Read your post last night right as I was going to bed. It was sad to read that you could do something so romantic so not just lets have sex and she could not even give enough to take a soak and have a drink with you.
My H would never do anything so sweet on his own.
After reading your post this morning my first thought was wonder how this lady would react if you just suddenly started living your life around her. Meaning just GAL You doing for you.
I can see hairy picking up the phone calling wife and saying hey I have got some plans for this evening so you will have to figure out dinner for you and DD. And sat when wife says Hairy here is your honey do list you say well you may have to do some of it yourself because Joe and I are going golfing/fishing/camping.
Hairy to me it seems this woman has you by the balls. You are her housekeeper, cook, errand boy, and childs primary care giver and financial partner. You steam clean carpets while she downloads music. Gosh she has a tough life. You really need to break this cycle Hairy. You need to stop letting her take such complete and utter advantage of you. If you need to let go of your idea what a wife is. Maybe she needs to let go of the idea that a husband is a servant. Just my thoughts and hopes that you have a great day.
Geesh, it's such a shame she can't just let go and be happy with you. Her comment about not letting her know prior about wanting to take a bath with her make me think of something though....hope this doesn't take the joy out of it for you too.
As our C suggested to my H...sometimes he has to conciously put things aside in order to be "intimate" with me. Perhaps, just perhaps, your W is like this as well. Maybe she really does need a bit of a "heads-up" in order to mentally prepare to be intimate with you. It's a frustrating thing true enough, but some people need this heads-up to de-clutter their brain enough to enjoy themselves. Don't know that your W is truly this way, just a thought.
Perhaps you could just ask her if she is someone who really does need a bit of a heads-up. I know that can just blow spontenaiety all to he**, but would you rather have a nice evening soaking in the tub with her that was pre-planned, and something you could look forward to....or another let down like last night?
As for her comment about "acting like you're rich"...going out and celebrating a raise, once, is not acting like you're rich, that's why it's a celebration....DUH! I feel like her comment was just a guilt trip about money, it was selfish and insensitive. On that, I believe I would have said something.
That is so sad. I am so sorry. I'm beginning to think you need to GAL for yourself not for the M. You deserve to be happy too. I'm sorry, I just don't think that soaking in a tub with your H is a chore. If cleaning up dog poo wins the day that is her problem. Not yours.
It makes me nuts that she blew off the hot tub, because you didn't make an appointment ahead of time.
I was kind of curious about your reaction to post suggesting a dialogue where you refuse to engage in convos where she corrects your behavior. On my computer, it's at the top of this page... Maybe you missed it due to pagination issues...
first .. I think you come across as a cool, quick witted, funny guy. You appear to be a nice guy.
You didnt deserve how she treated you. that was a sweet move you made. The girls around here are flipping out.
I would like to point something out though.
We did have a talk this morning. The usual pattern ...I left without saying "I love you." She called, all hurt. I told her I was too busy. She acted even more hurt, and said she knew I was upset with her, why didn't I want to talk with her .....I told her that I had certainly gotten to the point where I had given up any expectations of what SHE would give to me. She hung up. She called back. Knowing that we weren't going to get anywhere unless I said I was sorry for hurting her, I apologized for the hurtful way
Boom. right there is where you lost your power again. she tested you and you caved. I know --it shouldnt have to be this hard... and if you want to go elsewhere that is your perog. But if you want things to change... you cant cave. Let her hang up 500 times. better yet if she hangs up dont answer again for the rest of the day.
She knows when she is acting Sh!tty. or she wouldnt call back and apologize. do not let her transfer. You are apologizing because her feelings are hurt when she acted like a B the night before? Dude you let her act this way.
This is your crucible. Even the ladies are saying it.
Quit being a NICE guy. at least test it out, let it ride so to speak.
You cant care if she is mad, or if things progress. It is not your job to be 'nice' to fix it. It is hers.
