“…doing something that you know in the long run is good when there are no benefits now.” I don’t think this is true. Read what Blackfoot and HP just said. They too do not believe your wife wants divorce. HP make a great post on BF’s thread about this and how the woman tries to read the man.
I understand you are depressed right now and it is difficult to see anything down in a hole, but intellectually can you appreciate how your current emotions totally distort how you are evaluating things? If you could climb out of your hole and then look around, you could see the rest of the world and realize the blinders you had on. Those blinders are your emotions.
Right now there is no way for you to “feel” this, you just have to understand it. But as you climb out, the 180s can make a difference a lot sooner than you think, especially if she really wants a marriage (which the consensus here seems to think). If she is really finished with you, then none of this matters, but you have not said anything that would lead me to believe that. So I don’t see any course of action other than moving on the advice that everyone is giving you and forcing yourself to override your emotions and take an optimistic position.
And by “wrongo” I mean your evaluation that my wife is only mad for a short period of time. In her mind, she is mad and will remain so FOREVER.
"She had her own motives beyond hot sex there for sure." I have wondered about that with the second pregnancy and it does bother me a bit because she knew I was a bit leery of having another child. Its one of those things I just need to let go of because there is nothing I can do about it. I fear you are right about her motive (to have the new baby). But so what now? You are also right that you have to let that go or the resentment will continue to grow. Geez, if I held on to everything my H did with ulterior motives I would have been in on to H number 2 already, preferably with house on beach and Javier the pool boy fetching me pina coladas. Hmmm...come to think of it...Maybe I should re-assess this H situation. Just a joke!! If I don't laugh I'll cry
Have you found that doing that periodically helps clear your head
Clearing your head is not the goal for you with this exercise. I have been practicing clearing my mind for over two decades now and with the exception of affair am able to drop into 'no mind' state pretty rapidly. ( I can block it, but I have trouble processing thru it.) I let it slide for a long time there, ironically when I needed it most of course. Clearing your head is a differnt exercise.
Try out the suggestion, or some variation of it, i.e. go to starbucks and do it for 20 minutes. Let me know what happens.
Quote: she told the counselor as honestly as she could that there was no way she could ever see having sex with me again. The feelings were not there and too much damage was done
Never believe what a woman says especially when it has the word feelings in it. Yeah she feels that way, hence is thinking that -at that time- but feelings change. often daily. And pretty rapidly when you dont have a negative reaction to them. Let it go in one ear and out the other.
Women know (not on a cerebral level neccesarily)they are emotional creatures, if you act like one she wont be able to(someone has to have a grip), or trust that she is safe to be one, nor will feel attracted to you.
"They too do not believe your wife wants divorce." I guess the benefit is that my wife is willing to stick around for now. But is she doing from her own fear of seperation, or because of true love for me? I would like to think it is out of love, and I will try to base my actions on that scenario.
"I understand you are depressed right now and it is difficult to see anything down in a hole, but intellectually can you appreciate how your current emotions totally distort how you are evaluating things? If you could climb out of your hole and then look around, you could see the rest of the world and realize the blinders you had on. Those blinders are your emotions." Couldn't agree with you more. But even the stalwart Blackfoot admits in his post to me below that he allowed his view to be distorted by the stress in his life. Telling youself intellectually you are doing something stupid is easy, changing your emotions to be in-line with your intellect is hard.
"But as you climb out, the 180s can make a difference" I guess I need to get Michelle's book and see some examples of these 180s.
"If she is really finished with you, then none of this matters, but you have not said anything that would lead me to believe that." I don't really believe it either. I hope I'm not wrong.
"So I don’t see any course of action other than moving on the advice that everyone is giving you and forcing yourself to override your emotions and take an optimistic position." Easier said than done, but you are right. I'll work on it.
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
she told the counselor as honestly as she could that there was no way she could ever see having sex with me again. The feelings were not there and too much damage was done
Never believe what a woman says especially when it has the word feelings in it. Yeah she feels that way, hence is thinking that -at that time- but feelings change. often daily.
