I guess the way I see it (if this helps) is you don't feel important, you aren't a priority (the dogs are)...but the dogs aren't the issue, your R is. You need to be concentrating on YOU and HER, not the dogs. I feel fairly certain if you try to bring up the dog issue...as an issue in itself, she will shut down and shut you out, she won't listen and she'll feel attacked.
You need to be coming at this from the "I" perspective, try to remember that and since that's the case...then doesn't it make sense that you approach it "I don't feel important to you."?
Bub (still like saying that) here's a suggestion. Write down the things she does/doesn't do (as a start) that make you feel unimportant or a non-priority. No matter what it is, dogs...coming to bed after you're asleep, not listening to you, whatever...it could be a very long list. Then take a good look at that list and rearrange it from most to least important.
What you've got to do is get it out of your mind and start putting it on paper, at least that's the beginning of "action". As long as you keep getting bogged down in thinking about it you will find it hard to "do" something about it.
Ok...now on to the next thing. No, don't wait to be provoked, that's a bad time to try to have a discussion like this. You need to do this when you are calm and unprovoked. I mean...wouldn't it have more impact on you if someone came to you without an argument taking place (or whatever) and said "we need to talk"...also if you do it in this manner you are less likely to become flustered.
Z-Bube... I know you have talked about this before, but how does W handle your daughters' interest in sex/romance? I am concerned they are coming of age with a mother who is walled off, controlling and sexually avoidant...perhaps this may be another incentive to get some confrontation going.
Correct on all counts. Why is it so easy to see other people’s problems and see what needs done? You’re absolutely right that the real problem is the R. I’ve been so focused on the animals that I had almost lost sight of that.
Quote: how does W handle your daughters' interest in sex/romance?
IHJ, you’ve opened a can of worms there. I have lots of feelings about this subject, but I don’t really know what to say. The cold hard fact is that W seems to be accepting of D17 having a BF, but I don’t think there is supposed to be any physical component to it. She’s made it clear that kissing is grudgingly accepted, but nothing more. Since our religious beliefs prohibit pre-marital sex, we’re in agreement on that score, but there’s still a problem with attitudes creeping in. I’ve had a number of sex talks with D17 and she gets two completely different messages from us. From me she gets that sex is good within the proper context: marriage. From W, she gets that sex is bad. Period. D and haven’t talked about our SL, as well we shouldn’t, but from things she’s said, I think she suspects that all is not well.
I know I’ve even mentioned that my mother has even mentioned being concerned about our daughters growing up and absorbing W’s twisted views on sex. And she doesn’t know the half of it.
I have an "animal adiction" that I have gotten undercontrol. Mostly due to the realization that my H is not capable of sharing emotional bonds with me, but its not my problem its HIS! At the moment, hes the pleasant "stray" that is in out of the cold as one of your wife's rescues.(I'm staring at that line, over and over, oh to have the self confidence to do something about that. NO MORE CRITTERS and place what I have to a reasonable number so that I have the freedom to act and fix this)
You are quite right that the number of critters limits the degree of care they receive. This in itself isn't too bad when you have healthy adult dogs; however, when their ages get over 12 and the health issues, blind, deaf, incontenent bladder/kidney stones start setting in, maybe even cancer, the bills become untollerable (easy surgery now-a-days for bladderstones is in excess of $750usd). You start getting a "family of geriatric" critters and you are forced to limit service. Then there is the ache of euthanisia for the favorite 16 year old, cuz its the kindness thing to do.
Sure the puppy is cute and you get such an emotional HIGH. Its almost like falling in love again. You experience the "dance of life". NOTHING can go wrong in the world (if the irritations dont stand between her and her momentary happyness)
I'm with GEL on this one...Why do you stay again? And, cuz I haven't read as much as I should have, why is she dependent on these animal ppl and dogs and not being fulfilled enough by the two legged family and you? Have you been able to get to the real root of that?
Pity me that the heart is slow to learn
What the swift mind beholds at every turn.
