Lockout King

[chromosphere]

"You both wanted to express those feelings but knew that it was going to lead somewhere even more dangerous so you both consciously and subconsciously reacted to each other in ways that prevented it."
Interesting perspective and probably correct. I guess I'll never know.

"I think we are both assuming we will wait a little longer to make sure everything is going fairly well."
So you feel as if he is holding back some too, not wanting to fully commit to the relationship?

"For some reason I like the fact that the clock is still ticking so to speak, towards the OPTION of divorce. Crazy isn't it?"
I can understand your frame of mind. You feel like a door has been opened in your life, a door that has the promise of greener pastures on the other side. Closing that door and tending to the weeds on your side of the door is tough.

"In NY, you need to be legally separated 1 year before you can get divorced"
That's interesting, I had this image in my mind of people just being able to divorce on a whim, the so-called "no fault" divorces. I guess those are only in places like Hollywood.

"I guess I'm not as invested/committed to the M as I thought"
I think you are doing a fine job. Invest/commit at your own pace. I think you and I both tend to dive in head-first without seeing how deep the water is. We both need more patience (although I think you are doing a much better job than me). The reasons for our patience are different (you need to see if getting back with H is going to work, I need to lay off the W to make it work).

"Although he's being no different."
He may be just like you, afraid to take the plunge back into commitment because he is unsure of where you stand. I'd better stop before I give you bad advice.

"It's hard enough dealing with all the emotions right now. The paperwork is just not a priority. So far things have worked out ok so we'll see what happens. Guess I better address it sooner or later. Choosing later for now."
Probably a good move. Let it come when it is time. If you don't do anything about it, does it just expire after one year?

"Another Mexican Standoff"
Just had to comment on this as it relates to my situation. I have been really struggling with things these past two days. I hope I can put down in words the jumbled up thoughts that are in my head in an intelligible way. Here goes:

I have had several people telling me here that I need to back off, be happy, etc. etc. But inside I am just dying. Not knowing where she stands on the important issues that are going through my head drives me batty. I am going to take the advice from others and leave her be, but I've got to find a way to not go crazy in the meantime.

Also, as far as the affection goes, I am really worried there. I have this sinking suspicious that if I do back off of the affection, IT WON'T BOTHER HER ONE BIT!!! In fact, that is probably what she wants, to not have to deal with me on a physical level. I know what Blackfoot says is that I should act like she really does want me. But what if I truly don't believe that in my heart. I have tried being all non-chalant about it, but it seems like no matter how I act, she doesn't want anything to do with me physically. ANYTHING!!! I'm not talking about sex, I'm not talking about heavy affection, just the simple act of touching me anywhere at anytime. She doesn't do it at all. OK, three times in the past two months.

I'm just so confused by it all. I'm supposed to pursue her, I'm not supposed to pursue her. I'm supposed to validate her thoughts and opinions, but the only things she usually says to me are stories about the kids or telling me to do something. When I bring up conversations, they usually go nowhere. I'm supposed to be Mr. Cool and be funny, but she doesn't respond to my humor, and if I tease her it just makes her mad.

Venting over. Waiting for the MC session, the C session with the self-esteem guy, and the psychiatrists appointment. Hopefully I don't blow before then.

Oh, and Blackfoot, if you are reading this. I did my 20 minutes of thinking alone. What you read above was mostly what I thought about.

[chromosphere]

"How are things going today? Any better?"
Not really. She is on Dr. Phil's website looking for discipline advice for the twins. Basically, as I said earlier, I was supposed to try to take my mind off things this weekend. A friend was supposed to come by on Friday and we were going to hang out a bit. He came by, got what he needed and left (although with good reason). My brothers were supposed to visit this weekend, they canceled (with good reason). Another friend was supposed to stop by last night, she canceled (with good reason). The twins have been crying their heads off all weekend, I think they are regressing. When they are not crying they are being real brats. It is not like them at all. Basically, as long as I am playing with them, they are fine. But when I have to stop to do something, they go ballistic. Needless to say, all of the cancellations and the twins acting up has made this weekend pretty sorry. Oh, and don't forget, not getting much sleep because I am helping the W with the newborn, who has his days and nights mixed up still.

Maybe this next week will be better. Hope I haven't bummed you out too much.

[chromosphere]

"As I did the work of exploring my sexuality"
How did you do that? Any chance my W will be open to doing the same, at least before I turn LD waiting for her.