Au contraire-- believe her! But as blackfoot correctly continues, this is a reflection of how she feels right now. And yes (lucky for you and all of us) those feelings do change.
Globule misinterpreted cobra's quote and said it would be a deal breaker for him if his W said "no sex ever again." But that's NOT what cobra's wife said. What she was said was (in effect), "Given the way I feel about you right now, I cannot see myself having sex with you ever again." And the implication is if those feelings change, then I might. Clearly the feelings did change.
Blackfoot, this: "Never believe what a woman says especially when it has the word feelings in it," was such an unhelpful way of putting it. Discounting a woman's feelings is not the way to her heart... surely you've figured that out by now.
Just to be sure I am not misinterpreted, I do understand the importance of validating a woman’s feeling. This is one of the complaints my wife originally had against me when we first went to counseling. Now I feel I acknowledge everything she complains of, but she won’t acknowledge any of my complaints, but more of that later.
But for us men, we must always keep in mind that while we validate what she is saying, we must not take it to heart that this will be her position tomorrow. It is only her position today (regardless of what she says otherwise). For the most part, I would not say women have this dilemma when evaluating a man’s comments. This problem is unique for us men. And in that way I think Blackfoot and I are in agreement.
“Discounting a woman's feelings is not the way to her heart... surely you've figured that out by now.” This comment also highlights our dilemma and I am not sure how much women appreciate this.
1. We must validate her feelings now (she is PO’d) 2. We must keep in mind the door is still open and she expects us to come through it (even though she says it is nailed and welded shut) 3. We must ignore this negativity and anger and push for reconciliation 4. We must validate her feelings later (when she is not PO’d)
So for us men, when at point 1, we must acknowledge the feelings she expresses while at the same time quietly ignoring those feelings in order to get to point 3. When we are finally able to reconcile, we must honestly acknowledging her feelings at point 4, but we must never let on that we secretly had to discount her feelings at point 1. And while at point 4, we are secretly discounting her latest feelings since we don’t know how much longer before we end up at point 1 again!
"I fear you are right about her motive (to have the new baby). But so what now? You are also right that you have to let that go or the resentment will continue to grow."
Well, the problem is that the week that she conceived S<1 is my only memory of her wanting sex from me and directly asking me for it. I'd like to hold onto that memory as her hormones were finally in order and she allowed herself to do something that has always been inside her, and THUS CAN COME OUT AGAIN. If instead, it was just a ploy to get another baby, I am left with this giant uncertainty as to whether or not she will ever have the desire for sex.
"Just a joke!! If I don't laugh I'll cry" I'm the same way, sometimes making fun or making light of bad situations is a quick outlet to keep you from going mad.
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
"Try out the suggestion, or some variation of it, i.e. go to starbucks and do it for 20 minutes. Let me know what happens."
OK. Starbucks? I wish. There is not a coffee shop around here within a 45 minute drive. Fast food and fried catfish restaurants are what we've got.
"And pretty rapidly when you dont have a negative reaction to them. Let it go in one ear and out the other." And then turn it around to something positive.
"Women know (not on a cerebral level neccesarily)they are emotional creatures, if you act like one she wont be able to(someone has to have a grip), or trust that she is safe to be one, nor will feel attracted to you." So I should deny my emotional side or just hide it from my wife? So me acting emotional makes her think that she can't be emotional? So women are not attracted to emotional men in general or just women like my wife?
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
"It is only her position today" The problem is, my wife doesn't seem to change positions as often as the women you are speaking of. Could it be that she is an anomaly (I'm not going to say "freak of nature" ), or is this just another case of me completely misreading her.
"So for us men, when at point 1, we must acknowledge the feelings she expresses while at the same time quietly ignoring those feelings in order to get to point 3. When we are finally able to reconcile, we must honestly acknowledging her feelings at point 4, but we must never let on that we secretly had to discount her feelings at point 1. And while at point 4, we are secretly discounting her latest feelings since we don’t know how much longer before we end up at point 1 again!"
Too much subterfuge for me. I'll never get that model straight in my head. Maybe I'm doomed to failure.
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
