He still stands by the idea that I am not sorry to *him*. And maybe he's right. Maybe I'm still too angry to be sorry to him.
I absolutely do not accept this. You know how "love is a verb"? Well, I'm thinking "sorry" is a verb, too. And you've shown him "sorry" in every conceivably important way. Please let yourself off that hook. Now. You've been about the future for awhile now, but he's still about the past. Whatever his issue is that prevents him from moving on to a healthy M with someone who wants one as much as you, well, it's safe to say at this point that's completely his issue.
And his comment about your trip...that just killed me. When's he going to get into the here and now? He'd rather be bitter, angry and resentful than happily married. Somehow that's working for him. Maybe only because it doesn't work for you? Or is he just more comfortable being miserable? I would love for you to be able to figure it out so you can get some clarity in how you're going to move him on or move you on. But I've learned sometimes we have to throw our hands up and accept that we don't really know what makes people in our lives behave in self-destructive ways.
And I'm pretty sure you know how I feel about the bed situation, but I'd be happy to discuss it again if you'd like.
As for your resilience, it's kicked in EVERY day, believe me. I hope it helps you feel better today. It doesn't usually take you long to bounce back. But if it does this time, that's okay, too.
Good luck!
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
This sounds like it is really bothering you. I'm sorry to hear that your PMA is also under the weather.
He still stands by the idea that I am not sorry to *him*.
Do you know what would make him feel like you were "sorry to *him*"? Have you asked him point blank, what words or behavior would demonstrate to him that would show that you are sorry? This would put some responsability to "move on", on him. I'm equating this to a LL. Some people need words of affirmation, some acts of service. Just what is it that would make him feel that you are sorry?
so his disrespect just keeps on goin . . .
Have you told H that you don't feel respected by him? Have you told him what behaviors and words of his make you feel like he doesn't respect you? Can you point out changes in yourself that you feel warrant his respect?
Sleeping anywhere other than my room just feels too much like a punishment . . Does anyone out there think it would be totally beyond my rights to move back in my room without an invitation from him
Have you tried putting it into the light of "I feel like I'm are at a point now were I'd like to move back into our bedroom. How do you feel about that?" That way you are initiating the action, but acknowledging that he has feelings about the situation. You can mention to him that you feel like you are being punished and that you would like to move past that toward a healthier R w/him.
(Mel) Sometimes I think you're fighting it just to prove to him that he's wrong. Does that make sense?
That's not my intent, but I do not deny that there have been and probably still are intense power struggles in our M.
(Mel) I should have gotten the massage
You say that like it's too late...you should get one! I have yet to cry...honest.
(Koshka) What do you mean by "work?"
I mean that it usually feels like this R will always be unsatisfying for me. And maybe H will always be unsatisfied with me. Like we just don't share the same vision anymore, the same lifestyle. If we were doing better, it would really bother me that he stays up so late every night and he's not quiet. To me, I need quiet time at night. I really *need* it. Not the TV blaring until 1:30 am or H working out with him music blaring at 11pm. The difference in our lifestyles has really gotten to a point where it drives me crazy, but to address that right now would be like putting the cart before the horse it seems. On the other hand, maybe not, because you'd think he'd at least respect me enough to be really quiet if he's gong to stay up late. But he can't even muster that. So, that's what I say when it doesn't feel like it will ever "work".
(Koshka) In a year and a half, has it gotten you closer to H emotionally? Has it made you feel better about yourself? Does it make you feel better about your M? Does it at least make it easier to get up for work? Hey, I like looking for silver linings, but that's a joke.
The only thing I could maybe answer 'yes' to is that H and I have gotten emotionally closer...was it a result of sleeping in the guest room or on the couch? Maybe. It's impossible to tell exactly why things have gotten some better. Maybe he sees my willingness to sleep in another room as respect for his feelings and that makes him feel more positive toward me. Maybe it gives him the feeling of control that he needed when he found out what I did. Maybe he sees this as punishment that I brought on myself. I have no idea. But the possibility is there that my staying out of our room has helped our R, if only because it has made him happy.
(Koshka) More importantly, what do you think and feel about it?
I think I can understand his feelings of wanting to keep me out of our bedroom. But I cannot understand the fact that he has actually acted on those feelings for a year and a half. I feel that if he wants to have this family, then he needs to accept this marriage. And to that, he would say "Oh, and that means I have to accept it on your terms right? How convenient for you. You betray the vows in this M, obliterate trust and you get to decide how things go from there". And when he talks like that, I really question the justice of acting on my own feelings. He has a point. But so do I. That is where the power struggles come in. In our M, someone always has to "lose". Someone's feelings always have to be more important than the other's. In my opinion, if he doesn't want to sleep in the same bed as me, I will have to respect that. But that means, he will have to decide where he will sleep then, because I want to be sleeping in my own bed.