[LustForLife]

Way too crazy right now to respond to your posts but I just had to laugh/cry at your description of your kids. And 3, 2 and younger! Oh My! Here's what is happening as a type in the LFL household: S(5) and D(4) are running around in circles (we have a wrap around on the first floor so they can just go in one direction in an endless loop). Anyways, they are yelling and screaming at each other, wearing their Halloween costumes (Darth Vader and Butterfly) and the dog (beagle) is running behind them barking at the top of her lungs. All of this fun for 4 days with no help! Hurray. Might have to bust out the bottle of wine when the kids go to bed. Talk about holding on by a thread.
More later.

[LustForLife]

Ok, stealing a few minutes while they sit quietly watching Monsters Inc. I'm determined to get them into bed early tonight is it's the last thing I do

I am really beginning to feel detached from her, and I don't want that. I know the MC session is not going to be the holy grail, but it can't come too soon. I think if I have to wait much longer to at least start airing some of this stuff out, I'll either go crazy or just completely shut off.
Like I've said before, try not to look too far into the future. I know that is hard but it has helped me some. Try and vent here, to friends, but not her. It will only make things worse at this point. She has made it clear through words and actions that she is not ready to really address these issues (with some good reasons, the baby, etc). Do you have friends (other than us, lol) that you can spend some time with and get a shoulder to cry on? Too bad you had the cancellations this weekend. Can you talk to anyone there about any of this? I talk to my best girlfriends but I still don't open up as much as I can on this board. They are not going through it so it is harder for them to understand and give feedback. Still, getting a needed pat on the back or hug helps. You are defintely in need of some TLC and TOUCH.
You are too good at succinctly describing exactly how I feel Not too good, I just can relate to you and I have those same feelings most of the time. That's why I was so drawn to your posts when you first started writing. I kept saying to myself, "Wow this guy thinks just like me." SCARY
I feel comfortable talking to you about these things. I hope so because I want to listen. I sense you feel the same way so it's nice
One difference between us (OH NO!!!) is that I want to deal with this issues head-on and start fixing them, but the conventional wisdom is that I need to just back off. Differences? What? LOL Of course we have differences, especially considering I am female and you are male. That's a big enough difference alone But I see what you are saying, men tend to be very direct when there is a problem and want to "fix" it, find a solution, etc. Women are usually not as practical. Your W is demonstrating that. I'm sure she is very aware of the problems but realizes there are other things she needs to deal with right now and as painful as it is, the SL is not one of them. She is probably feeling overwhelmed, tired, and let's face it, angry at you. Can't really blame her for not reacting the same way you are. I do this with H all the time. Thus I'm on here venting to you instead of letting it fly with him. It won't be productive. He won't be able to "fix" it like we've just said and I don't need to add more stress to the situation than there already is. MAybe your W is thinking something similar. She doesn't have any solutions so she will just redirect her energy to the kids. Just a woman's point of view there
I probably wouldn't mind being wherever you are, but you'd hate it out here. Remember, no coffee shops How is that possible (no coffee shops)? Don't rural folk like to drink there coffee in the morn? I can't comprehend any of this!!
Ok, there's the response to your first post. At this rate, I'll catch up by dawn Sadly, I have nothing else to do so...

[Cobra]

Globule,

What does this mean:

“…. She said, "well you do it all the time so ..."

I thought she was the one who clammed up and didn’t talk and you were the one trying to communicate? This statement is in such contrast to everything you have said here that it jumped out at me. Is your wife saying that you don’t open up to her or want to talk over the issues that are important to her?

It sounds like something my wife says. For her, it doesn’t matter how I approach her or how nice I tried to be to her. If she is ticked about something, she is all consumed with her hurt and anger. She does not care about anything else and will see any attempts to be nice as denying her feelings. So my trying to be nice can actually make thing worse. If we can have a good long discussion and work through everything, then she will be receptive. This is why I say my wife just wants mommy to pick her up and hold her. She needs to have her hurt soothed. When she is mad it is all about her. And what she is mad about is not as much the issue as how mad she is.

The other thing your wife’s statement says to me is that the door is open. She didn’t say she doesn’t ever want to talk to you again, but that she can’t get past something you have done or have said. She is engrossed in her hurt only. Address her hurt in a way that she feels acknowledged and feels your empathy and she might let you take a step forward.

