Re Chrissy and Why do you want to ML with someone who doesn’t want to ML with you” question
Quote: I have often wondered why my H still wants me when I have been so apparent in my lack of desire for him.
For me it is because I have the desire and compulsion to want someone, in my mind. It builds a little until, one day cool emotions returned to me are better than feeling no emotions/love at all. Maybe some women and a few men can turn off their feelings of wanting someone longer than others. Turning off my feelings, drive me crazy (compulsive type) untill I find an outlet.
Having the attitude "just get over it" (dont want someone's love or sex) only is good for a while. Then I have to experience the real thing, even if it is a bad copy of what it should be.
If being M and having another woman were OK believe me I would not be here trying to fix the M as much as I have been. But I have been exposed to faithfulness talks, readings, and fairness beliefs for a long time so OW is still taboo for now.
Quote: The truth is that ever since I saw the “Why do you want to ML with someone who doesn’t want to ML with you” question raised on this board, I’ve been questioning myself and this R.
I personally don't see this as a productive question. I don't think it encompasses enough, is therefore limited in scope and leaves the answers obviously in a negative area.
You want to make love to someone with whom you are in an ongoing relationship. There are a myriad of reasons why a spouse doesn't want to have sex with you.
Sexual abuse. Rape. Emotional abuse. Inexperience. Self-centeredness. Resentment. Depression. Bitterness. Astronomically poor relational skills. Bad marital relationship. Relational power struggles. Unforgiveness. Poor lovemaking skills from one or both parties. Poor or non-existant good relationships nearby to pattern after. Poor body image. Excessive weight. Emotionally ill or retarded. Physically ill. Mentally ill. Combative & defensive. (spoiling for a fight).
There are some right off the top of my head.
Many (although certainly not all) have little to do with you (rhetorical you). Some of you aren't dealing with sexual drive inequalities alone. You're dealing with ingrained, been this way for a long time, poor relational skills. For many of you divorce is against your religion. Many of you don't want to take the chance that you'll end up becoming an alternate weekends parent. To continue to couch your marriage in sexually-starved parameters is to ignore the very relational dynamics that result in this painful situation.
Bube, regarding the animals, I would suggest you start removing whatever facilitation you are currently providing. Kennels, food, vets, medicines, animal pickups, etc.
I understand the reasons that you don't, because I'm guessing that while you may be committed to the marriage, there's that niggle in the back of your mind, that if you actually attempt to assert your needs, wants and expectations in this marriage without backing down and acquiesing, that your wife will slap *you* with a divorce.
I wouldn't be able to tolerate a relationship that changes (and you do realize she is the one who keeps getting to determine what goes on) while leaving me totally in the dark, with no input and no redress. What you're dealing with is frankly a form of abuse. There is no connection between what you do and what you get. Your wife is making choices and living in a way that makes you pretty much a nobody in your own home.
It's your life too, Bube.
You know you've got to get past the guilt of your affair. By allowing her to pursue whatever she wants while outright ignoring your requests with little or no regard for *you* to be considered in this marriage - you do her no service.
While divorce may not be an option for you religious wise, there are no religious injunctions I know about in regards to separations. I think you were right to separate years ago, you just muddied it up by dragging a third person into the mix, and it would have been better to have occurred before your daughter was born.
To me, the overarching question is, "Do I want to be in a marriage to someone who doesn't appear to want to be married to me?"
You scored many more hits. I am using her self-esteem as an excuse. And by not saying anything, I [am avoiding the situation. Maybe recognizing that will help be break out of the pattern. But then again, you scored a hit on the fear too. I honestly don’t know what I’m afraid of, but I certainly recognize that I am afraid.
MrsNOP,
You, too, are a very insightful lady. I have lots of responses to what you’ve said here, but I’m thinking that it may be better for me to sleep on it before responding. Some of the things you’ve said deserve some time to sink in and think about rather than just responding with the first gut reaction. I’ll get back to you in the morning.
Here's my take on your lines in the sand that your W continues to cross. If she has any conscience, she feels bad everytime you call attention to the fact that she puts her love of animals before her love of you. She must know, deep down, that you are in the right. I think of my own struggle with my wife in trying to get her to sleep with me and without the kids. I drew hundreds of lines on the sand over several years before she finally relented. I think you may wish to take on the demeanor of a prophet. You have the right message. At some point, she will see the light. You don't know when that day will come, but you don't want to miss the day when it does come. She may change just to shut you up! Prophets (usually) lead no armies, but change men and nations by the force of their will.