Lillie: I did read your dialogue. I have tried that before (I call it Corri's "not getting into her sh!t" method) and it works sometimes. Sometimes it just delays the inevitable hashing out of every little detail. Usually, it just makes her mad and she says I'm being passive aggressive.
Blackfoot: I hear ya. I am that nice guy and I am stuck in my W's version of poke the bunny. I can act like the mean guy or the apathetic guy, but eventually I revert to nice guy. I'm not back to doormat guy, but I see the need to dial down from nice guy. I'm working on it.
Last night we had a long talk. I decided to be as open and honest as I could possibly be with her. I told her my thought progression, how I had been working so hard all weekend, how I wanted to celebrate my raise, how I felt when she minimized it, how I felt when I decided to do the bath thing, how I felt when she went downstairs, etc.
I also told her that I thought she had come to a decision at some time that she did not ever want to ML with me. I said she had decided not to tell me this because she feared my reaction. She said that I was wrong, but that she had decided (and has told me in the past) that she didn't want to ML with me until she felt safe with me. I told her that these words about "safety" were code words. I said that she was putting this condition on ML and that she would only agree to ML with me if I was so perfect that she finally "felt safe" with me. I told her I would never be that perfect. "In fact," I said, "I guarantee you that I will never be that perfect. It's an impossibility."
She said that she was happy with me, and that, although feeling safe was a pre-requisite for ML with me, it was not a prerequisite for her loving me, being happy, and staying in the relationship. She said that she wished I would just accept her the way she was, and be happy. Then, she said, maybe we would all relax enough to ML.
I told her that I thought most of our problems came down to this: her father did not accept her as she was. His love was conditional. She knew that I wanted to ML, so she was using her rejection of my sexual initiations as tests...like a laboratory recreation of this dynamic between her and her Dad. She wanted me to accept her and love her unconditionally, even if she didn't do what I wanted her to do.
(If you remember, after her parents got divorced, she ended up with her father and his new wife for about 5 years. At 14, she told him that she wanted to go live with her mother. He never forgave her for that. And, to this day, still hasn't. Really. It was one of the first things he said to me when I met him. I wish they both could get over it.)
So I told her this...and she stopped. But only for a moment. Then she said that maybe I was starved for affection as a child and that was why I wanted it so badly now.
I said, "oh." (Thanks, lillie and corri). I said I'd have to think about that.
Where are we? I don't know. Just another mile or so along the journey, I guess. And a few days older.
I've decided to basically tell her everything that I am thinking, from now on. Total transparency. It will either bring us closer together, or it won't. One of the reasons I'm going to do this is because she criticized me for lying to her yesterday morning. Mondays are supposed to be the mornings when I stick around while she gets ready for work, we talk, etc. I woke up yesterday and just didn't want to be around her. I showered, dressed and said goodbye. As I was leaving, she said, "hey, it's Monday." Instead of telling her, "I know, but I really don't want to be around you right now," I lied and said, "Oh, I have some stuff I need to do at work." Personally, I call that a little white lie. She doesn't see it that way of course. Henceforth, when I don't want to be around her, or if I'm upset with her, or if I think she's a soul-less asexual castrator, I'll just take a deep breath, and tell her what I'm thinking. No more smoothing the edges for her comfort. And when she complains about my attitude, I'll just tell her that I refuse to lie to her.
Your W is goooooooooooood. Gotta give her credit. She comes back with some zingers and really knows how to deflect. Love this one: She said that she was happy with me, and that, although feeling safe was a pre-requisite for ML with me, it was not a prerequisite for her loving me, being happy, and staying in the relationship. She said that she wished I would just accept her the way she was, and be happy. Then, she said, maybe we would all relax enough to ML.