I think you need to work under the supposition that all women want to forgive. But they have certain hurdles we must pass to be worthy of that forgiveness. The trick is finding out what that hurdle is (and if there are more than one). And there may be many steps in forgiveness to be taken, before you get to where you want. But she is not saying she won’t let you take them. I think you guys need to sit down and have a long heart to heart talk. You should think about addressing her hurts head on.

[chromosphere]

"All of this fun for 4 days with no help! Hurray."
The twins actually took a decent nap. Usually when they wake up, the older one will just cry her eyes out for about an hour for no apparent reason. Today for some reason, she didn't, so it was good. Daddy had just bought a new soft sweatshirt, and she seemed to enjoy snuggling up in it (probably feels like a king-sized bed to her ) and forgot to cry. It was nice. Anyway, daddy and baby got so comfortable that we both took a nap. I'm still a bit groggy.

Send a toast my way if you open up a bottle. If you're up there in yankee-land just aim your glass SW and it'll be close enough. I'm all out of good alchohol here, except a bottle of Hungarian wife (great stuff!) that I am saving for a special occasion, but I may have a raspberry smirnoff or two lying around.

[chromosphere]

"Like I've said before, try not to look too far into the future."
You are right ... hard but necessary at this juncture.

"Try and vent here, to friends, but not her. It will only make things worse at this point. She has made it clear through words and actions that she is not ready to really address these issues"
I have been holding back my vents, other than the grabbing episode yesterday morning.

"Do you have friends (other than us, lol) that you can spend some time with and get a shoulder to cry on?"
I do have a few, but they of course have their own lives. There is one guy I have been hanging out with a bit. He is a student of mine, but he is "non-traditional" (in his late 40s) so I really don't think of him as a student. Besides, he actually wouldn't care if I gave him a bad grade, he is in it for the knowledge (which is why he always does very well in my classes). Basically, I am just trying to head off any comments about conflict of interest. We've gone out and had a few beers. He works in a liquor store part-time so he knows some cool drinks. Every tried a caramel martini?

I've got a few other friends, but I'm always afraid of dumping on IRL friends. Unfortunately, the one friend I don't mind dumping on, because she has done the same to me, is the mutual friend. I also email the counselor some, but she usually takes a few days to get back to me, then the reason I am down is passed.

"They are not going through it so it is harder for them to understand and give feedback."
Another big problem with the people around here. The student friend has come closest, but he is many years past those problems in his life so he has a hard time remembering how it felt while in the midst of them.

"Still, getting a needed pat on the back or hug helps. You are defintely in need of some TLC and TOUCH"
That is the biggest problem. I don't have anyone for TLC or touch friendship. If the wife doesn't touch me, I don't get it at all, which means I mostly don't get it at all. Sucks.

"I sense you feel the same way so it's nice"
I do. You have definitely been more help to me than I have been to you ... so far. I will return the favor.

"Differences? What?"
I know, I was shocked when I realized it.

"She is probably feeling overwhelmed, tired, and let's face it, angry at you."
Overwhelmed and tired I can sense. But if she is angry with me, let it out. I want to hear it.

"MAybe your W is thinking something similar."
That could be. She may be holding it in hoping this will all go away and we can just focus on the kids. She may feel like if she opens up to me, I'll just turn it around on her, or won't listen to her and just focus on my issues. But if she truly would tell me point blank, I don't like X and Y, I would definitely listen and change my behavior. The problem is all this trying to figure out clues based on how she is acting. You guys have been a help, but it is still hard.

"How is that possible"
Most households have a coffeepot in the house, and some even take the time to get the nice coffees (Gevalia, etc.). Not only are there no coffee shops, we only have fast food, two mexican restaurants, two chinese restaurants, and one "grill"-type restaurant. No italian (my favorite), no seafood (my second favorite), no nice sit-down places, etc. etc. etc. Lots of fried catfish places though. (that's me barfing).

[chromosphere]

I think you misunderstood the context a bit. She was saying that I grope her all the time, not that there is nothing to say all the time.

I will definitely address her hurt, if she will just communicate it to me in a way I can understand. I have tried to have the heart-to-heart. But I am backing off now. I'll try again later.

