Have you thought of saying something like, "I know you have a great love for your animals, but I don't feel that love is extended to me. I would be more open to having them here, participating in their care, etc. if I felt loved by you. These are the things that make me feel loved..." and list away GGB. It's ok to love animals, it's not ok to replace the people in your life with animals. I'm willing to bet it's not even good for the animal.
I don't mind the sun sometime
The images it shows
I can taste you on my lips
And smell you in my clothes
Cinnamon and Sugar
And softly spoken lies
You never know just how you look
Through someone elses eyes
BHS-"Pepper"
Quote: You cannot reason with her on the subject of animals, and every time you try, you will be defeated and frustrated. Her passion and devotion is not based on logic or reason, and you cannot reach her through these channels. I would have thought you would get this after 30 years. You say you've been accused of "having no feelings." Well, this subject is ALL ABOUT feelings, so it's no wonder y'all can't communicate on it.
Stop trying to have rational convos about the animals.
And Cine said
Quote: I know you have a great love for your animals, but I don't feel that love is extended to me. I would be more open to having them here, participating in their care, etc. if I felt loved by you.
Both of you have hit on different aspects of something that has rung true with me: this isn’t really about the animals. There are so many of them that the animals are an issue, but the bigger issue is that I feel that the animals are more important to her than I am. Another issue is the lack of respect that I feel. I’m beyond incensed when she asks about getting another dog, we discuss it, we agree not to, and she gets another one anyway. It’s offensive to me that she cares more about her dogs than her children.
Lil, it is feelings and it’s not rational, but we still need to communicate about it. How do I do that? I like Cine’s suggestion, but it would take some modification. For one thing, I don’t foresee any scenario where I would actually be happy with current animal population. They simply take too much time, too much money, and too much of our lives. Another problem is that we fit HD’s description of the co-dependent love addict and the narcissistic love addict. He said “This includes enabling, rescuing, caretaking, passive-aggressive controlling, and accepting neglect or abuse. In general, CLAs will do anything to “take care” of their partners in the hope that they will not leave—or that someday they will reciprocate.” of me, and it’s right on the money. I harbor all sorts of resentment about it, but I already devote so much to W’s animal obsession that I don’t see how I could possibly do more. I’m doing the “anything in the hopes that they will reciprocate” thing. That’s another pattern that I’m trying to break. I haven’t stopped, but it’s been waaaaay down since my give a damn has been on life support.
ZB, I think we married women from the same family. BB wants me to be the dogs daddy. I told BB, her idea was like playing a version of 4th grade house keeping. I wanted a real wife, benefits and all. Pets are OK but this playing the daddy part is too much for me.
Fourth grade housekeeping - I like that. And sadly, I think you're right. It's just like playing house: "I'll be the mommy, you’ll be the daddy, and Spot will be our baby." And the R seems to be stuck at that level.
W is happy and safe in the fourth grade version of marriage. The problem, at least for me, is that I'm fighting with diametrically opposed goals of my own. On the one hand, I want a real adult M. On the other, I want W to feel safe and happy. So I want things to change, but I don’t want to rock the boat and put W into the “crucible”. I know that things will never change if I don’t make W uncomfortable, but it’s tough for me to do that. Part of it is the conflict avoidance that I’ve repeatedly admitted to, but that’s not all of it. Another issue is changing something in myself that’s been akin to a core belief. I don’t really know how to put it into words, but that’s typically been the case when I get to something important for me to change. It’s just some kind of assumption that I’ve never really examined or questioned. When I can’t explain something I feel, it’s usually because I’ve never really thought about it.
I just feel like it’s part of my job as a husband, as a father, and as a man, to provide for my family and to do whatever I can to make them happy and safe. I’ve always felt that it was my job to provide for them – and that includes the aforementioned happy and safe. I’ve always felt that their happiness came before mine. Some of it is religious too. I’m probably misapplying it, but there is a lot in Christian teaching about being a servant, having a servant’s heart, dieing to self, and things of that nature. So somewhere along the way, I’ve absorbed the belief that putting others before myself is the right thing to do and makes me a better person – not to mention that it pleases God. But I don’t want to get into a theological discussion here (especially without MrHP), I’m just trying to help all of you understand where I’m coming from.
If you’ll remember, this same thing had a lot to do with coming back to W after we were divorced. I was happy and fulfilled with OW, but I had this nagging guilt over what was “right”. What I wanted was sacrificed for what was best for my daughter and for the duty I had to W and to God. So when you put it out there on the table and roll it around, I guess I wanted to do what was right more than I wanted to do what made me happy. That’s part of my struggle even now. I would be much happier if things in my M would change, but I feel that it’s “right” to put the needs and desires of others (W’s) before my own.
