That's kinda what has me lingering a bit. I am waiting to see how things turn out with her husband, not so I can jump into a relationship with her if it goes sour, but I would like to be able to help her like she helped me.
I don't buy this. I think this is how you would like to look at it. If a year from now she contacts you and you help her out she did you. Again you would be having a EA if you are still married. To help her out you would do that again? This is the one aspect where I think there lies a difference in our sitch. If I was to ever reach out to my friend again it would only be if my marriage was over. Not with a hope of making it more. That was not there when he was helping me. We have known each other since I was 11 years old. We have been friends for most of my life even if we do not speak to each other for years we were still friends. And I have that knowledge that if ever in this life time I need him he will be there. Not as a boy friend but as a friend. Now grant you we do have a history of being boyfriend and girlfriend from long ago. But it did not work. Our friendship did. So even thought I feel as if I lost my best friend and even if I miss the support I know it is not really gone but there is a barrier made of respect for my H's feelings that I will not cross as long as I am with him. And unfortunately you can sugar coat it anyway you want as to what your intentions would be as in to help her out. It is just a excuse to keep holding on when what you really need to do is place a simular barrier between you and OW out of respect for your W.
I have no idea if my W seems my emotional self as being manly or not. She has never said one way or the other.
Have you ever asked her how she views you as a person?
Unfortunately, the twins are regressing
That happens exspecially with how close they are in age. My D went through a stage of wanting to use the potty chair when I was potty training her brother. She was 5. Way past the potty chair age. But did not like the fact her brother had a special potty.
Well, I guess I didn't state very clearly the point I was trying to make with the quote you included, which shouldn't surpise you. I was not trying to minimize the choice she made. I'm sure she did what she thinks was best for her. I don't know the exact dynamic of how the choice was given to her. The main point I was trying to make was that the breakup wasn't something we both mutually came upon after reflecting upon the situation (which is what we should have done), instead it was a rather abrupt and unexpected end. Had it happened the first way, I probably would be mostly over it by now. But the way it happened left too many threads dangling, too many items that will never get closure.
I know intuitively that I need to make a complete break, but how do I make my mind just stop thinking about her.
"self-deceptive and self-serving" Words that describe me well.
"Energy expending toward the other woman, is energy stolen from your wife, your children and your marriage" And you forgot from me and my own journey to a better image of myself.
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
Quote: Well, I guess I didn't state very clearly the point I was trying to make with the quote you included, which shouldn't surpise you. I was not trying to minimize the choice she made. I'm sure she did what she thinks was best for her. I don't know the exact dynamic of how the choice was given to her.
The main point I was trying to make was that the breakup wasn't something we both mutually came upon after reflecting upon the situation (which is what we should have done), instead it was a rather abrupt and unexpected end. Had it happened the first way, I probably would be mostly over it by now. But the way it happened left too many threads dangling, too many items that will never get closure.
You seem to keep wanting to minimize her choice by your words - a mind game in which you tell yourself that secretly she still wants to be with you but she was *forced* by her husband to dump you. Earlier you said it wasn't her choice. You reiterated that thought here.
The reality is that there is no closure that would be truly good enough. Breakups of any relationship seldom occur because *both* parties want to.
Often, when affairees are posting about closure, it is a form of Hollywoodish star-crossed lovers, who are sacrificing their one true chance at happiness, while declaring their undying love for one another.
That is betrayal to your spouses of the crassest sort.
Quote: The main point I was trying to make was that the breakup wasn't something we both mutually came upon after reflecting upon the situation (which is what we should have done)
Why is this what you should have done?
Quote: I know intuitively that I need to make a complete break, but how do I make my mind just stop thinking about her.
Stop feeding the monster by discussing it with your mutual friend. It would also be of tremendous help if you weren't encountering her regularly at work. I don't know that you will stop thinking about her as long as you get to see her 5 days a week.
The endorphins and brain chemistry change that occurs during infatuation usually last from 6 months to 2 years. You're not merely battling thoughts, you're battling literal physical changes that have occurred. In fact, studies have shown that those brain chemical changes are conducive to obsessive thoughts.
In other words, it's not going to go away overnight. It takes time. That time is extended as long as there is contact between you.
I am not trying to bust your chops. I am trying to get you to look through the foggy assumptions and assertions with which you are dealing.
Quote:
"self-deceptive and self-serving" Words that describe me well.
