FYI...I read and enjoy romance novels, was the person who told you that male/female? Because while some of them may have very erotic scenes in them...I'd hardly call them porn...but that's just me.
However, with that said....I do know that some women who read these romance novels exclusively often do seem to hold the men in those stories as an "ideal" which is completely unrealistic, no one in real-life is going to live up to one of these men of "perfection". I do read those novels, for pure enjoyment, and often find myself laughing at the "hero" because he is just so completely not someone you would meet in a real-world situation....for that matter neither is the woman in the story.
But I'll let you in on a little secret CeMar, when things aren't going right in my life it's much easier to escape into that fantasy world of a book and dream about this man of perfection than face the situation you may find yourself in in real-life. Now I'm not saying that's a good thing to do...all I'm saying is I bet your W isn't all that happy with your situation either.
Just a little insight on Cemar. He loves to get things started with a wild comment, then sit back and enjoy the show! We're not 'cluttering up' his thread, we're entertaining him! The fact that he actually posted back (a number of times at this point) really shocks me! Good for you, Cemar!
I too think the romance novels are interesting. I'm wondering if these novels get her 'juices' flowing? Depending on the level of 'smut' she could be using these books as the starter, then masterbating to take care of the feelings?
I mention this because as the LD (lower drive) I find light erotica to be a good 'starter' when I'm not in the mood but would like to be!
Quote: I really believe that she sees sexuality as something that YOUNG people have, not middle aged people.
I think this is the root of the problem. This is the basis for the "bait and switch" CeMar talks about. When they got married, they were young, and she considered sexual behavior appropriate. Now they're older (I forget how old) and she considers it inappropriate-- although she is still willing to ML when he wants to, she considers it inappropriate for her to have sexual feelings.
I personally don't think it's anything CeMar is doing or not doing. Just like with me, karen, IHJ, etc., if someone isn't willing to be open to his or her sexuality, I don't think there's much an outsider can do-- even if the outsider is the partner. The LD person can "go along" with what you want, but that self-generated interior desire has to be discovered on his/her own, inside him/herself. Like the way cinemanymph discovered it inside her-- it wasn't anything her H did that changed her. She changed herself. Until Mrs. CeMar is willing to go inside and relocate her sexuality, it's going to stay missing.
Regarding sexuality in the young and old-- I can admire a perfect body on a younger guy, but for real sexiness, it's got to be an older man. And I felt that way when I was younger, too. CeMar, how does your wife regard someone like Sean Connery? To me he is much sexier now than he was in his James Bond days... and someone like Brad Pitt can't even begin to match his appeal.
And what about the old guys who truly aren't physically attractive but radiate sex appeal, like Gene Hackman, Clint Eastwood, Robert DeNiro, Morgan Freeman, Harrison Ford, Samuel L. Jackson, Patrick Stewart... Even Jason Alexander, Bill Murray, and Chow Yun Fat (who played with Jodie Foster in "Anna and the King") have that special "something."
CeMar, if your W likes romance, has she seen The Bridges of Madison County-- one of the most romantic movies ever made (and a gigantic improvement over the book). There was Clint Eastwood looking every bit his age and very sexy.
I do not know if I wonder condsider romance novels porn. But I do think they may help distort a persons vision of what love is. And leave some wanting the type of passion they read about.
Most of the books I have read have never die go to the end of the earth would lay down my life for you situations that arise in them. Woman in distress and heros coming to rescue them. And the rescue aspect usually happens over and over again in these books. The hero's in these book usually reek masculinity and self confidence out the azz.
I hope your wife is not comparing you and your R to these fable type standards.
Lou made comment once regaurding how woman with memories in a relationship that involve horses. Tend to hang on to that memory.They project them as being there knight in shinning armour. Myself I can see some truth to this. I wonder if you wife is waitting for her knight in shinning armour that she reads so much about.
Some people allow them self to escape to far into fantasy.
