"Women have a position 'role' to play, likewise men also." I can understand that intuitively. Its just some of the details of those roles that are causing me difficulty. I guess it is because I never really gave it much thought before, so it is mostly new to me. I heard someone say that it takes 6 times hearing something before it sinks in.
"Wanting it to be different and not dealing with the biology of it will cause you to endlessly bang your head on a wall." I know that feeling.
"You should not deny or hide, but it cant be allowed to dictate to you like it does to her. LFL said she would respect her H if he said I want you to clean the house and admit his feelings. not be P/A, and not deny. make it a statement. that doesnt always mean you will get it though either. LOL." I think I can understand this.
"Cobras Model is exactly right, and it is not that difficult. there is no subterfuge when you understand that it is that way. Its different then a man, but it is that way. Diagram it out, its far simpler then calculus, to see guaranteed. Not neccesarily to deal with though LOL."
The subterfuge I see is that you pretend to accept your W's words while secretly thinking "she'll just change her mind later." I do understand the concept, but it borders on being patronizing which I abhor. I'd rather just say "I don't like what you are saying to me (or this negative feeling you are having) and I hope you reconsider it and come to a better conclusion later." Is this wrong-headed of me, or am I just misinterpreting your's and Cobra's words again.
Oh, and calculus is a bad example. Calculus is very elegant in its simplicity. It makes problems easier to solve IMHO.
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
"Blackfoot, when you said "don't internalize it," that was exactly right, too." See this is where I'm having some trouble collating everyone's points. It seems that some are saying don't let it out, hide your feelings, and turn the situation around to something positive (do a 180). While on the other hand you are not supposed to internalize things. Either I am just not getting it (99% probability) or there is a contradiction here.
"People do change and they have to be allowed to change. I think one of the bad things that happens in a long term R is that both people get locked into each other's expectations and it's hard for one person to do something different and hard for the other to allow them to be different. That's one of the things about the affair that is so freeing-- you're with someone who has no expectations of how you should be, so you can behave very freely."
I think one of the main problems in my M is that I have changed dramatically in my wife's eyes, and she probably associates all of that change to OW. From my perspective though, I have just broken out of a shell caused by years of rejection and poor communication and found my true self. How do I get my wife to see that this new me is truly a better me and that even though it came about as a result of the EA, it is a good thing in the long run? Also, I cannot go back to the old me, and even if I could, the old me was bad for our marriage. I guess the answer is time, continued effort, and patience.
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
Quote: The subterfuge I see is that you pretend to accept your W's words while secretly thinking "she'll just change her mind later." I do understand the concept, but it borders on being patronizing which I abhor. I'd rather just say "I don't like what you are saying to me (or this negative feeling you are having) and I hope you reconsider it and come to a better conclusion later." Is this wrong-headed of me, or am I just misinterpreting your's and Cobra's words again.
I don't think it wise to discount what your spouse says. I also don't think it wise to think that every utterance, especially in the heat of an argument should be given the utmost creedence.
One of the things I did notice after reading through NOP's posts here prior to my joining was the amount of import that was placed on some things I had said or done. I'm not talking about the times when the assessment was totally off-base, but rather when it was being read and picked over as if they were chicken entrails from which a greater meaning could be determined. And when it was only some off-hand remark or action, that didn't have a greater underlying meaning. I've seen that happen repeatedly with other participants, so it wasn't/isn't exclusive to our relationship.
The goal is to hear what your spouse says, place it into context, don't ignore it when the meaning is clear, but recognize that it is what she/he is saying and/or feeling *at that moment*. Have you posted some examples of the type of interaction you are referencing?
Quote: Got locked out again. I hope it isn't something bad I'm doing.
Unlikely, globule. The administrators here lock threads when they accumulate "too many" replies. How many is "too many" does not appear to be a precise measurement, but it seems to be somewhere greater than 100 replies to a single thread. It's nothing personal, and probably just has to do with the fact that the message board UI becomes unwieldy when threads start getting that long, and information becomes hard to find.
- "A"
"Everything that happens, happens. Everything that, in happening, causes something else to happen, causes something else to happen. Everything that, in happening, causes itself to happen again, happens again."
"Haven't you talked to her about this? I mean her desire for sex, not her ploy. Did you talk to her about that week she wanted sex and now does not? Does she give you any answers?" We have talked about it a bit, and her answer is "I don't know, but I think my hormones were finally all in sync for the first time in our marriage." I plan to bring it up as an issue in MC. This issue really is the fig leaf for me. If I can truly believe that she can be that way again, then the waiting becomes MUCH MUCH easier. The problem is her answer to can you be that way again is "I don't know."
"I remember you saying in one of your posts that you were afraid what the answer would be. Can't blame you there." I am afraid but I also need to know the answer.
"Is she the one who came up with the 1 year (gulp) time line? Sorry for blasting you with all the questions but you know I am genuinely interested and care about you Globule so I am rolling along with my assertive self" Yes. She is the one who basically stated that she wouldn't be interested in sex while she was nursing. I think she is basing it on what happened while the twins are nursing. The counselor validated that thought. I asked the C about reading sex books and her answer was, "she won't be interested in sex for one year so don't torture yourself thinking about it." Yeah right. She don't know me very well (said in a Bugs Bunny voice).
