Quote: if this doesn't make any difference to her, then you need to either accept that your M will always be sexless or move on if you can.
When things like this happen, I usually get tid-bits of something sexual along with rational (to her) semi-medical reasons menopausal women were not built for sex or physical closeness (hot flashes). I say I understand some how she feels but dont buy in to the theory that sex once every 6 weeks or twice a month is reality. Now there is the don't get close to me or you will triger my hot flashes thing.
About moving on, that takes more of my time than it used to.
Re Hairdog
Quote: You let her know that you won't be manipulated anymore.
FWIW, I don't know how much good it will do, but time will tell. She has her pets and old re-runs on TV to fall back on.
Re Lil
Quote: In your avoidance of her, please continue to be cordial-- make sure you're not being pouty or anything.
The cordial part is not much problem but the pouty part is more difficult.
Quote: If you can let her know that you are not doing this to be mean, but as a personal survival method.
I said something like this when I told BB I had to back off trying to change the R and she had to do more of the R work. She has her dogs and other pets to fall back on, similar situation as what your BF does with your cats, but not with you. I have my work that helps keep me occupied and lots to do around the house. (note to self what about GAL activities?)
I did attend a self-help group but it did not help. The theme was a version of AA's big book. Other books or methods were discouraged. Nice bunch of people but too focused on "The Book" for me.
No one really said anything specific what they were having trouble with, just that they did or did not do X and what the read from the "book" that helped them. I asked about something pertaining to something I read in another book and was told, because the idea was not in "the book" it was not appropriate material for the meeting.
Quote: Heck, she may dig you a new tunnel with cheese when she really gets that the Old Game is over.
Well I was offered a newer car ($10K from our money ) but turned it down. GEL's H offered to buy her things she did not want. I guess it is common for some people to think money will fix a problem.
Lil, I will look for the tunnel with some cheese in the mean time.
Can we say junk yard? Or do I have to be PC and say "Auto Recycler" I finally found 2 1985 Dodge Caravans with a 5-speed transmission (25-27 miles per gallon). One is in good condition (no rust) to rebuild (high milage but not ratty), the other was in a minor crash. The second van is for spare parts as some of the parts are not available new. $600 for both. I know these vehicles well because I worked in the dealership when they were new.
One of my newer cars might need automatic transmission work ($1,200, I could fix it myself if I bought the special tools) so having something that requires little repair (5-speeds)and increases fuel milage is right up my alley. BB does not understand me liking older cars and thinks anything X years old is junk.
I had my/our company over for dinner, which I cooked last evening, and all had a good time. (DBing application)= I can function (cooking) with or without BB. Meals don't have to be complicated.
(((Side bar-I even joked I was serving Spaghetti-O's and champaign in paper cups. I asked if they wanted their Spaghetti-O's cold, heated in the micro-wave-oven, or on the stove top. Anyone who asked to have theirs heated I made a joke about being high maintenance.))) I can have a good time with or without BB. People are interested in what I do and I am interested in what they do.
Later BB rubbed my back without me asking and put her arm around me .
About 3AM she started having a panic attack. I asked he what it was about and she said what if yiou get in an accident on your vacation. What am I going to do with the house and all of your things?
i said it would be easy. Call a friend that has a similar business and let him take what he wants, then give or throw the rest away, sell the house and buy your condo. End of conversation.
This is what happpens. BB does not like something I am doing, creates situations where things go wrong that cause her potential problems, feels she can't cope, wants pre-accident/death/?????? potential problems solved before I leave/do something.
I said what I intended to do before I left for vacation before she brought up this latest round of questions and left it at that.
Quote: About 3AM she started having a panic attack. I asked he what it was about and she said what if yiou get in an accident on your vacation. What am I going to do with the house and all of your things?
I said it would be easy. Call a friend that has a similar business and let him take what he wants, then give or throw the rest away, sell the house and buy your condo. End of conversation.