"Energy expending toward the other woman, is energy stolen from your wife, your children and your marriage" And you forgot from me and my own journey to a better image of myself.
Did you have any of these feelings toward your wife at the intiation of your relationship?
You are right that was a very irresponsible and wrong-headed view for me to take. If the OW called me up today and said things were falling apart, there is nothing I could really do about it that would not immediately put my M in utter jeaopardy (sp?).
My thoughts have been all over the place today. Sorry about that. I really don't want to do anything to hurt my W more than I already have. I can't seem to get a good grip on all my feelings. I feel like I am in the middle of a tornado at times. I'm trying to feel good about myself and make good decisions in the midst of a lot of lingering guilt and uncertainty. Lack of sleep certainly isn't helping either (been averaging about 2 hours of sleep per night, I try to help the W get some sleep by holding the baby when it is fussy at night, she needs the sleep more than I do).
I have awhile back asked her what she thought of me as a person and she did make mention of what she thought were my defining qualities. None of them had anything to do with being emotional, except "generous to a fault."
We were just about to the point were potty training was going to begin when the birth hit. All thoughts of potty training are now gone.
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
Tell me this isn't cool! : While I was at the neighbors having dinner, H left a voice mail from Boston saying he got me an autograph from the lead singer of Keane! Sweet! Not sure how he managed to swing that one. Don't really care. The real question is, why is he there about to see them play live and I'm in front of the computer. Hmph.
Actually I am a military brat, which I'm sure has something to do with my impatience and difficulty making long-term relationships work (I basically had none outside my immediate family growing up). Interesting. OM was a military brat too. Small world. My education is definitely an anomaly in my family. Good for you then. he intentionally moved us out to live 1 hour away from school, and refused to let me get a drivers license, thus effectively shutting me off from any real friendship. He refused to let me go to prom, saying it was "a bunch of drunk teenagers getting drunker." Oddly enough he used to get drunk on occasion. He used to beat the absolute crap out of me That is horrible. Another reason I really have no tolerance for religious extremists/fundamentalists, well, if I'm completely honest, I feel organized religion in general is all about control and very little about spirituality, doing the "right" thing, being a "good" person. The hypocrisy makes me ill. Don't want to go off on that tangent though. No wonder you went on to become a scientist. All makes sense. Well like Ludacris says, men want a "lady on the street but a freak in the bed." Tee-Hee. Back to the Madonna/Whore complex again. OM used to make comments to me about this. He liked that I looked sexy but more of the "girl next door" sexy and not trashy sexy. His favorite was when I would come over straight from work in my "proper, businesslike" attire and he would, well, you know the rest. That was hot. The dichotomy again. Proper to the outside world but totally uninhibited in the bedroom. Who wouldn't love that. It's never as good if you just have the "slutty" or just the "proper" (at least not to a HD). It is amazing to see a bunch of old church ladies sitting around basically calling a young girl a slut if she is pregnant out of wedlock. So much for "love your neighbor", eh? Great example of the growing secularization of the church. Moving away from spirituality and towards the "Church" as a source os social control and one big gossip fest. Talk about needing to GAL. In a small town like yours it must be 100 times worse too. Warning: This is a hot button topic for me. You don't see the steam shooting out my ears right now but trust me, it's there. Glad to hear you are a scientist and not a Christian fundamentalist. The whole evolution/creationism debate you mentioned would probably send me off the deep end. I can respect people that have faith but not when they totally ignore scientific reasoning. Ok, I'm off on the tangent again. I could not live in a place where everyone hated me, and I don't think the W wants to move. That sucks. I don't think I could live around that environment. Let's hope they don't find out. I think that would stress me out just thinking of the possibility. Sorry.
"Earlier you said it wasn't her choice. You reiterated that thought here." I don't see how I reiterated that thought, but it wouldn't surprise me if I did. I know that she made a choice and that choice was not me.
"That is betrayal to your spouses of the crassest sort." You are right. I don't know how my wife can forgive me. I hope she will though.
"Why is this what you should have done?" I don't understand the question. Isn't it logical that we both should have become aware that what we were doing was wrong and made the decision to break it off before it got to the point that it did?
" don't know that you will stop thinking about her as long as you get to see her 5 days a week." I guess I didn't make myself clear earlier. I haven't seen her at all since a week before the breakup, I haven't had direct contact with her except two phone calls in which we discussed aspects of the project we are working on. The only information I have about her personal issues is from the mutual friend.
