HP, he is sharing what he is feeling now. That is a big, no gargantuan, step for him. He would have kept it bottled up before, leaving you totally in the dark
I agree with you GGB, but the way he is doing it(tentative and fearful, because of insecurity) and the circumstances that provoked it have left HP with some feelings of resentment and insecurity also. Crashing insecurities... but HP is showing a tremendous amount of loyaly, commitment, devotion, and maturity in her working thru this despite her lose of of those lovinnnnggggg feeelllingssss, whoooaa thoosssee lovinnng feeelingsss. (righteous brothers lol) Her growing up comment was very self-aware.
He is making behavioral changes but still talks a lot of crud.
His changes are being caused by your changes HP. 180's work but they are often only accomplished by us giving up control, which for must of us getrdun types is nigh on to impossible without our give a damn breaking. Ignore the verbal baloney for now. I know its extremly annoying to you. He is floundering right now, but if YOU can make it thru this, things will be much better on the other side.
The faults that I was accepting at the altar are in NO way the faults that I am having to come to terms with now. MrH is night and day from what he was 10 years ago
Of course not. Thats why marrying someone who we are IN love with is so easy AND so prone to failure. Marrying someone who we have no feeling for i.e. arranged marrige, there are no expectations. We are making a promise for some unknown future possibility.
I do think it is a good thing that we have the choice to divorce, but it is not a choice that leads to growth or maturity.
expected , if you wanna know the awful truth--a man who desired me and showed that.
did you expect them when you first met? Doubtful, most succesful R that lead to Marriage, have a decided lack of expectation. Expectations create such a tremendous burden that can be felt by the other person. When you drop them, you may and most likely will be pleasantly suprised.
MrH is stable, reliable, funny, generous, giving, helpful, kind, nurturing to our kids, strong, courageous, and faith-filled
he is not currently lusty, groping, aggresive with the sex, etc. I guarantee, were you to lose him for some reason you would soon be thinking of and remembering all the positives.
LFL, You know, the Success vs. Failure thing is all my own. I had this vision in my mind of what we were working towards and I foolishly did not stop to ask my mate if he shared this same vision. I could have saved myself a lot of headache. His vision is much less than what I was thinking of, but it's still okaaaaaay. It's not great passion but it's not awful either. Working together and creating joint goals sounds so...unpassionate...but I believe it's necessary. Good ol' communication about where you're going and how you're going to get there.
We have progressed SO much in the last 3 years. We are a shadow of the people who started down the road. Back then, we couldn't even utter the words sex or ML or any of it! We had sex in the middle of the night, at H's initiation, approx once every month to six weeks. It was dismal and lonely and awful. Now we talk freely, we are working together, and ML frequently. It's night and day. Despite the fact that I bitch a lot on my thread, I wouldn't go back there for all the $$ in the world. Things are so much better now, than they were.
I could outline all the ways in which we have failed to reach the mountaintop, but I won't. I think you have a good idea of the shortcomings in my R, anyway.
So I didn't mean to be discouraging! Keep at it and expect backslides and things to be alternately awkward and wonderful. It's the only way.
Cobra, Good gravy, so many questions. Where do I start.
1. He is the middle child of 5.
2. Introvert, who doesn't shout much but is not adverse to it, either. If the spirit moves him, he will let me have it. Not often though. I am animated but no longer a screamer (was in the early yrs of our 10 yr M).
3. Your assessment of me was accurate. I am assertive but NOT aggressive.
4. I am awesome with praise. I support him and he must have mentioned 10 times this weekend how he could not have made it thru 2005 (got fired from his job) without my constant love and devotion.
5. I am not critical of what he does with the kids. When he does something wrong, I will usually say it once and let it drop. Even then, we will usually make a joke of it. His parenting skills are not something I have problems with and I don't consider myself to be the Supreme Parent of them all, him included.
I found what you said about SAHM's to be interesting! Thank you for that perspective. My H is a very nurturing man and I have never feared leaving him alone with the kids, with the exception of a brief period of time early this summer. (job stress had him absolutely freakin out) He's a great dad. He contributes a lot to our nightly routine but still...there is a kernel of truth in there, somewhere, about what you wrote--about him feeling like I'm the center of the home. My opinions, wants and desires come first--yes, to ALL of that, except as it concerns the bedroom and church. Those are two areas he has chosen to assert himself in. He would say that this is the right thing to do...defer to me on matters of the kids...and I can't really argue with that. I AM the more intuitive parent and I have educated myself on childhood matters. He has not. All the same, this is not an area in which there is tension. He's perfectly happy to let me be the boss of the applesauce, and yet I don't lord it over him or make him feel inadequate. There are other areas in our lives in which he has the final say (finances, for instance) and it works in a similar way.
We actually get along quite well, from a practical standpoint, and have no big (or small) Getting Along issues, aside from intimacy.
Three years? Well, that makes me feel somewhat better I guess. Progress can be made but I can understand how despite the progress you can be just kinda standing there putting all your body weight against a closet bursting full of resentment. What I hear behind your words is a sentiment I often feel, "GD H, how hard is it really to kiss your wife, compliment her sexually and pat her @ss a couple of times every day?" The next thought that follows is, "If it is so dang difficult why did you marry me in the first place or why do you stay?" The mere fact that at least you are able to verbalize the words now and are ML regularly is a good sign. Mrs. Nop described the beginnings of their schedule on a thread and compared to that I think you are doing pretty well. I realize that you aren't on a schedule but H is at least showing up in the BR on a regular basis. Hopefully, the rest will come.