The next time the opportunity arises, I would suggest you say exactly what you said, and then add this without any further discussion: "I predict that the house and stuff won't be the hardest thing. The hardest thing will be for you to get along without me here loving you more than anyone else in the world."
Very important: then give her a quick pat or kiss or whatever works to show the remark was not meant unkindly or as a bid for anything, and then walk away with no further comment. Let that statement just lie there for her to ponder. Don't dilute the effect of the comment with any further discussion.
Quote: The hardest thing will be for you to get along without me here loving you more than anyone else in the world."
Good Lil and powerfull too. I almost said something like she could have her condo and her pets that she dotesd oves so much and not have to put up with my precieved "controling" behavior. What would be better? A condo with no maintenance and all the cats and dogs she wants 24/7, but I know that was too sarcastic.
Quote: then give her a quick pat or kiss or whatever works to show the remark was not meant unkindly or as a bid for anything
When BB did rub my back, I wanted to let her know it felt good. I did not say anything, just put my bare foot on hers and strocked her foot with mine a couple of times.
In the past I would have did her back and say how much I liked mine being done. I am seeing that I did not hold out for enough for me to feel like things were more fair and were more like a two way street.
We slept in the same bed last night because I gave my bed to company. I was thinking of going back to my room tonight, not to be mean spirited, but to continue on my semi independent mental state, "I am OK with just me."
I read much of her behavior, including this panic attack, as covert manipulation. The panic attack may not be conscious, but it is still meant to control you. The very fact that she puts her arm around you says something. She makes a choice to stay distant, which is comfortable to her as long as you are following her (like a puppy dog). When you refuse to follow, she gets panicky because her puppy dog has left and she is now alone.
Keep calling her bluff. She is terrified of being without you and conceals this through her actions. Your chasing her makes her feel like the stronger person, but as you are seeing, she isn’t. Stop the chase and she can’t keep up her charade of strength by rejecting you. The dance is stopped and the balance of power changed. Now Blackfoot’s tactics can be useful.
Lou I think you handled both situations exactly right. I like my comment about you being gone better than yours because mine is just a simple point with no added justification or reasoning, kwim? It's just a statement that lies there for her to look at and ponder. I think your comment has too much "content" and also has a "attitude" to it that would give her something to react to. The attitude will distract her-- she seems easily distracted from a simple point.
This is also the reason why you rubbing her foot with your foot was good. It conveyed the message that you liked it without any "content" for her to react to or make something out of.
I would see these new reactions of yours not so much as "calling her bluff," as simply getting onto a different road. In the past, you've argued with her, reasoned with her, stated your case, etc., to little avail. It's almost like you've taken your communication to a different level-- some might say it's more advanced, some might say it's more primitive... You're letting your actions speak and using few words. Instead of telling her, you're showing her. I would think there would be an element of relief on your part not to feel you have to explain yourself or defend yourself on stuff anymore (at least for now).
As for whether you sleep with her tonight or sleep alone... just be true to how you feel, keep your integrity. Don't sleep alone to spite her or punish her, or join her to prove anything or placate her. Do what YOU want, and don't defend or explain to her. Let her react in whatever way she does and keep all words to a minimum.
As someone who is subject to panic attacks, I can say that they are not something you DO to someone. They seem to come out of nowhere, although if you search, you can sometimes find the trigger. The trigger might be emotional or an event. Or it might be physical. If blood sugar drops too low (as it can in the middle of the night, particularly if you're overweight and thus, pre-diabetic), the body perceives a physical threat and dumps adrenalin into the system. Having adrenalin in the system can be interpreted by the brain as excitement OR fear.
If my partner indicated that he thought my panic attack was an attempt to manipulate him, that would really hurt. I hate having panic attacks. The best reaction is comfort and soothing-- not logic and reasons "why you shouldn't be afraid." Usually I KNOW I shouldn't be afraid, but I can't make the terror go away (except with a xanax).