Edna St. Vincent Millay
Everyone is asking really quite thought provoking questions on this subject.
Quote: I'm with GEL on this one...Why do you stay again?
That one’s fairly easy. There are many reasons. I tried the D route and it never felt right. I felt a moral obligation that I just couldn’t get past. Kids. Religious beliefs. And in spite of everything, she really is my best friend and I do love her.
Quote: And, cuz I haven't read as much as I should have, why is she dependent on these animal ppl and dogs and not being fulfilled enough by the two legged family and you? Have you been able to get to the real root of that?
To take the second one first – no. All I know for sure is that she had/has serious FOO issues. She alleges sexual abuse by her older brother when she was a teenager. I’m still not sure there was any real abuse. I just don’t consider trying to spy on her in the bathroom to be abuse. It may not be right, but I don’t know that I would call a single incident of trying to cop a feel when she went to sleep on the couch to actually rise to the level of abuse. But as long as she believes it, it really doesn’t matter if it really was or not. In any case, she thinks she was abused, her parents didn’t believe her, and nothing was ever said or done. Whether that has anything to do with it or not, I really couldn’t say.
While it wasn’t sexual in any way, I’m far more likely to say that she was abused by her older sister. The sister was always trying to change her appearance and was always telling her how ugly she was. The sister was always trying to change her hair, her clothes, and whatever she could. She used to complain that W was too dirty (running barefoot and playing on the farm) and would put her into the bathtub and scrub her with a scrub brush and bleach.
W was also constantly put down by her mother. Even though her mother went to work and W took over all of the household duties (cooking, cleaning, laundry, etc.) when she was ten, nothing was ever done well enough to suit her mother. There’s a lot of hostility there still today.
What I do know is that she admitted to the C that she hates men. I also know that she has told me that she likes dogs better than people. That’s a direct quote right from the horse’s mouth. Listening to her talk about her childhood, the stories are all about animals – mostly her dogs, but cats, rabbits, her guinea pig, her sheep, her pony, whatever. But rarely about human friends. It always seemed a little strange to me, but I just wrote it off to growing up on a farm where there weren’t many other kids around. Of course there were kids in school and there was a girl her age who lived about a mile down the road. They were even friends and went bicycle and horseback riding together.
My personal opinion is that while a lot of that may very well have been bad, it was a long time ago and she’s supposed to be an adult now. If that history is really what created the person she is today, then it’s high time she put it behind her and joined the real world. But I think all of us here know that that isn’t going to happen until she wants it to. Maybe I’m an enabler who is allowing her to continue to live in that world. I don’t know. I do know that I feel overwhelmed and unable to deal with her. I also know that I’m getting tired of feeling so powerless and I’m nearing the point where my give a damn will be busted.
Would I still be just avoiding if I was thinking that I should go back to the C rather than or prior to presenting my list?
Quote: My personal opinion is that while a lot of that may very well have been bad, it was a long time ago and she’s supposed to be an adult now. If that history is really what created the person she is today, then it’s high time she put it behind her and joined the real world.
This is logical, but people don't work that way. If something wasn't resolved in the past, it remains as fresh as the day it happened. It's like it's sealed in a bubble and inside that bubble, it's still 1950, or 1970, or whatever. This is what therapy is for, to go back to those "bubbles" and open them to the air, so they can dissolve and heal. It doesn't happen by an act of will.
Ah, but that's my point. It's an act of will, which means there is absolutely nothing I can do until she decides that she wants to do something about it. I can try to create a sitch such that she does want to do something, but in the end, she still has to decide that she wants to get better.
As you said before, I've already used the big guns. And she didn't choose to get better. So what can I do now?
Quote: W was also constantly put down by her mother. Even though her mother went to work and W took over all of the household duties (cooking, cleaning, laundry, etc.) when she was ten, nothing was ever done well enough to suit her mother. There’s a lot of hostility there still today.
Same here and I saw some of the things that were not good enough for her mother according to BB. BB's mother was not that hard on BB and rarely said something negative, but to BB it was frequent.