Building a fantasy life in there mind. It becomes a part of there reality. Not saying your wife does this I do not know her. But you do.
Just a thought
I do have a question though. Does your wife have a problem with aging? and how does she relate to people older then herself?
I think it was I that made the “porn for women” comment. Actually, it was a quote I lifted from our female C. She was alluding to some of the differences in the genders. She was talking about men being much more visually oriented and saying that that orientation is why the vast majority of what we commonly refer to as “porn” is directed toward men. We all know that it’s a generalization, but men are more turned on by the physical part of the act.
She then explored the flip side: what women want (sorry, Mel). She said that women’s sexuality is tuned more toward romance and feelings and less toward the visual and physical. I believe that what she said was that “in a sense” romance novels were porn for women. Where traditional porn is designed to push men’s buttons, romance novels are designed to push women’s buttons.
All things considered, I have to concur. It is true that men want and need the emotional side in order to have a really fulfilling SL – this board offers plenty of proof of that. It’s also true that emotion and romance alone aren’t enough for women. But generally speaking, men are more visceral and women more emotional. Romance novels may not be porn as we commonly define it, but nonetheless, it is designed to play to what women find sexually alluring, just as traditional porn is designed to play to what men find sexually exciting.
I also believe that romance novels have the potential to cause just as much damage as does traditional porn. Women complain that porn is demeaning to women. That it dehumanizes them and presents as normal, a physical and sexual standard that “real” women simply can’t live up to. The same can be said for romance novels. The protagonist is almost invariably tall, handsome, muscular, rich, and fabulously successful at virtually everything he tries to do. He’s frequently a rogue (the bad boy thing?) and always exudes the confidence that’s been talked about so much on this board. And, of course, he’s desperately in love with the heroine and is constantly having to struggle to maintain control over both his thoughts and actions. IOW, this guy is the perfect embodiment of what women want. He creates a standard which very few of us have any chance of meeting.
The trick here is in not letting what you use for entertainment skew your perception of reality. You can view porn and realize that it’s not an accurate depiction of reality. All women aren’t like that and you’re not being cheated if your W isn’t Jenna Jameson. Likewise, you can read romance novels and still not feel cheated because your H isn’t some devilishly handsome, successful rogue who also just happens to be a duke or an earl of something or other. But like so many other things, if you already have problems in that area, and if you use them as a crutch or an escape into fantasy, you could create or exacerbate existing problems.
Now I have to give the standard disclaimer. I, personally, have some questions about romance novels in my own M. As you all know, my W has an aversion to sex that predates me. I’ve told you about the “gross” couple. I’ve told you about her comments about oral. I’ve told you about her reactions to any depiction of sex in visual media. Yet she’s an absolutely voracious reader of romance novels, which even when they’re not explicit, positively drip with desire and passion. So while I’m not bothered by the books themselves, they do point to something troubling in my own R. I might not be totally objective.
Interesting...back when I was LD I read these things CONSTANTLY. Now, I'm HD and might read 2 or 3 per year.
Just a thought here....while it is easy as a reader of a romance novel to escape into it to enjoy what you are experiencing...it's also a detachment. She isn't experiencing that excitment with you, she's not putting her feelings and emotions out there with you...she's not making herself vulnerable to you.....she's doing it where it's safe, in a book. And yes, that is a problem.
I admit, I'm a reader of these types of novels (although I read many other things too), these are my main type of "enjoyment" when reading. BUT...I've also been known to read some of it out loud to my H and just laugh my butt off because it is so obscenely unrealistic, which is EXACTLY why it fits into the "fiction" genre. But, I do think sometimes some women forget they are reading fiction and not real life stories. If I were to sit down and write a real-life romance novel, it wouldn't sell a single copy. It would be boring to read....at least for most people.
That's why I'm making notes on my experiences as to what I'm currently going through, the mistakes I've made in the past in my R's and the successes. One of my best friends (who is studying to be a sex therapist) and I have deiced to join forces and write (yes, one of the days you'll see this on your local bookstore shelf) "The Road to a Healthy Marriage...Roadkill not included!" I've already designed the book cover!
