Quote: I already stay at work too long just to avoid going home. Just how is it going to get worse?
Just keep doing what you are doing, it will get worse umtil someone blows.
"Good fences make good neighbors"
means
Having good boundaries in a marriage makes for a good marriage.
What boundaries does your marriage / family exhibit?
If you were magically transformed into the W and Mrs ZB magically transformed in to the H what would the M look like. Would the M look right to you? How would you make changes to right the imbalances?
I know it's personal at home and not at work, but in what ways? It's not a given that a person will be clearheaded and decisive at work and wishy-washy at home. Your reasons are yours alone.
For example, some people are strong at home and indecisive wussies at work because they want their colleagues to like them and they don't want to feel like people are saying behind their backs that they are mean. They figure the people at home have to put up with their cr@p, so they don't bother being civil to them.
Our choir director at school is like this. She cannot keep control of this class of college students. She doesn't want to be "mean." She even is apologetic about asking all of us to look at her while she is conducting for fear we will think she is self-centered. As a musician, you know it is imperative for everyone to look at the conductor! But she is timid about this. OTOH she just got out of a very abusive marriage and finally kicked her alcoholic husband to the curb. See what I mean? She's a tower of strength at home WHERE IT'S PERSONAL and a weakling at school where it's not.
You are able to be firm and decisive at work. Don't you worry about your colleagues thinking you're mean and domineering? That you're drunk on power and love to tell people what to do? Don't you worry that around the water cooler they're saying, "Boy, that ZBube is a real b*st*ard with some kind of Napoleon complex." You say they DON'T say those things about you? They admire and respect your decisiveness? Because you're competent at what you do and command respect? I believe that about you 100 percent!
But at home that decisiveness doesn't work. I mean you've already divorced and remarried the woman. Your C called her a vindictive b*tch... you say this has been pretty much a cold marriage for 30 years... what more can happen? What is the scariest thing about conflict at home?
Ah....<light bulb> is it that YOU don't want to be the mean, vindictive person? You want her to keep that title? If you step up and say how the cow ate the cabbage then, conversely and I guess perversely you'll have sunk to her level? You want to stay on the moral high ground by yourself? You want her to be the bad cop so you can be the good cop?
I'm just playing with myself here... ... brainstorming... but do you see what I'm getting at? To say it's "personal" at home and not at work is too gross (as in large and undefined) an answer... I'm interested in a finer (as in "fine print") answer.
I guess this is "ZBube in the Spotlight Day." Or maybe "Pick On ZBube Day."
What do you have to lose at this point? From my POV, nothing...but you have a great deal to gain...no matter how the dice roll for you. Either you are happier (eventually) on your own...or you end up with a much more fulfilling M than you have now.
I think (Lil you're going to love this) that one thing many of us have in common is that we do have to get to the point of "my give a damn's busted!"....eventually you just reach a point that you can/will say do what you need to do.
My main point in pointing these things out to you though...is you've sat in this same spot for years....and you will continue to unless you reach catalystic point.
Zbube...you are dealing with a classic conflict avoider here...who has broken that pattern. It's not nearly so difficult for me now to tell my H what I need...where I stand...what will happen if he doesn't step up (and mean it). I guarantee you...if you will take those initial steps and do what you need to do, it will become easier for you too. Eventually you won't be afraid to say/do what you need to. The hardest part is taking those first steps...but I know you can.
Good brainstorming, but wrong conclusion. I think you were on the right track, but never quite made it. As I said, the difference at work is that it’s just business – part of my job. The people who report to me expect me to make decisions, settle conflicts, assign work, etc. It’s a hierarchical setup where they report to me and I report to my boss. It’s my job to make some decisions just as it’s my job to pass some of them up or down as the case may be. Sure, if I’m any good at it there’s an element of team building involved, but the fact is that my boss is my boss. He has the final say. Likewise, I’m the boss of the people who report to me.
My M is different, or at least I look at it differently. I don’t want a W who reports to me. I don’t want a hierarchical relationship. I want us to be a team. I don’t want to be the boss – I want an equal partnership. So when conflict arises, I always question why my opinion should matter more than hers. W apparently doesn’t ask the same question of herself though. The inequity is clear when I write it out, but nonetheless, that’s the thinking behind the current dynamic. In the context of the M, I don’t feel that my POV has any more value than does hers, so I’m reluctant to push mine.