Oh ZB, You are his long lost twin. Except I'm NOT an animal person and never have been. I've never had a pet and doubt I ever will, unless my kids are successful at wearing me down. (that's their sad face there..)
Putting others needs above your own. Yes, MrH would say that is the "right" thing to do.
Inspect that closely. Is that true?
Sometimes it's true. Is it true ALL of the time?
Talk about 4th grade, LOL.
Naw, you know I love ya, it's just that this VERY attitude drives me bananas with H and I'm taking it out on you. He takes it to such an extreme that it ceases to be a good and right thing any longer. You know...almost anything taken to an extreme is going to cease to be "right".
I am going to keep this short for now, I am too exhauseted to get into depth with it so I am not going to quote a whole bunch of scriptures right now. If you want more maybe we can continue this later....
anyways. as the head of the house its your duty to do what is best for your family, weather that makes your wife "happy" or not. Yes you are correct in your comments about being a servant but -according to the bible since that is the line we are taking in this discussion- men are under the FATHER. Wives and children fall under the husband. If he makes his deciosn based on Love, he will do what is best for them and listen to their input. That doesnt mean serve them and their whims especially if they are detrimental to the family.
Right off hand the story of Job comes to mind, his wife erroneously told him to "curse god and die".
Did he listen to her? No.
Did he throw her out on her ear? no.
He made a comment that put her in her place, and then ignored her and did what was right.
This is an extreme example.
You have to be strong and earn and command respect. A woman CAN NOT trust a man who wont do what is best for himself. The attraction women have for men who are seemingly selfish is very telling. They trust the honesty of it and the attraction that it strikes mostly overwhelms any logic that would warn them of the dangers that often come with men who are naturally this way.
They do not have any feelings for men who put the woman's wants above their own needs and wants. You simply cannot kowtow to a woman, and ignore your own needs and have her respect you. You have power. You are obviously christian, so this power is God- Given to you as the man and you are expected to use it for the well being of your family. Use it.
ZBube, lemme mess with your head a bit... or should I say, lemme mess with your head some more?
The idea of putting others' needs before your own and being a servant is a good one. I know about the (supposedly) theological basis behind it. After all, isn't the Pope called "the servant of the servants of God"? (Note question mark outside the quotes. )
But maybe you haven't thought about it deeply enough. What about the commandment to "love your neighgor as yourself"? This implies that loving yourself is not only a good thing, but the standard by which you should measure your love of others.
However, I think the bottom line is this: the test of whether you are truly a loving servant and whether you are truly putting others' needs before your own in a healthy way and in the way that God intended (if I may be so bold as to speculate on God's intentions) is whether the way you are doing it brings you joy. That is the acid test.
Look at the people we consider truly holy, truly servants in this sense... Mother Teresa, the Dalai Lama, even the late Pope John Paul II before his decline in health. These people radiated joy. They put others' needs before their own and this act brought them immense joy.
Your sacrifice has not brought you joy. You feel imprisoned in a suit of armor called "duty."
As the man of the family who is committed to your family's emotional and physical welfare, consider the possibility that you would be fulfilling your "duty" on a higher plane if you stepped out front and led your W to a place of greater connection and intimacy? And if that means taking her outside her comfort zone, then that's what needs to happen.
If the flood waters were rising, wouldn't it be your duty to lead her to higher ground before you both drown? Well aren't you being engulfed in the floodwaters of resentment, apathy, and isolation right now? Are you fulfilling your duty to turn your head and let the water keep rising while taking no action to save the two of you?
I think a prayerful and introspective look at what your duties are as a husband, father, and spiritual leader of your family might lead you to a new set of conclusions. You're not responsible for your W's choices to follow you or not to a place of greater connection. But you are responsible for YOUR leadership of the family.
Many thanks to both of you. You both bring up some very good points that have me re-examining my POV. I'll refrain from saying any more until I've had time to reflect a bit. But thanks again.
A woman CAN NOT trust a man who wont do what is best for himself. The attraction women have for men who are seemingly selfish is very telling. They trust the honesty of it and the attraction that it strikes mostly overwhelms any logic that would warn them of the dangers that often come with men who are naturally this way. Oooohh. That's a good one Blackfoot. No wonder so many women are attracted to the "bad boy" or get bored with the "good guy." Makes some sense. I think you could reverse it and say the same for men. Whore/Madonna complex and all that fun stuff.
(that's their sad face there..)