(Mel) I mean, if you wanted to, if you were wanted there, wouldn't you be there?
In a heartbeat. Fear is the only thing that holds me back. Fear that it will set back the progress in our R and fear that it will begin another round of intense emotional reactions toward one another that escalate to the point of me having to call the police. I have to be prepared for what I will do if he counters my decision to move back into the bed the same way he chose to counter it last time. What will I do? How does a sane person deal with that?? Yes, those are very serious questions, lol. Help!
(Bud) And you've shown him "sorry" in every conceivably important way.
I would appreciate if you could be more specific about the ways you see that I have demonstrated that I'm sorry. Because when I say that I have, H always asks me "How? What have you done?" And I can't seem to come up with anything that doesn't sound miniscule when it is said out loud in comparison with the magnitude of what I did. It makes me sound like an idiot.
(Bud) And I'm pretty sure you know how I feel about the bed situation, but I'd be happy to discuss it again if you'd like
I would like your opinions on how to handle the situation, how to approach it and actually carry it out when and if he starts getting crazy like last time.
(Jabez) Have you asked him point blank, what words or behavior would demonstrate to him that would show that you are sorry?
YES, I have asked him several times. These are a couple of the reponses that I can think of off hand: "I don't know, but I can tell you I haven't see it yet" "Am I supposed to spoon feed you how to be sorry?" "How can you be sorry to me when you blame me that you did it?" So, that's been a cheeseless tunnel for sure.
(Jabez) Have you told H that you don't feel respected by him?
I don't recall a specific conversation, but I know what his response would be and I know I have heard these words from his mouth, so at some point I must have told him. He acts incredulous and turns it back to me "And you've respected *me*?". If I try to say yes, he will say "You hated me for YEARS, treated me like crap, how is that respect?" And of course, if I say 'no', well what right do I have to ask for something I have not given [in his eyes]?
(Jabez) Have you tried putting it into the light of "I feel like I'm are at a point now were I'd like to move back into our bedroom. How do you feel about that?"
Sort of. Our last conversation about it was probably the most productive. I told him that, although I wish things were different, that I respect his need to sleep separately from me. However, I think he needs to take responsibility for those feelings and sleep where he feels he needs to without dictating where I am or am not allowed to sleep. I can see that my words are perhaps "attacking". I admit I suck at wording things neutrally. Suck. Anyway, he said he can see where that may be a possibility but that we are a long ways away. A long ways. He refers back to needing to get back to 'ground zero' where we were before the A. Then we can consider how to go forward. He denies that anything he does is intended to be a punishment towards me. But then can you tell me why he got very angry and withdrawn when I tried to clean out the room I was staying in? Or why he flipped a lid and accused me of stealing from him (money from the home equity LOC) when I put a door on the room that I am staying in now? I can see lots of places where punishment seems to be exactly what he is doing.
So, the bottom line questions that I need help with are:
1. Is moving back into the bedroom putting my feelings ahead of his? 2. Should I risk setting back the progress in my R with him? He has told me if I moved back in, he would never step foot in that room again. That's not what I want either. 3. How do I handle things if he gets physical or otherwise abusive in an attempt to get me out of the room?
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
A year and a half of this, huh? Maybe it's time to see it for what it is and move on.
Bottom line: H's behaviors are aimed at keeping you away, pure and simple.
he would say "Oh, and that means I have to accept it on your terms right? How convenient for you. You betray the vows in this M, obliterate trust and you get to decide how things go from there".
He refers back to needing to get back to 'ground zero' where we were before the A. Then we can consider how to go forward.
He talks about resetting back to a former basis, but refuses to do so. If he can't get himself past the betrayal, there's no chance at all this is ever going to work out. If you push, he pushes back harder. It's truly abusive.
1. Is moving back into the bedroom putting my feelings ahead of his?
No, it's placing your feelings equal to his. He feels he can be there, and so do you.
2. Should I risk setting back the progress in my R with him? He has told me if I moved back in, he would never step foot in that room again. That's not what I want either.
You're not the one more actively blocking the progress.
His threat of what he would do indicates that he's not ever going to progress but instead sabotage every step of the way. That man has deep problems Heather.
3. How do I handle things if he gets physical or otherwise abusive in an attempt to get me out of the room?
(Jabez) Have you told H that you don't feel respected by him? . . . and turns it back to me "And you've respected *me*?"
I think that one way you have "respected" him is by sleeping in another room.
Is moving back into the bedroom putting my feelings ahead of his?
