Lots of good stuff on the board this weekend, despite what appeared to me to be a slightly negative vibe, -- must be in the air, my weekend was sheetay also. Hopefully we can encourage each other this week, stay focused and working on things that work, and not on what we dont have.
Cobra I am ready to open a discussion with you about my actions and beliefs, where they stem from and how they are not just point in time actions with me wanting to manipulate and control.
Sound good?
I have lots of comments to make on Globule thread, that I am dragging here for now, since his is locked and because they are more along the lines of greater understanding and discussion that you were talking about for myself and hopefully others. So lets shake things up and see what floats up from the everyone. Guess Ill start with a reply to one of Cobra’s post.
Oops first a quote from LFL
While I could express myself very openly with OM, I STILL am not able to do that with H. His anxiety makes me uncomfortable to the point of not wanting to TRULY share myself with him.
This remark plays in exactly to my belief that the mans mental state is what sets the R dynamic. LFL has the desire and demonstrated ability with a man who is not anxious. She wants to, she wants it to be her H. She knows her H is anxious from his body language and words. I think it was in the LL book that the author stated that women are like a mirror to the man in the R. This is agreed with in Genesis and also borne out by evolutionary biology.
Any problems with this concept?
Cobra,
She still blames me for everything, and since I sometimes feel I can’t win no matter what I do, I go ahead and act out
This is a reaction, based on and driven by your negative feelings. As you have noticed it is working better then trying to reason and rationalize with her, but is not the best solution. A woman wants to know your feelings(needs to know the truth so she can trust and feel connected to you) but also wants you to be strong and in control of your feelings so that she isnt overly hurt, and damaged by them. Acting out puts her in her place a little but maybe stopping her or not allowing her to act out with nuetral comments like "knock it off" "Thats enough!" "Yamero!" (do you speak Japanese?) etc. Try it out, if it works appreciate that she respects your strength and authority, and that you can do it without being emotionally reactive or likewise dysfunctional or abusive.
I find she is only empathic to certain people
being giving, and having the ability and skill to take care of others is much different then being empathetic, my x display something very similar to this. Ran across something in my readings recently to this effect that I can't find right now. Anywho it comes from a desire to be needed, and or liked by others. Sound familiar?
The intellectual understanding does not seem to be enough to move her off center It doesnt and never will. Wanting it to, hoping it will, expecting it of her, will cause you to endlessly spin your wheels. You obviously do make an effort to behave this way, but a mans brain is much different then a womans.
Ladies I DID NOT SAY BETTER. I said different. I do not have gender superior beliefs. Knock it off. You are not lesser or better, we are each halves of a whole, that need to fill our respective roles.
You might find she will not follow through and that her withdrawn emotional state is her way on controlling you, by playing on your worst fears. Once you know this dynamic, you can be freed of that fear and become more empowered to stand your ground and take whatever action needed to move the marriage toward a healthy state.
This is a very powerful and astute statement that is the backbone of my personal endeavors, not narcissim and its attendant endeavors like manipulation and control. I want to go on and on about this. Ill try not to.
Fear and anxiety, like attraction is not a choice. They are both encoded in us for our survival. Therefore we have very little control over them. You Feel them and they dictate to you. However they are not rational or logical and often make mistakes. Since they do dictate to us, their mistakes are ours. Bad analogy, I am walking thru the woods, see something out of corner of my eye, think it is snake, take off running, before I realize it is a stick, and sprain ankle. Obviously these fears can be conditioned out of us, as the crocodile hunter demonstrates.
In our sitches we are afraid of losing our SO, and actually end up doing the opposite of what needs to be done, to avoid the outcome we are afraid of. For women this wrong often does not get righted until they are so fed up they are willing to walk or do walk . Then the man is willing to do anything to change but tooooo late. Not only is she fed up/given up but his resultant reaction from unexpected loss, withdrawal, and FEAR, leads him to acting even MORE unattractive to her.
For men, they fear loosing their SO so instead of doing what she needs, acting Strong, making decisions, being able to listen to her thru the code, which means not personalizing or having hurt feelings, they try to give the woman whatever she asks for, giving in to ridiculous emotional outbursts, caving to demands, breaking when tested, while in reality giving her nothing she needs. It makes sense to a man because if she would just give him what he wanted (sex?) he would be happy.
The reality is no man ever puts up with these things in the beginning of a R. If she behaved this way he would set a clear boundary of stop or Next. This leads to her not feeling attracted, hence no nookie, so he finds it elsewhere, or continues to whine and complain until she again gets fed up and goes to find a REAL man.
Occasionally he will get fed up, starts demanding some respect, issuing ultimatums which is not as effective as earning and acting in a way that gets respect but starts a sufficient chain to work the way back. It is hard, hard, hard to do this without blowing his cool from frustration.
The Nop's have mentioned an incident where he expressed his appreciation for her fighting with him and throwing food at each other then running away or withdrawing.
I am going to address some of your comments from the previous post now Cobra.