Quote: how hard is it really to kiss your wife, compliment her sexually and pat her @ss a couple of times every day?"
My H would say that it would be easy, were it not for our kids. I understand that, as a person, he is just more easily overwhelmed than I am, but how much slack do I give him in this area?
Should I be willing to wait until the kids are older before I expect this sort of thing to happen?
Lass, Last night I felt the anvil drop. I thought to myself, I love him and I want him. It was so strange, so bizarre. This whole thing has been the trippiest thing I've ever experienced, outside of giving birth. (now THAT folks, is a trip!)
It was as if all that resentment bubbling up in me the night before just bubbled on up and out of my body. We had a great day together, yesterday, and he even commented "Hey my old wife is back!" I asked what he meant and he said, Your kisses are warm again and you're looking me in the eyes.
Except...... LOL, isn't there always an exception.
When we got to bed, he promptly fell asleep. He didn't mean to, he was literally in the middle of a sentence, but still it ruined the mood for me. I woke him up a couple times but he kept falling asleep so I just let it be. I *really* wanted to ML and reconnect and let that anvil just hammer the crap out of my head, with all the loving feelings coming back.
So this morning I feel a little resentful that this didn't happen and here we are at the start of another work week.
It is hard not to personalize everything that goes on between us. I am working on it, though.
All in all, a good weekend. Could have been great, but isn't that the story of my life. lol
I think your H and my H operate out of the same rule book. Emphatically, NO, I don't think we should have to wait for the kids to grow up. I think it is good for the kids to see their parents interact in a mildly sexual way. Could Mr. HP see the value of this on the children's future development as sexual people? Could he see the value of this one the children's feelings of confidence that their parents are in a stable, loving, R? I ask you this because my H can give lip service to these two concepts but can't seem to act that out.
I still can’t get a good handle on why your husband avoids emotional issues and makes jokes of everything. Regardless of the source, I think it is to either 1) avoid too much intimacy, which is scary for him, or 2) to get attention (as the lost middle child). If 1) is correct, then there was some kind of trauma, fighting, etc., that you should already know about, but since you did not mention anything like this, I will dismiss it. So that leaves 2).
As I am sure you know, the middle child often feels lost. The oldest is the first to try everything and gets the praise from the parents. This is often the “model” child, being more responsible and following directions because it is expected. Even if the parents put more emphasis on the others, the middle child still feels like the oldest gets more since he/she still gets to go first on everything.
The youngest needs extra attention simply due to age, but because he/she sees the older sibling getting to do all the “neat” stuff, he/she can become very competitive. This can be for survival (to keep from being picked on of bossed around by the older siblings) or to be a clown and get attention in the only possible (since the youngest can’t compete on age, strength or intelligence).
The middle must find his way between these two factors and it can be a very difficult balancing act. Sometimes the middle child acts out, or is a rebel, turns to drugs, etc. Other times, they simply go quiet and accept a certain anonymity. I am the oldest of three boys and the middle was like this. He was more independent and adventurous, but did not bring attention to himself (later in college he came out of his shell with a vengeance). Perhaps some of this shaped your husband, so asking him to change his personality could be very difficult. I would think empathy is the best course, which you say you have done.
But his personality, combined with your personality and being a stay at home mom, probably relegates him to this “secondary” position within the family. It is a position he is comfortable with. You say “My opinions, wants and desires come first--yes, to ALL of that,….” He is not accustomed to asserting his rights in these matters, and he may not care to. He may be happy with the status quo, and in the way these issues are handled, so are you.
But it is very difficult to split the personality to be passive in one area and assertive in another. I don’t think the bedroom and the church count either. One concerns his basic image as a man (so he makes a stand) and the other is purely theoretical and intellectual (so he makes a stand). But you also say “He would say that this is the right thing to do...defer to me on matters of the kids...and I can't really argue with that.” On this point, I think he is simply falling back into that middle child mode. Everything seems to be going well, so let things lie. And you like having the control.
“I AM the more intuitive parent and I have educated myself on childhood matters. He has not. All the same, this is not an area in which there is tension. He's perfectly happy to let me be the boss of the applesauce, and yet I don't lord it over him or make him feel inadequate.” Again, falling back into his comfort zone, but here I think you send a strong subconscious message to him. You know better than he, and while he may agree with your positions, he’d better not try to challenge them. He thinks he is happy because this is how he has always been – deferring to others.
I was like this too with my wife and kids when they were small. But as they grew up and new issues evolved, I was not content to stand by and let my wife always run the show. There were some things I simply did not like and there is nothing like your children to force you to take a stand (and your husband is capable of doing this, as you say). I suspect and some point your husband will want to assert himself on child related issues, and then you two will move to a new level of conflict. He will be looking for his voice, for a greater level of control. If you can compromise, then great. If not, then you will have problems.
Just because he is not vying for more involvement/control, or is not concerned with your control over the family, doesn’t mean he is not acutely aware of where the line is drawn. Just because you are not a “bossy” type, doesn’t mean he doesn’t still know this. I wonder if in some way, he is afraid of you? It is up to him to address this, but obviously you can have a huge role to play as well.
My last thought on his being embarrassed to talk to you is in relation to his obsession with the church. Both these area seem to be link through a guilt issue. The church is certainly capable of imposing guilt on people (in fact I think it is an intentional ploy to ensure their survival as a power organization). Embarrassment is definitely rooted in guilt. So you may want to explore this further.