I said, “NONE” and made it very clear that I did not want to get any more dogs. So she went back that afternoon and bought one. A total lack of respect
No respect, no attraction. I cant put it any plainer.
it also shows how much she trusts you-- that you will not walk away or hurt her when she defies you
Lil I dont call this trust, I call it indifference and disrespect.
I heard our C tell W that she was, “a cruel, vicious, vindictive bitch”. W agreed with that assessment.
my x also has a tendancy towards--think badly of me and I will be bad. agreeing with this is not taking responsiblity. She's taking you sooooo for granted, and yes, I believe she believes you won't leave. And if she does, and you won't, you've removed a lot of your bargaining power (I think). GEL, he has shown no power, she cant respect him. There is so much work here to do ...
She’s way too fat, admits to being way too fat, complains about being so fat, and constantly tells me how much she hates being so fat, but she won’t do anything about it. She hates her teeth, she hates her hair, … She pretty much dislikes everything about her body both individually and as a whole. ZB she doesnt love herself, there is no way she can let you love her. The animals dont care what she looks like, they need her.
mrs. nop.
Wow. Exactly. You know you've got to get past the guilt of your affair. By allowing her to pursue whatever she wants while outright ignoring your requests with little or no regard for *you* to be considered in this marriage - you do her no service I have been ruminating on this for a couple of weeks after reading ZB's PA thread, and trying to figure out a way to express this to him, after someone brought up the fact that he is carrying his guilt around like a bag of stones. The man is the head of the household, and his mental state is what drives it and keeps the relationship together. Holding on to your guilt is hurting your R, using it or allowing it to be a way for her to hold it over you is.....bad for your R.It is not being the man and doing what is best for you and the R. I think it is a place for you to start.
I think responsibility falls on the man.... R problems are our fault. I dont believe in D personnaly, but this is so out of hand.. I would go to the point of saying you need to set a bunch of boundaries... and put her out, not leave if they are not followed. Untill you have regained some of your power, you have no control in this sitch that I can see.
Why do you want to ML with someone who doesn’t want to ML with you” I agree again Mrs. NOP. circular, defeatist, negative frame thinking. Not a decision. Not a solution. Not a way for a head of a house to behave.
OK, I’ve rolled this around for a while and here’s what I’ve come up with.
Quote: Many (although certainly not all) have little to do with you (rhetorical you). Some of you aren't dealing with sexual drive inequalities alone. You're dealing with ingrained, been this way for a long time, poor relational skills. For many of you divorce is against your religion. Many of you don't want to take the chance that you'll end up becoming an alternate weekends parent. To continue to couch your marriage in sexually-starved parameters is to ignore the very relational dynamics that result in this painful situation.
Spot on. I’ve been discussing my M exclusively in SSM terms. In fact, I believe that there are much bigger problems. Based upon a lot of things that would take pages and pages to adequately go into, I do believe that W has a serious sexual aversion completely separate and apart from me and our R. But I also believe that addressing the other problems could potentially impact her sex issues.
Quote: Bube, regarding the animals, I would suggest you start removing whatever facilitation you are currently providing. Kennels, food, vets, medicines, animal pickups, etc.
I don’t know that I could do that. Every animal we have now is a rescue. I have no problem with saying, “no more”, but once they’re here, I don’t know that I have it in me to toss them out. That may not help my case, but it is honest.
Quote: I wouldn't be able to tolerate a relationship that changes (and you do realize she is the one who keeps getting to determine what goes on) while leaving me totally in the dark, with no input and no redress. What you're dealing with is frankly a form of abuse. There is no connection between what you do and what you get. Your wife is making choices and living in a way that makes you pretty much a nobody in your own home.
It's your life too, Bube.
I agree with this completely, but I’m just barely beginning to get a handle on my being able to change it. I know that I need to set a boundary and take a stand, but I just don’t know where or how. Like I said before, I have thirty years of inertia propelling me down this path. Diverting from the established course is not only difficult, it’s so foreign to everything that’s happened in that thirty years that the change is downright scary.
Quote: You know you've got to get past the guilt of your affair. By allowing her to pursue whatever she wants while outright ignoring your requests with little or no regard for *you* to be considered in this marriage - you do her no service.
I truly believe that I am over the guilt of the affair. W hasn’t mentioned it in years and I really don’t even think about it any more except when I read stories like LFL’s.