It depends on how you move back in. If you move in while he is away, even if you tell him, I think your putting your feelings ahead of his. If you start a dialog stating that your goal is to come to an agreement on how and when you can move back into "our bedroom", then your are respecting his feelings. Ask him what it will take for you to move back in.
Should I risk setting back the progress in my R with him? He has told me if I moved back in, he would never step foot in that room again. That's not what I want either.
I may be putting words into his mouth, but I think he was speaking in the context that if you snuck back in or forced your way back in. Have you asked him if he sees a time when he invites you back in to the bedroom. I would be careful of the wording here. If you use the term "allow me back in", or "let me back in" I think you give up too much power. How ever you word it, you have to let him know that you are not forcing your way back in.
How do I handle things if he gets physical or otherwise abusive in an attempt to get me out of the room?
Well, first if he says no, and has no idea of what it will take for you to sleep in the marital bed and is generally resistant to discussion of the idea, then I would think that you have to say something along the lines of "I'm not going force my way in, but I don't what to be sleeping on the couch when I'm retired either." and just let it hang there. I think that way you're voicing your wants, but also acknowledging his feelings.
It's important that you not take the attitude that you want to sleep in the bed b/c you deserve to (even tho you do), but take more of an attitude that you moving back into the room is a step in healing your R/M and that is what you want to do.
At some point in time I think that you may come to the conclusion that you can't and don't want to live like this anymore and will want to voice those feelings as well. Something along the lines of "I really want to get past what happened, I'm asking for you to forgive me. I am sorry for what happened. I want to understand how you feel, what it is that it will take for you to forgive me. I want to know what it is that will help you see that we can have a happy and healthy future together. If you don't believe me, and don't want me, then I don't see much point in us staying together."
(NY) A year and a half of this, huh? Maybe it's time to see it for what it is and move on.
On the other side of that coin, I was reading a book called "Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay" and the author is pretty straight forward and some people may think she has a rather flippant attitude toward divorce. With that kind of attitude, I was surprised to read something like "A year is not long in relationship years..." as it pertains to a trauma of some kind such as an affair. And she mentions five years as one of the benchmarks. So, you can look at the year and a half and go either way with it I guess.
(NY)He talks about resetting back to a former basis, but refuses to do so.
Most days, it feels like this is the case. But then he'll do things like tell me he felt like holding my hand but didn't because there's this wall. Heart felt honesty. And the next day we were in a store and he reached out and held my hand. So, there have been some improvements.
1. Is moving back into the bedroom putting my feelings ahead of his?
No, it's placing your feelings equal to his. He feels he can be there, and so do you.
This is a good way of looking at this, thanks.
3. How do I handle things if he gets physical or otherwise abusive in an attempt to get me out of the room?
Get out and don't look back.
Yikes. See why this is such a big decision for me? It could ultimately mean the end of my R if things get crazy. Um, crazier.
(Jabez) I think that one way you have "respected" him is by sleeping in another room.
Good point. I'm afraid though that the logical conclusion would be that if I *stop* sleeping in another room, that I've stopped respecting him. Not the case. It's just a matter of enough is enough. I struggle with the idea that it is not up to me to say when it's been enough.
(Jabez) I would be careful of the wording here. If you use the term "allow me back in", or "let me back in" I think you give up too much power.
I see your point, I'm assuming you mean only when I'm talking to him. Because in this forum, let's call a spade a spade. If he'd invite me in, I'd be in. So isn't that a matter of being "allowed"? You know how we all say "You can't control other people, only yourself?" It sounds like you are saying that that doesn't apply to my H. Or maybe you don't view it as controlling? How do you percieve it?
(Jabez) It's important that you not take the attitude that you want to sleep in the bed b/c you deserve to (even tho you do), but take more of an attitude that you moving back into the room is a step in healing your R/M and that is what you want to do.
If I deserve to be in the bedroom, why is it that his feelings on the matter have to outweigh mine? And for how long? Is it because I betrayed the marriage and thus gave some of my rights away until he such time as he gives them back? Do you think there is a distinguishment between his right to sleep elsewhere and my right to be in my room?
(Jabez) At some point in time I think that you may come to the conclusion that you can't and don't want to live like this anymore and will want to voice those feelings as well.
Some days it really feels like I'm there. H knows my feelings on the issue. We're thinking about buying a piece of property and building a house. Crazy, right? We're talking about moving forward as though our M was solid as a rock. On some levels, I think he needs to believe that and moving into a house that neither of us could afford on our own (and my willingness to do that) would mean security to him. But I don't even know where I'd be sleeping!!