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
"This double standard is very frustrating to me and is part of the reason (I think) that men find it hard to honestly validate women. We don’t always trust that they know what they are saying. The best I can say is that I completely believe that women believe what they are saying. KWIM?" I think you summed up a lot of my dilemma. How can I honestly proceed with a plan to improve the M if I am constantly second-guessing whether something we agreed upon yesterday is still agreed upon today, or that an argument a couple of hours ago, is really not an issue now. Am I thinking too logically here?
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
"Can't speak for your W but most people believe doing a 180 is needed in long-term R's that are going stale. So whatever you have been presenting to her (and you know perfectly well what that is), try and do the opposite. Monitor results."
The problem I have with that philosophy is that if I take it literally, I would stop doing the dishes, I would stop changing diapers, I would stop giving the twins their bath, I would stop cleaning up their toys, I would stop giving my wife affection, I would stop saying I love you, I would stop telling her I am attracted to her, I would stop giving her gifts, I would stop asking for a affection from her, I would stop asking for sex from her, etc. I don't want to be in that kind of relationship. Am I getting this all wrong?
"On a personal note, I find you are one of the most attractive men on this board." One of the most? Who ranks above me? I'm gonna kill 'em!!! You're number 1 for me on this board, why aren't I number 1 for you. (sniff sniff) How's that for a guilt trip?
"You are emotional yet can intellectualize your situation to realize when your emotions are detrimental. Not that you always know what to do with those emotions (and who does really), but you have a strong sense of self-awareness. You are analytical. Love that! You take suggestions/opinions/advice very well. You are very sensitive. Some women would probably think you are too sensitive but I think it is very attractive." Thanks. I think I'm blushing. Not very manly of me.
"But, I'm not your W. I only "see" you through this computer screen. Don't have to live with you day in and day out LOL. It's not a realistic assessment of you as a person but your persona on the boards is very appealing (to me)." Fair enough. I'm sure if you saw me sitting in front of the TV scratching my balls (apologies to Al Bundy) you'd rethink your opinions.
"Can't speak for all women but since we're friends I thought I would share that with you." Glad you did, thanks!
"Don't discount these traits as not attractive - in general. They are! BUT since you are working on your M you need to figure out what traits/behaviors SHE finds attractive to HER. Yet, STILL KEEP THE BEST PARTS OF YOURSELF INTACT." That's going to be tricky based on what I am getting on this board. What I consider to be the best parts of me seem to clash with what others are saying I should do. There are very big parts of me that I can only express to my wife (or on an anonymous message board). My sexuality, my desire for affection, etc. Expressing that to someone else is cheating or at least and EA. I guess my dilemma is that our culture says you should reserve all of your sexuality for your spouse. But my spouse doesn't want my sexuality. What do I do with it? Can't bottle it up anymore.
"You cannot change for someone else. You are who you are. She needs to accept that or not. Just like I need to either accept my H for his BASIC qualitites that he will always possess or not. Sure he can tweak it here and there (and that is working), but he will never be someone that he is not at his CORE. You can get into all the FOO stuff and biological/genetic traits that are inherited (more nature than nurture), but figuring out which ones are which is the hard part." This is one of the things that worries me the most. My wife and I do have a lot of incompatibilities. Some of them can be fixed, but some of them I am not sure of. Some of those incompatibilities could kill our chances for a happy marriage.
"Is your W genetically programmed to simply be LD? Is her FOO such an influence on her sexuality that breaking through that influence will be near impossible? Can't say for sure but let's face it, it's going to be a very uphill battle. She never was HD so it's not like she lost it, and she does not show any real affort AT THIS POINT to change." This is one of the things that keeps me awake at night and on this board so much.
"Then again, my H was LD throughout our M and now we are having frequent sex. Needed to go through hell to get here but never say never. My gut is telling me you are going to need a major shake up in your own M to see any real effort to change on your W's part. You'll figure it out Globule." This is my hope, that somehow, somewhere, sometime our marriage will have a fundamental shift. I hope it doesn't require going through hell to get there, but if it does, I'll bring a fan and a lot of water.
"You have friends to get you through it!" Makes me feel a LOT better knowing that.
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
"I remember something that happened with my late husband. Our SL had become pretty lackluster due to various things. I remember one night in bed I just rolled over toward him and planted a big wet kiss on him like the way we used to do when we were first married. He didn't really respond, and when I broke the kiss, he said, "What are you doing?" I said, kind of miffed, "I was kissing you." He said, "Well, that's not our accustomed pattern." Needless to say, that killed the mood, and I never did that again. (My bad, but somewhat understandable.)
My point is that both parties try to define and predict each other, even if the definition includes expectations of spontaneity. It seems hard to react honestly in the moment without being burdened too much by past or future, kwim?"
What an awful story. Killing the mood would have been my first reaction.
Getting away from past behaviors is one of the hardest things for me, and I think going to be hard for my W too. It is amazing how adaptable we humans are, but we still try to force ourselves into little boxes, some a lot smaller than others.
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
"they were chicken entrails from which a greater meaning could be determined" Voodoo, eh?
"Have you posted some examples of the type of interaction you are referencing?" Nothing specific. I'll wait for something to come up (I'm not going to go pick a fight in the name of science ) and then give it as an example for dissection. Thanks for the implied offer of help.
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
Not very manly of me. 