB again said she wants to "look at" a car she saw advertised in the paper. I said I will "look at" but not with the intention of ever buying anything.
Well, I looked and she wanted. No surprise, right? BB sees it as saving $8,000 (rental or off lease car) and I see it as spending $21,000 for someone that drives 3,000 or less miles a year. BB's current small suv has 39,000 miles on it. It had 35,000 on it when she got it almost 1.5 year ago.
We got home and I said to BB, "you seem distant." There was no response so I said I was going to paint the stairs to the deck.
Not the evening I had planned but I am not getting involved in anymore retail therapy. Some of BB's relatives live for retail therapy, so I am in the minority sometimes/manytimes.
Quote: Sort of like a kid acting out to get punished
We had many of those kids in the group home where I worked. Two types of kids, negative attention is better than neglect or if I don't get my way, you pay. Is youe W a "you pay" type?
Quote: My thought has always been that you need to break the pursuer/avoider cycle.
That is/was part of my plan. I just did not want to ignore some positive changes and let them go un-rewarded. That can also be seen as rescuing.
Quote: When things get desperate for her, you step in.
I never considered myself a flashy dresser, a big spender, the life of the party, Mr Lover Boy, but often Lou the protector, yes. I used to think helping someone had its rewards and they would appreciate you for your good deeds, but I have been wrong before.
Dr Laura said guys that rescue damsels in distress get a distressed damsel, not a woman that shows appreciation for being rescued. I am believing her more on this observation.
Quote: Let her call the EMS and resolve it on her own in the hospital.
Cobra, I would not let things go that far. I would do more than this for someone I never met, if the need ever arose.
Quote: I don’t think you should call her at all on the trip
I think that would cause more problems than it would solve. Would it be fair if the shoe were on the other foot? Where is the "minimum level of civility line" drawn? I think this is what Lil or someone posted as having standards you set for yourself as a minimum for your own self respect or ways to avoid making things worse.
Quote: Let her deal with them through her friends. Let her see how much help they are.
If I did that, they are spenders too, so what about I have BB ask your W what BB should do. Don't get me wrong, BB's friends are mostly reasonable but liberals, do what makes you happy, you are your own person type, and in credit counseling. There is one couple I do highly respect. Some have almost no boundaries and almost anything goes.
Quote: If you need to find an offsite place that you can store you things like the old cars, cardboard, etc. This will take away her ammunition
I plead guilty on too much stuff. The cardboard goes monthly but the cars are leaving too slowl for BB, as are the printer parts and supplies.
The strange thing to me is, the more I work on eliminating things, the more BB rubs in how she sees things got out of hand. I get less flack if I don't do much around the house.
Re your situation cobra. I think Lil has the right attitude when she described her interactions with her bf, he could stay but the boose had to go. I wish your situation were that simple but with kids involved it becomes a 3 way, instead of a 2 way deal. It is not just about you or her.
For story clarity, this happened on 10/23 BB is a dreamer sometimes. Recently she has been talking about a Hummer-3 so we looked at one. Then a 4 door, 4-wheel drive pick-up, then a Durango, and then another SUV she was talking about. Rather different for me to even set foot on a car lot but I decided that I don't have to run for the governor’s position just to look in the state capitol. I did tell BB she can look but I don't intend to have one parked in our driveway.
This happened on 10/30 New test; old test? BB again said she wants to "look at" a car she saw advertised in the paper. I said I will "look at" but not with the intention of ever buying anything.
I think I better not go "looking" anymore. I was thinking if I "never looked" BB would buy on impulse and say that is what I get for not "looking" with her. I know I am curious about things. I suppose she is too but gets caught up with wanting something new much more than the average person. I did not want to block her curiosity, just her spending habit.
Like I said before, I don't have to run for governor to look at the capitol building. Some people do.
Just being a smart a$$ BF. Someone from the east asked me if we had a McDonalds store here. I said no, but the stage comes through twice a week now. 
Cobra, I would not let things go that far. I would do more than this for someone I never met, if the need ever arose.