GEL, thanks for the encouragement. I really feel like I’m getting close, but my give a damn’s not quite busted yet. It’s getting close though. The last few days have been really tense and miserable at home. W knows that something is wrong, but I haven’t said anything yet. Another truth that I haven’t voiced here is that I’m afraid of myself. I’ve held in so much for so long that I’m afraid that letting it out will be akin to letting the air out of a balloon through a tiny little pinprick. And I’m sure you know how the pinprick affects an inflated balloon.
Just for the record, I did see the new arrivals last night. The official count is now twelve dogs and eleven cats.
I can understand that....I imagine you're probably afraid you will either just completely lose it! Or you'll ramble and not make any sense...am I anywhere near the target here?
Ok...so here's something to try. Use an approach like you would in business (this works for me)...to help keep you on track. Of course this is personal and of course this isn't the office....but try this:
Write yourself a list of bullet points with points you want to make. You don't have to show this to her (but you can if you want), this is just for you. You might even just jot down a phrase or two that are really important for you to get out (for ex: my telling my H "I won't live like this indefinitely!". You might even want to put them in order of importance (highest to lowest) to make sure you get your most important points in....in case you have to take a break, or for some reason can't finish the entire convo at one time.
If you find yourself getting angry, rambling, losing your point...stop, take a breath and refer back to it, it will help get you back on track just as you'd pull a business meeting back on track that starts to wander.
She may ask why that paper is there, or accuse you of scripting this convo...if so, fine...explain what the paper is and why you have it (be honest).
I had no idea until very recently how much of this you'd been holding in, and ZBub...this needs to come out. Don't wait for yourself to blow-up (which we know would eventually happen) blow-ups rarely are productive. I think you'll find that once you've manage to have this convo with your W you are going to feel a lot of stress fall off your shoulders simply because you aren't holding it in any longer. Don't wait til your "give a damn's busted" on this...what's the point in doing that? Try to break your pattern of conflict avoidance now, if nothing else...you will be working on something for yourself by doing that and you will be AMAZED at how that can affect your R and other aspects of your life as well.
((((ZBube)))) You know I'm pulling for you. Feel free to e-mail me if you want to bounce some ideas off of me.
Can you write a letter if you feel like you can't keep it calm during a conversation?
Another thing re: conflict avoidance. Look at it this way. What if your wife was saying to herself "I know I need to stop being a vindictive b*tch who withholds intimacy but I've got 30 years of inertia propelling me along this path."
What would your thoughts be about that line of thinking?
Does that help you in making a change in yourself..to consider another person thinking exactly the same way and to remember how maddening it is? Just throwing some thoughts out for you.
I'm pulling for you so strongly since you are my sort-of brother in law. (MrH's long lost and all that.)
Z-Bube... I have a different take on "popping the balloon." I am not the best communicator...granted, I have learned a lot, but every so often I do " lose it" with H. It sucks that it has to get to that point, and it's not exactly my best moments...but sometimes it actually ends up being productive. And, I can tell you that afterwards I can feel myself becoming relaxed...it's amazing how much tension we can hold in...most definitely not a good thing for our health.
ZBube- thanks for that informative reply. It's interesting that in your desire to be "peers" with your W, you have in effect, made yourself her subordinate. By not asserting yourself, you've made her the boss.
My H used to do this with me. I used to tell him, I don't want to be the CEO of this relationship. He would always defer to me. He had been married to a "my way or the highway" kind of woman for almost 30 years, and couldn't get used to being any other way. He assumed that I knew what was best and that I had thought things through and never challenged me. When he would always leave things up to me (he was an enneagram 9), I would feel so abandoned and alone.
There were times when I made some really bad decisions and he saw me doing it and knew it was wrong, but assumed I had my reasons and knew what I was doing, so he didn't say anything until afterward! He didn't do it to be mean-- I don't believe he had a mean bone in his body. He REALLY felt it was wrong for him to challenge me or assert any authority.