It's going to be written with a HUGE sense of humor, lots of comic illustrations (No, this won't be the Kama Sutra for Dummies, that's the sequel) and a serious undertone.
I really think that blackfoot's (and Nopkins') suggestions about "confidence" are very important to you and me; if not to improve the quality of our marriages, then to improve the quality of ourselves.
actually removing insecurity is more important to the quality of a marriage then having confidance. That goes for both spouses. when something happens that touch our insecurity we react with negative expressions (defensiveness, anger, withdrawal) because we fear that place and since we know our spouse best we touch their insecurity in retailiation, back and forth.
Since women'generally' are more emotional, when a guy is insecure, she picks that up from his body language and it turns her off
If you start expressing yourself verbally and physically with confidance, you can turn her back on. If you arent congruent, are faking, verbally confidant but not physically, because we vibe our emotions out there thru body language, she will read it in an instant.
If its a recent change you have made, she isnt going to just believe what you tell her. she is going to test, and if they are positive she will come out a little more each time.
Ive been saying she but the last part goes both ways of course.
Sounds weird I know, but confidance comes from doing things that take courage, so a person can be secure in them self, but still not have confidance.
CeMar if I were you and she really said whenever you want, I would go take that book from her, toss it across the room, throw her over my shoulder and carry her to the bedroom, and I would keep doing that on a regular basis till she connected me with those good feelings, instead of allowing her to continue associating those feeling to those books.
Or take her to a nice hotel restauarnt, book a room, carry her thru the doorway, throw her on the bed, and attack her in every position you can think of.
Thats just me. I know, you want her to attack you. I remember.
You have to act attractive, for her to be attracted.
LFL in your post where you posted about what you like physically, and how your husband is not that you stated exactly what I meant when I said " not the hottest, but hot enough." You took the long female version to explain yourself and spare his feelings. I took the short to the point guy version, meant what I said,-- but was subject to female filtering.
My wife does not necessarily have problems with aging, but she does not like changing. Over the years, she has said many times that she is changing, and usually not for the better. She has gained weight, has a thyroid condition, sagging, a tummy, and big changes to her desire(hormones). She tells me it is not fair that women change so much and men don't. I have not really changed much since we got married, and I think this bothers her. I have the same sex drive as 20 years ago, and obviously she does not.
Part of the problem I have as well with her is that many of her girlfriends are also like her, they too have little interest in sex. So she feels NORMAL among her peers. There is such a disparity among women when it comes to sex drives. There are obviously many HD women on these boards that have high sex drives IN SPITE of there husbands. How the heck do they keep it going?
I feel you need reminding that there really are different ligitimate changes that happen in womans body that can absolutely affect her SD, and it is NOT a reflection on your or her feelings for you. So it's not always that a woman does/doesn't keep things going in SPITE of her H. Sometimes it's just simply our bodies and whether or not they are cooperating with what we want too.
Sometimes I do think men forget that sometimes we women have a hormonal Russian Roulette playing havoc with our bodies...which truly does affect emotions, sensitivity to physical touch, sex drive etc.....on a monthly basis, and that's not even mentioning the the Ping-Pong match that happens to us during Menopause.
CeMar, I hate to be base here (ok no I don't)...but you've mentioned a few times your W has stated "it's not fair that women change so much and men don't." This could be exactly what she's talking about...but you are viewing change differently than she is.
Ok, let's say no, you haven't changed...I can buy that. But the odds are simply not with your W that everything within her, emotions, sex drive etc will stay the same....not when a woman's body is in a constant state of flux.
I understand that she has a lot of physical problems. The question is how to FIX these problems and restore some form of the women I fell in love with. It is virtually impossible to stay in love with a LD. Marriage just flat out does not work when only one can contribute desire. I feel just like honeypot on this one, she has just said it better then I can.
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