Quote: I also know that she has told me that she likes dogs better than people.
Make mine 'she has told me that she likes dogs better than *SOME* people.
Quote: The sister was always trying to change her appearance and was always telling her how ugly she was. The sister was always trying to change her hair, her clothes, and whatever she could. She used to complain that W was too dirty (running barefoot and playing on the farm) and would put her into the bathtub and scrub her with a scrub brush and bleach.
Wow that had to hurt mentaly and physically.
The bleach part implies getting rid of some potential disease! or being too unclean to touch!
Quote: My personal opinion is that while a lot of that may very well have been bad, it was a long time ago and she’s supposed to be an adult now......But I think all of us here know that that isn’t going to happen until she wants it to
Right on ZB.
Quote: Maybe I’m an enabler who is allowing her to continue to live in that world? I don’t know.
cough, cough, um, you said it ZB. List possible ways you enable just for your own list. I did it ( went along with the extra animals) for a while, hoping BB would work through some of her childhood animal issues to resolution.
The resolutions never came on their own. I had to wait for 3 cats to die of old age and one cat peed on all of the carpets, ruined them and the sub-flooor until it became a me ot it situation. BB agreed the cat had to go but left it up to me to find it a home, hopefully with no other cats. (marking territory problems)
I did it (enabeling) too, but am trying not to by saying to myself, "would most reasonable people put up with this?" along with "I don't like the way things are going, I won't live like this for much longer, "do I end/stop the behavior now or do I end the R later?"
Even when I have things go my way (end the crazy behaviors) there is payback I deal with. So get ready for that too.
I have been watching the hurricane reports on FOX News. Hope you guys don't get too much damage.
ZB, you're right, it's an act of will for her to decide that it is time to make changes. Then the process of making changes takes time and is NOT simply a matter of a single act of will. You must continually make the act of will over and over again every day... one day at a time, one event at a time, one mistake at a time, one triumph at a time.
It's like learning a musical instrument. You DECIDE to take piano lessons, but then you have to find a teacher, practice, and make incremental progress... even once you become an accomplished musician, you still have to practice every day. It STARTS with an act of the will, but it does not end there.
In the movies when they show an alcoholic or drug addict who decides to go straight, the movie usually ends with them attending their first AA meeting... music swells, fade to a new sunrise, birds singing... all is well.
In real life when the alcoholic attends their first AA meeting, that's when the hard work really starts. Now they have to face all the crap that they've been too drunk to feel, AND they don't have their substance of choice to dull the pain. And they have to do this every g.d. day for the rest of their lives. Sure at first everyone is so supportive and so proud of you for making these changes, but a few weeks, months, years down the road, you're still slogging along, hurting, finding your way out of the forest.
It's like learning the piano-- you just wish you could sit down one day and PLAY! But the progress is slow and you may only see progress after years of work.
What is going to motivate someone to want to do all that work? She's used to things the way they are. You wronged her way back then. She's put up a wall. She gets emotional fuzzies (literally) from the animals. As you said, you used the nuclear option, so you can't threaten that anymore-- you can DO it again, but you can't threaten to do it.
It seems to me that if you want to create a sitch that will motivate her to change, you must make her very, very uncomfortable. She has to go into the crucible. Since you are a conflict avoider, it means BOTH of you have to go outside the comfort zone.
You are so right that as things stand right now, she has no motivation to change. She's unhappy but not uncomfortable.
Would I still be just avoiding if I was thinking that I should go back to the C rather than or prior to presenting my list?
No, that's not avoidance. For some reason, you are scared to face conflict with W; going to counseling will help to sort out why you are invested in this dynamic with her and help to make a change within you. For as much as we talk about your W, the issue really is with you, that you are maintaining this state of unhappiness. Lest you feel we are all coming down on you, your reaching out here is such a healthy step ( imagine how many people suffer in silence)...you are so bright, articulate, and aware of the issues...I think C is another step in the right direction.