[LustForLife]

Ok, just got the kids down for the night. I've got my wine and M&M's in front of me so life is good again. LOL

So you feel as if he is holding back some too, not wanting to fully commit to the relationship?
No, I think he is wanting to commit but knows that I am struggling a bit so it lying low for a while. Just what you should be doing
You feel like a door has been opened in your life, a door that has the promise of greener pastures on the other side. Closing that door and tending to the weeds on your side of the door is tough. YES. I know the greener pastures grow weeds too but that excitement of the unknown is what makes it hard to fully commit back with H since we have weeds popping up everywhere and no lawn boy to help me with it LOL. Ooooh, speaking of lawn boy, Desperate Housewives is on tonight. Guilty pleasure.
I had this image in my mind of people just being able to divorce on a whim, the so-called "no fault" divorces. No. NY is NOT a "no fault" state. It much harder to get a divorce without cause. One year legally separated or one of the faults mentioned. If the parties are not in agreement (as to fault, which is usually the case) it is quite a legal mess and time consuming. Might as well wait out the one year with no fault.
If you don't do anything about it, does it just expire after one year? No. You can stay legally separated indefinitely. That is why some religious couples separate and never divorce. The legal separation is just to protect you financially, deal with custody, etc. You will not be divorced until you go before the courts again (after the year is up) and file for divorce. Either party can make it official after the year is up. You do not have to be in agreement. All legal/marital issues should have been spelled out in the separation agreement. Now that I've put you to sleep, I'll move on
I think you are doing a fine job. Invest/commit at your own pace. Thanks, I try. I do need to go at my own pace. Thankfully, my H has been understanding. I know this is where you struggle because you have a much faster pace than your W right now but hopefully she will catch up. I think you and I both tend to dive in head-first without seeing how deep the water is. Are you saying we are impulsive, don't think things through enough, do what feels good at the time, listen to depressing music when already depressed, get involved with other people while in a mess of a M? no way. Or as you like to say: NOOOOOOO! Love that So we have some faults, at least we have each other to keep each other in line. Sort of.
He may be just like you, afraid to take the plunge back into commitment because he is unsure of where you stand. I'd better stop before I give you bad advice. Don't ever be afraid to give me advice. It doesn't mean I'm going to take it I think you were right on the money when you said he may be afraid of the commitment because he is unsure of where I stand. That's true. I am not sure of anything anymore!
I have had several people telling me here that I need to back off, be happy, etc. etc. But inside I am just dying. I know. It's an absolutely gut-wrenching feeling. I have not words of advice here just empathy.
Not knowing where she stands on the important issues that are going through my head drives me batty. I am going to take the advice from others and leave her be, but I've got to find a way to not go crazy in the meantime. My H probably feels a lot liek that too. He senses I'm still a little "off" with the whole M thing although I am covering it really well. Inside, like you stated, I feel like I am dying (sometimes). Hate those moments Am I doing the right thing? Why am I even trying to make this work? It can't be just about the kids. Will he up and leave again? Will I?!? UGH. As far as not going crazy, do what makes you feel better. I like to post on here, exercise, watch bad tv, eat chocolate you get the idea. Find ways to either vent your feelings or escape your feelings. It will help while waiting for the W to get on board so to speak.
Also, as far as the affection goes, I am really worried there. I have this sinking suspicious that if I do back off of the affection, IT WON'T BOTHER HER ONE BIT!!! In fact, that is probably what she wants, to not have to deal with me on a physical level And thus, you attempt things like the "groping incident" to test the waters. It sucks because she tells you flat out she does not like it but if you don't do it at all, it's almost worse. Sure, you won't be shot down but I'm sure you are afraid that your own resentment will hit a breaking point and if you don't try anymore that means YOU don't care anymore. Then where is the M? Total detachment on both ends. That's where H and I were right before the separation. Neither one of us were really making any efforts anymore to work on the EC, the SL, anything. At least you can bring this all up in MC.
I know what Blackfoot says is that I should act like she really does want me. But what if I truly don't believe that in my heart. I think Blackfoot is off on this one. Your M is too far gone to just "act as if" at this point. Your W will NOT be receptive as she has proven. I don't know what she is thinking but she probably has a lot of resentments and hurts that will NEED to be somewhat resolved before the affection is back on track. Do you not believe that she wants you anymore? Loves you? Does she say she loves you even if she doesn't act like it? Has she brought up OW at all? If I were her I would be asking a lot about it I would think. "have you talked to her?" all that stuff. Then again, I'm slightly less avoidant than your W so who can say. I'm a freak of nature!