What I wanted was to be able to discuss how to handle certain situations. For me to propose an idea and for him to counter with another idea and for us to work it out. But once I proposed an idea, he'd just back off and wouldn't make any more suggestions. I guess like you he didn't feel his opinion should be worth any more than mine. But in effect he was saying his opinion was worth less than mine.
It's part of that thing where I used to accuse him of hiding safely in the bushes while I was standing in the clearing making myself vulnerable. This was something we never worked out.
The karmic payback is that my bf challenges everything I say! I really have to have my backup data, reasoning process, or citations from the newspaper or internet to back up even casual comments. What a switcheroo-- but you know what? I prefer it. I like that engagement where we can really hash things out.
When you're with Mr. Nice Guy, it can get kind of lonely.
I like the idea of writing out some of my grievances as talking points. While I can’t be absolutely certain, if past performance is any indicator, W won’t talk at all once I start this convo. When that happens, I tend to lose my focus: just what you said about rambling and not making any sense. When I say something and get no response at all, I tend to either try to restate it, expand on it, explain it, or sometimes even back off and try to soften it a bit. Although I have ample evidence that it’s not the case, I still operate as though the reason she isn’t responding is that she didn’t completely understand what I was saying, or she is too stunned to respond. So I usually end up in some long-winded dissertation where I explain every nuance from three or four directions. Bullets might keep me more on track.
HP,
I don’t know whether to try the bulleted convo or go with a letter. I would really prefer to talk, but like I said to GEL, it’s more soliloquy than convo, and I tend to ramble when that happens. The beauty of a letter is that I can order my thoughts, put them down, and edit them as necessary. Assuming she actually reads the letter, it also means that she gets the whole picture without any danger of me wimping out. I can’t chicken out somewhere in the middle. Then again, when I’ve written her letters in the past, she’s never commented on what I said or made any visible reaction. I’ve waited for days before finally asking her if she even read them. I know I told you this before. I asked if she read the letter, and when she said she had, I asked if she had any response. Her answer was, “I didn’t think it called for a response.” Can you hear the sigh and see me shaking my head while I write this?
IHJ,
Blowing up makes me feel better, but if such a thing is even possible, I think the blow-ups have even less effect on W than the letters or lectures. I always include the disclaimer that I‘m well aware that I can’t know what W is thinking, and it applies here as well – but I think she perceives the blow-up as not being serious. I blow up, the pressure is relieved and I feel better. W sees that I feel better and writes it off. After all, ZB is “better” now. He’s over it.
Lil,
Quote: It's interesting that in your desire to be "peers" with your W, you have in effect, made yourself her subordinate. By not asserting yourself, you've made her the boss.
Very interesting and quite true. And thanks for you H and BF anecdotes. They do give me a different perspective.
When having a convo like this...don't assuming she doesn't get it, or that she's not listening. I used to get sooooo frustrated when my H would clam up...becaue you really don't know if the other person is listening or tuning you out. But you know what, I've learned...my H was listening, he just really didn't know what to say back.....so he said NOTHING.
This is exactly why I suggested you write yourself out a bullet point list of things you want to say. If you catch yourself rambling, or trying to over explain....it will get you back on course.
Letters are also a great approach, but I think you already said something pretty important. You've taken that approach before, she's not responded to it. So while normally I would say try that...you BTDT, why do what doesn't work again. Try something you haven't tried.
Remember the definition of insantity....."doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
You already know you need to get past your conflict avoidance too right? Try to look at this as a challenge for yourself as well.
I'm not trying to tell you what to do here...just pointing out that you are considering doing something AGAIN, that hasn't worked in the past As you said...
( Then again, when I’ve written her letters in the past, she’s never commented on what I said or made any visible reaction. I’ve waited for days before finally asking her if she even read them. I know I told you this before. I asked if she read the letter, and when she said she had, I asked if she had any response. Her answer was, “I didn’t think it called for a response.")
... brainstorming... but do you see what I'm getting at? To say it's "personal" at home and not at work is too gross (as in large and undefined) an answer... I'm interested in a finer (as in "fine print") answer. 
Or maybe "Pick On ZBube Day." 
As you said...