Even though Lou reasoned with BB during the panic attack, in her case, I thought it was okay, but I added the comment about missing him to sort of slip that thought in under her radar while she was in a vulnerable state.
It seems you are setting good firm boundries for BB. I would not think you will see immediate results but I think in the long run if you stick to it and she sees hey he really is done with this behavoir of mine. She may come around some.
The sleeping in a different room thing I don't know that can be tricky. I know alot of folks that sleep together into old age. But I don't know what goes on in that bed. But I know a few that sleep seperate and I know what is not going on in there relationship. Sex none at all. Being in a different room for a long period of time seems to decrease the chances of sex. I base that on a very limited knowledge though. We are talking 4 or 5 couples I know that sleep seperate.
Why the hold up in your vacation. Can't wait for you to come back and post about all the excitting things and places! You are going to make me jealous
Lil your suggested statement was awesome. I am not a woman and dont know exactly why it works so well, I just do what works... but when you tell them something in this vein, youll miss me, you think I am so cool, etc, they just stop and stare at you like you are a phsycic.
about anxiety attacks, my x reported that she had many during our first seperation. work stopping, cant breathe or function. Today she texted and 2 minutes later called. I was working, she left voicemail. She had one halfway thru, first voice cracking, then crying then ...you can hear it. But the call was to inform me of irrelevant financial matters long ago taken care of and an apology for the D papers that will probably arrive in the Mail on my Bday. She is sorry, its not revenge, it just happened that way. Already know, been said before.
Lets see x you are doing something that is causing you tremendous pain, guilt, depression and severe anxiety. We have only talked 10? times in the past 6 months, and I have ignored everything for the past 2. Why are you doing it? Oh yes I am a bad husband and bad for you. I tend to forget things I dont believe sometimes....especially since I know alternative well. But that has nothing to do with it. Uh huh.
However that IS her perception of me, and I respect that she is doing what is best for her. Be happy, Be Well, you will get over it sooner with no contact. Since this is what you want, I am still trying to do what is best for you.
OG needed to purge, anxiety attack reference no responses necessary to this. Please. I dont want this to become a hijack.
Cobra I agree with you about the anxiety attack. again its not malicious or intentional but it is a test. you pass with strength and confidance and redirecting/moving on to a positive perception.
OG I think you are really on to some good things. Two thumbs up.
Quote: I almost said something like she could have her condo and her pets that she dotesd oves so much and not have to put up with my precieved "controling" behavior
I did not say this to BB, just thought about. Just brought this up to make sure no one thought I actually went through with it.
Re Lil
Quote: I would see these new reactions of yours not so much as "calling her bluff," as simply getting onto a different road.
Lil, I am not calling her bluff or what ever it is . I agree with cobra that she is not intentioally trying to make things hard on me or her. It is just something she believes is right according to her way of thinking.
Quote: I would think there would be an element of relief on your part not to feel you have to explain yourself or defend yourself on stuff anymore (at least for now).
I wished it were that way. I just feel more detached and care a little less each week about the outcome. Sad in a way, but maybe that is what it will take for one of us to make the next move.
Quote: I added the comment about missing him to sort of slip that thought in under her radar while she was in a vulnerable state
Anything wrong with asayint "you might miss me more than the problems with the house and inventory should something cause me not to come back?" (Open discussion type of thing)
Re Chrissy
Quote: Being in a different room for a long period of time seems to decrease the chances of sex.
BTDT. You are right. When I am not sleeping with her, the dogs become more important, and I become less important.
RE Blackfoot
Quote: Oh yes I am a bad husband and bad for you. I tend to forget things I dont believe sometimes....especially since I know alternative well. But that has nothing to do with it. Uh huh.........However that IS her perception of me,
Are you saying SO's re write history? Naw, you don't say. Mine does all of the time.
Quote: I agree with you about the anxiety attack. again its not malicious or intentional but it is a test. you pass with strength and confidance and redirecting/moving on to a positive perception
Test? That is a big 10-4 good buddy. A year ago I never saw it that way, now I do.