H can carry a grudge in case you haven't noticed. Who knows how long this could go on. Some days it feels that if it's ever going to end, I'll be the one to end it. Jabez, do you think it's talking out of both sides of his mouth that he will have sex with me but won't sleep in the same bed? Doesn't that suggest that this is NOT about being hurt?? It seems that it is about a principle that H has set and now refuses to back down on even though it doesn't freaking stand for anything. Not anything good anyway. What a mess.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
I would appreciate if you could be more specific about the ways you see that I have demonstrated that I'm sorry.
Ask anybody around here what they would want their unfaithful spouse to do to show they're sorry; I'll bet you've done at least 90% of all of it. You have:
Broken it off of your own accord.
Had zero contact since then.
You have shown you believe it was wrong by these actions, and you have said you're sorry as well.
You've respected his desire to sleep separately. That's perfectly understandable on his part, for awhile. But you have gone way beyond what's necessary to show you're sorry. If he's able to bring himself to have sex with you, there's NO reason he can't sleep in the same bed with you.
You've respected his desire not to be in your truck. Again, there was probably a time when this was a necessary gesture. Then there was a time beyond that when you were showing how sorry you were by inconveniencing yourself to respect his "wounded feelings". At this point, it's just beyond.
You have dealt with his refusal to kiss you. Maybe none of the other points show you're sorry as thoroughly as this one. What he is doing with this has now damaged your R more than what you did, IMO.
The only thing left you could possibly do, as far as I can tell, is blatantly grovel for his forgiveness and I DON'T recommend that.
If you read him that list of how you've been sorry he might shoot down every point, saying it's merely what you owe him for what you did. But it's not. Either you're both grownups invested in making your M work or you're not; if he can't accept the truth that's plainly before him, you can't do it for him.
I would like your opinions on how to handle the situation, how to approach it...
Hmmm...gotta think about this some more...my first thoughts are probably too confrontational...just let me say you're doing him a favor by not sleeping there. Him "letting" you sleep there is *not* a favor to you.
...and actually carry it out when and if he starts getting crazy like last time.
How do I handle things if he gets physical or otherwise abusive in an attempt to get me out of the room?
Call the cops. I beg you. That's the natural consequence for those actions.
You're very strong, Heather. Don't let your strength trap you just because you can take it. I know H has good points. I know he's been hurt by what you've done. I give him that. But the bed, the truck, the kissing, and your legitimate fear of abuse? That's not right. You're strong enough to let this go on and on, but I urge you to pick a date and not take it after that. Don't stick around to see how long you can take it. Not everyone who separates gets divorced. Not everyone who lives together is in a real marriage. Separation might not be the end of hope for you; it might be the beginning. It's a last resort, sure. But you've given so much and taken so little, I don't know how many other resorts you have left.
If you have to leave to make your point, that doesn't make you the bad guy.
Can you imagine making this much effort in a different marriage, Heather? How wonderful would that relationship be? That different M could even be with H, but what you've got going right now has got to die.
You've overcome a lot in your life to this point and you've grown tremendously. Your happiest times are ahead of you. Believe it.
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
...do you think it's talking out of both sides of his mouth that he will have sex with me but won't sleep in the same bed? Doesn't that suggest that this is NOT about being hurt?? It seems that it is about a principle that H has set and now refuses to back down on even though it doesn't freaking stand for anything.
YES YES YES!!! "...it doesn't freaking stand for anything." YES! Brilliant.
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
Most days, it feels like this is the case. But then he'll do things like tell me he felt like holding my hand but didn't because there's this wall. Heart felt honesty. And the next day we were in a store and he reached out and held my hand. So, there have been some improvements.
His words aren't backed up by consistent actions. His words are therefore rendered meaningless. His main consistent actions are passively hostile most times, aggressively hostile at other times.
You focus on the other times he feeds you the "heart felt" words because that's what you want to hear, and are placing much weight therefore on that. That's not balanced.
Yikes. See why this is such a big decision for me? It could ultimately mean the end of my R if things get crazy. Um, crazier.
If by "relationship" we mean a loving, equal. respectful relationship, then it's been over for quite some time, if it ever existed in the first place.
What you have is a train wreck. It's not truly the kind of relationship one seeks to be in. There were problems before the affair. You had an affair to medicate yourself. OK, so it was the wrong thing to do. Point is, you tried to do something about your circumstances. Then you regretted what you did, came back and tried to repair the relationship, which is you still trying to do something to better your circumstances. Now, after a year and a half, all the while suffering outrageous behaviors by him, being sabotaged in everything you try to do to repair, being belittled and put down and blamed, you're still trying to better your circumstances. Your life with this man constitutes always trying to better your circumstances, but it never works out that way.