Quote: While divorce may not be an option for you religious wise, there are no religious injunctions I know about in regards to separations. I think you were right to separate years ago, you just muddied it up by dragging a third person into the mix, and it would have been better to have occurred before your daughter was born.
Agreed. It’s just that in spite of everything, I do love W very much and I don’t want to leave.
Quote: To me, the overarching question is, "Do I want to be in a marriage to someone who doesn't appear to want to be married to me?"
Yes indeed. That is the question isn’t it? Apparently my answer is yes – which brings up the next logical question: why? I can’t answer that one right now.
As for asking her. If she would answer at all, she would say that she was happy and that everything was fine. I’ve tried it. I haven’t followed up with my list of what I think is wrong, and I know that I need to, but I have asked her if she’s happy with our M and what she would like to see change. It was a great convo: I found out that I was perfect and the M was perfect too.
MrsNOP, I have to disagree on the Why do you want to ML...question.
I believe it is a valid and productive question. At some point in the progression of the HD partner, they sink lower and lower in an attempt to right the sexual wrongs of the marriage. The strange thing is...they do not even realize they're doing this. One day you wake up and think, Have I *really* been doing this? Why?
Clearly, people who consistently pursue sex with a person who does not reciprocate do not respect themselves. In that regard, it is wise to ask yourself the above question and get to work establishing more balance in the M and, in the process, respecting yourself once again.
It is a terrible dynamic: The LD partner doesn't respect the HD partner and the HD partner doesn't respect the HD partner. What a crappy setup! Anything that obliterates that way of thinking is a good thing, in my book.
I don't believe that question is a good one to endlessly ponder over--that aint gonna getcha anywhere--but to throw it out on the table and let it worm its way into your brain and help restore respect--yes that is putting it to good use.
Quote: I believe it is a valid and productive question. At some point in the progression of the HD partner, they sink lower and lower in an attempt to right the sexual wrongs of the marriage. The strange thing is...they do not even realize they're doing this. One day you wake up and think, Have I *really* been doing this? Why?
Yes, HP, that's how I've been looking at it. It’s like I told you several months ago about when we were ML and right in the middle of it, I started asking myself why I was doing it. It was clear that W wasn’t into it and would really rather not be doing it. So I had to ask myself why I was even bothering. We weren’t doing anything together, much less ML. I was using her body to MB. That’s when the question became meaningful to me. Why was I so intent on being sexual with someone who has shown me consistently for nearly thirty years that she doesn’t want to be sexual with me? What MrsNOP said is valid. There are plenty of potential reasons why she may not want to be sexual. But that does not invalidate the question of why I want to ML with someone who clearly doesn’t want that herself.
ZB, people keep mentioning your affair and how it's time to let go of the guilt from that... but didn't you also actually divorce Mrs ZB and then re-marry? Or did I get that wrong? To me this is the big atomic bomb crater in the middle of the room.
That's a HUGE big deal... bigger even, than the affair. To dissolve the marriage--yikes! I mean, they go hand in hand, but if the A was burning the house down, the D was burning down the neighborhood, knocking down the telephone poles, and poisoning the wells. And it's not like you got back together because of both of you coming to your senses and forgiving, etc.--you came back out of guilt. How could anything grow in that rocky soil?
IMHO you played the big card back then, and if you make noises like you might leave again, she can fold her arms across her chest, look you in the eye, and say BTDT. To me the D sealed your fate even more than the A.
I did read an interesting quote yesterday about guilt... it was something like that by continuing to hold onto guilt, we sometimes feel that we are continuing to atone. But of course, that isn't true.
If I've mixed up your story with someone else's and you didn't get divorced and remarried, then I will just smear all of this egg all over my face and let all of y'all's dogs happily lick it off.
I think I remember Z_Bube saying he remarried her as well. I don't recall if it was guilt he said made them come together again but I find that hard to believe. If the M was completely severed and they remarried, there must have been some feelings of love/hope/etc to make that happen.
You know I can somewhat relate to your situation Z_Bube. I am saddened that you are still so unhappy with the M, the second time around.
I just posted on my own thread that I cannot imagine going back to a crappy M now that H and I are reconciling. I would leave before living like that again. I know there is no easy answer but I agree that holding on to any guilt is not productive.
No regrets. That is what life is, a learning experience. Your W has made mistakes just as much as you have, A or no A. She has her own destructuve issues that have little to do with you. Own yours and let her own hers.