"I am not trying to bust your chops." Well let me know when you are going to do it and I'll be sure to bring some heavy-duty head gear.
"Did you have any of these feelings toward your wife at the intiation of your relationship?" Sorry I don't understand your question. Do you mean that I thought my wife was self-serving and self-deceptive? And I can't see how my second statement logical precedes your question. I guess my brain is all messed up.
Sorry LFL, I was trying to be Mr. Cool today. Didn't work for long. I'll do better tomorrow. Although I gotta perk up somehow before I go home.
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
"autograph from the lead singer of Keane" WOW! That is awesome. I know he'll probably never hear this, but "Good One H!!!!"
"Ok, I'm off on the tangent again." Yeah, sorry I brought it up. I get steam out of my ears too when I hear people saying that scientists who teach the Big Bang or evolution are no better than pedophiles since they both are corrupting children.
I will say that I try to take a reasoned approach to the creation science side. I realize that most people who adhere to that philosophy really just have a lot of misunderstanding about science and scientific principles. Most of them are not bad or stupid, just misguided by the few overzealous folks that know how to say just the right words to convince them that science is evil.
The example I brought up about church ladies is an overgeneralization of an actual event that I had the misfortune to witness. I'm sure that the majority of church-goers are not so crass. I shouldn't try to paint with such broad strokes. Sorry to the church ladies out there.
"I think that would stress me out just thinking of the possibility." It does a lot.
Quote myself "My education is definitely an anomaly in my family." I hope no one took that to mean I think I am smarter than my brothers or parents. My older brother really didn't need to go on to do what he wanted to do, my younger brother is very smart but has some acute learing disabilities that prevent him from suceeding in a college atmosphere, and my youngest brother just made some poor choices that his rectifying now. He may be the next to get a graduate degree and I hope he sticks with it.
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
"Good One H!!!!" I know! I get steam out of my ears too when I hear people saying that scientists who teach the Big Bang or evolution are no better than pedophiles since they both are corrupting children. You actually hear this? That is frightening. The Bible Belt at it's finest Here in NY, you don't get that too much. I am making the assumption you teach, probably college level since you said "lab" the other day. Me too! It's a 2-year college so they hire Master's level and not PhD's. The pay is too sucky lol. Don't want to get too specific but I teach a couple of different courses in the "social" sciences realm. Nothing like getting in front of a large group of students and corrupting their minds with my liberal propoganda. I even teach a section on sexuality LOL Wow, I'm really opening the vault today. I guess Blackfoot would be proud but I notice he has been avoiding this thread like the plague. Speaking of steam coming out of the ears, my guess is he is about to go ballistic on us for all of our A talk. Take a chill pill Blackfoot. Or better yet, join in the fun. I love a good debate!
"Did you have any of these feelings toward your wife at the intiation of your relationship?" Sorry I don't understand your question. Do you mean that I thought my wife was self-serving and self-deceptive
I think what Mrs. Nop is asking here ( man I hope I am not wrong here, normally I like it. ) is if your R with your wife initiated out of secrecy, deception, and a feeling of entitlment.... or being self- serving.
R with OW made you feel good, but it was also extremely self- destructive. It was not good for anything you want to accomplish.
Feelings are tricky, the stronger they are the more likely they coerce us into making the wrong choice. (speaking from experience here. ) Time to crush those biology driven thoughts, or get some help (meds) doing so. As an observer you are all over the place right now globule. HP is right all of this is going into your W's do not forget file of resentment.
Quote: "Did you have any of these feelings toward your wife at the intiation of your relationship?" Sorry I don't understand your question. Do you mean that I thought my wife was self-serving and self-deceptive? And I can't see how my second statement logical precedes your question. I guess my brain is all messed up.
What I meant was did you have similar feeling towards your wife in the beginning of your relationship as the feelings you have experienced with the co-worker?
In regards to the self-serving, self-deceiving remark - please know that I don't mean to single you out in this regard as being any more horrible than I. We're all guilty of it at times. Pointing it out to you was not for the purpose of judging you as "bad", but was for the purpose of "rethink this, there's some justification going on in your thought process."
Not sure how he managed to swing that one. Don't really care. The real question is, why is he there about to see them play live and I'm in front of the computer. Hmph. 
I even teach a section on sexuality 