Quote: Anything wrong with asayint "you might miss me more than the problems with the house and inventory should something cause me not to come back?" (Open discussion type of thing)
Lou, you are like an alcoholic who is asking me if he can just have one teeny weeny little beer every night. What's with the "open discussion"?
Let me ask you: are you generally successful when you try to discuss something with her? Does she see your POV and agree that you are making sense? Do you find that when you have one of these "discussions," at the end of it you are on the same wavelength and feel closer? I would say the answers are "No," "No," and "He11 no!"
Just try this new strategy of minimal discussion for a while and see if you get anywhere with it. Make a statement and do NOT invite discussion. Let HER have the discussion all by herself inside her own head. It seems to me from what you have reported of your past convos that when you speak a sentence that has more than one thought in it, she gets a bit distracted and confused and goes off on a tangent. And then when you try to bring her back on topic, she resists you directing her. The harder you try to make your point, the more she is now reacting to what she perceives as your attitude. It's almost as if she can only receive on one channel at a time.... or can only "download" one thing at a time, and very slowly at that.
Remember the exchange of posts we had a while back where I suggested that when she wanders off topic, you just keep bringing her back? I believe you had some modest success with that. When she tried to take the conversation off in another distracting direction, you acknowledged her and then repeated the main idea you were trying to get across in simple terms. I'm just asking you to stick with that, but now to minimize the repeating. Just make the statement once or twice and don't get into a "discussion."
Picture a teen who needs to clean up her room. You say, "Mary Lou, clean your room." She says she has homework, has to go to a friend's house, her fav show is coming on tv, she can't find the vacuum, she read that inhaling the fumes from cleaning products can damage your brain, her other friends have maids why don't we have one, if you loved me you wouldn't make me do menial tasks, my room's toooo dirty to clean I don't know where to start, and on and on. You just keep saying "Mary Lou, clean your room" until you wear her down.
BB is like Mary Lou... she'll just keep throwing out these little mini-grenades that explode in your path, distracting you from the point you are trying to make.
Why does she do it? Personally she sounds a bit learning disabled, somewhat emotionally stunted-- sorry for the labels. I realize I don't know her at all, only from what you have reported. But I haven't seen any evidence from your posts that having an "open discussion" with her is possible at this time. I agree with Chrissy that she may very well make some progress and if you keep to the policy of simple, clear communication, you may see some real breakthroughs down the road. Just give this a good try for a reasonable period of time-- what have you got to lose? You can always go back to the old way of having endless conversations where she wanders all over the landscape and never does get your point. <sigh>
You're such a good man, Lou. I think that if you did wind up on your own, you would have to beat women off with a stick.
Blackfoot, thanks for your positive feedback. I value your opinion.
Edited to add: Lou, the reference to "calling her bluff" was not directed at you. Cobra had suggested that you call her bluff and I was responding to him.
Also re panic attacks... I sort of agree that it is a test, in the same way that other things might be tests. For example, if (God forbid) your dog got run over by a car. How you reacted to that might be a test. Are you really affected, teary, compassionate-- or blase, indifferent. Another test might be how do you react if my car breaks down and I have to call you to come and get me? Are you perfectly okay, gracious, helpful... or do you come grudgingly and read me the riot act about not keeping up the maintenance. You guys might have tests, too. How does she react when you tell her at the last minute you're going fishing for the weekend? Or what if you've been planning to go to her boss's daughter's wedding and the day before you come down with a really bad cold? Is she gracious, understanding, and realizes you didn't do it deliberately? Or does she punish you indirectly while claiming she's "not mad'? Let's face it, married life is full of "tests."
Well I was offered a newer car ($10K from our money ) but turned it down. 
I know these vehicles well because I worked in the dealership when they were new.
. 
You are going to make me jealous 
. I agree with cobra that she is not intentioally trying to make things hard on me or her. It is just something she believes is right according to her way of thinking.