Total BS Hairdog and you shouldn't fall for it. Interesting story about her father though. She may be seeking unconditional love but you are not a DOG. You are a MAN who deserves to have his needs met just as much as she does. Your needs are at odds with each other obviously so at this point you are doing THE MEXICAN STANDOFF (told you guys I loved that phrase). Who is going to cave first? From what I know about her through you, she will NOT be changing anytime soon. What is all this about "safety"? Why does she not feel safe with you? Seems like that would be a basic need in any M, no? And yet, she is happy, content, likes things the way they are. Huh? I guess I understand her point of view because right now she is getting her way. You are starting to really rock the boat and disrupt her "happy to live in mediocrity" land. Too bad. Good for you for telling her the honest, brutal truth from now on. I think that is absolutely necessary to have true intimacy with your S. Hope you stick with it. STAY STRONG!
I think you're getting it here. If you tell her exactly how you're feeling in the moment, which comes with that total transparency your are talking about....you will basically be doing many of the things that some of us have been doing that's been working.
I guess that's what I started to call "my give a damn's busted". It's not that I didn't care what my H would think or say in reaction to what I would say....it's that I finally decided you know what! This is how I feel about this situation, I've told you how I feel....it's up to you to deal with it or not, but this is where I stand.
I think if you start doing this you're going to see some changes.
Also I like the fact that you called her out on her "safe" comment. Her feeling safe makes me think of some of us on here who have an ideal (yes, I'm one of them) of what our W/H should do to make us feel desired. Sometimes we get this image of EXACTLY what it should look like to us, and it's unattainable for our S. I think that's what she's done with "safe", especially if she doesn't let you know what it is that you can do to make her feel that way.
Hairy, Have you ever asked her why it's YOUR job to make HER feel "safe"?
She has anxiety where sex is concerned. You are sympathetic and willing to help her through this. As far as I'm concerned, that's where it has to end. You cannot contort yourself into a pretzel in the hopes that she will finally, at last, feel safe.
She doesn't even know wtf her own definition of safe is.
I would tell her that unless she can define it, in measurable terms, that you are unwilling for it to be your yardstick any longer. "I'll know it when I see it" has GOT TO GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
P.S. Good for you for how you handled the convo. You rock, man!
Oh, one more thing. Before we started talking, she had filled out this sheet about finances and how we should divvy it up. It was obvious to me that she was trying to prove that she was providing more $$ to the family, at least in proportion to the amount of kids she was "responsible" for. She said I should be paying 2/3 of this or that, and all of the van payment, etc. And she said, to the extent that you don't make enough to cover all of your responsibilities, you can borrow the money from me at prime rate.
I looked at the list, and very calmly said, "okay. First I want to sell the van. I'll get by with the truck (1972 Chevy pickup). Then, let's sell the house. It's too big. I'll have to start working nights and weekends, which will, of course, increase our childcare costs."
Anyway, we got past that, because she knows that she's either in or out. I've survived on much less money than she ever has, and, while I enjoy our home, it's just "stuff."
What I wanted to tell y'all is that, in the context of her inability to ML, and my inability to act perfect enough for her to feel "safe," I said, "It's becoming obvious to me that things will never change. Instead of getting all upset about it, I need to listen and learn from what you and the MC have been telling me all along: that I should be responsible for my own happiness. The problem is, that I can't seem to do that within my moral framework. I want to ML. I want sensual pleasure. I married you for many reasons, but a big one was that I love you and want to only share that sensual pleasure with one woman, my wife. Because that appears to not be possible, I think I'll just have to take responsibility for my own happiness by changing my moral framework and going outside of our marriage."
"If you do that," she fired, "you'll have to use your own money. You'll probably have to get another job. If it's that important to you, fine, but you'll be giving up your time with the family so that you can afford your trysts."
Yes, she really said that. She put it totally in a financial context. I told her that there was nothing going on now, and nothing in the works, but that if an opportunity came up, it will be increasingly difficult to hold up my moral shield and just say "no." And then the conversation moved away from that, and on to other things.
In the interest of my "give a damn is broken" and the spirit of my new transparency, I need to ask her if she wants me to let her know if and when a PA is imminent. I don't want to lie, whether it's about not wanting to talk to her, about giving the dogs their pills, or having an affair.