I have no 'Proof' to offer other then my words, and so I am extremely hesitant to enter into something that is going to become attack and defend.
Several of your quotes and guesses have been entirely off the mark from the context of what I posted, but if this is an attack as opposed to a discussion it will be clear soon enough.
You have some really good insights that I see as being not quite finished, and have also added to my knowledge recently in a couple of your postings. Because of this I will see if we can get off on a different foot. If not I will just ignore you.
But in my mind you still seem to have some confusion over what went wrong. My take is that during the days after she left, your “crazy making” was from not being able to reconcile her actions when the sincere intentions and efforts you had been making. You could not find a rational explanation for why she left
I actually know exactly what I did wrong. We had crashing insecurities that were exacerbated by allowing and enabling OM to infiltrate and assault my marriage. I take responsibility and understand it all rationally.
My 'crazy making' comes from her continued contact with me, attraction for, and unwillingness to make a decision.
At no time has she ever accused me of being domineering or manipualtive, she left the second time because of an uncharacteristic ( that means I havent done it before, I dont lose my temper with women. ) outburst of mine that led her to believe that I could/would never forgive her for what had transpired.
I dont have panic, I have pain at the loss of something wonderful to me, pain that she is doing this on a chance, that will not come to fruition, and pain from her pain, confusion, and depresssion that I hold myself responsible for but am unable to do anything about.
when I speak to her of the damage done from her angry spells, the toxic shaming she would put forth, the fights with my father, she will not accept any responsibility
This was about your mother as an example, but there is nothing of me in this statement.
True compatibility in a healthy relationship depends on honesty, openness, good communication, and a thorough understanding of you and your partner’s issues (I’m sure I’m missing other important things
This is why I am not 'trying' to get my x back like I did my first go round. This will come off cocky but I know I have the skill to frame control and dial up attraction with her enough to 'win' again. This is not winning to me. I did it the first time for her, out of love, at much cost to myself.
Trust, honesty, and communication, (not my skills at decoding) are too important to me. It is not her deciding to 'forsake all others' or not have any involvement with OM.
I interpret your suggestions as falling into two camps, what I will call tactics and overall strategy.....By tactics I am thinking of how someone would approach a particular issue, how to get a point across, how to resolve a particular habit, a point in time action
First my 'tactics' are not to control or manip. They are to improve myself as a person, and remove insecurity from myself. By doing this I am able to remove fear, and hence acting out or in a incorrect manner. If I am confidant, then I will be unafraid to simply BE MYSELF, which will in turn attract women in general, but specifically allow me to clearly know my boucndaries, and in turn not be afraid of losing those that are not truly compatible with ME.
If these were point in time actions, tactics, or a strategy
it wouldnt matter how good a actor I am or practiced at these 'tactics' I was; it would very very shortly be seen thru by any women because of the lack of congruence with my actions and specifically body language, and even quicker by a 'intelligent' woman where everything has to mesh. 'Dumb' girls ( I use that term loosely as there are 7 kinds of intelligence) those that are kinetically skilled instead of verbally adept, can be swayed much better with JUST body language, then with trying to use words.
I had a very successful R for 8 years, untill I stopped being myself, ran into insecurity, and severed the EC with my x instead of maintaining and protecting it when it was vulnerable. She HAS said this. quoting her " why did you push me away when I asked you to be there? why did you bring OM into everything if you knew he was like that?"
Thank you for making my head hurt again. cobra.
Bastard j/k rough weekend.
Anyways I lost my x because I stopped doing what I know to be true. She lost respect for me because of it and OM capitalized on it.
Star wars is cheesy but the statement fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to the dark side is so true. All of our actions in a R are fouled and incorrect when they are driven by fear.
I dont wish to control and at the same time I will not allow others to control me. Women are wired to test us as men, their survival and there progenies survival depend on it. When we slip up, even if we recover, the testing is momentarily amped up untill it is convincing and reliable again. This idea has been borne out IMO on this board over and over again.
You should start a thread for yourself. As a self proclaimed introvert, you could stand some social skill work. You have read so much, climb out of your intellectual ivory tower- so to speak- and let us offer you some outsider insight. It HELPS tremendously.
I say this as someone who never wants help. Love to be there for others... never want to need others.
Working on it.
Believe it or not, I am very happy to see your reply. No, I do not want to attack you. I do learn a lot from your insights and feel that we may be uniquely suited to help each other, in that we are in many ways opposite personalities. I do not see either one of us as being in the “middle” of the bell curve of personality types. Your are to one end and I am to the other. We probably both need to move toward the middle some.
I will need a little time to pull together some replies. I have been wanting to start my own thread, but my posts are so long already, I’m almost afraid I could thread-lock it on my own. I will make quick comments to other threads, then work on these two.
Blackfoot! I missed you the last few days. I was justing saying to myself, "Why have I not had the urge to spit my coffee all over the computer screen? Hmmm.....Oh yeah, Blackfoot isn't here!" Ah, come on, it's just a joke I'm still lovin ya! Anyways, I will read more carefully through this thread and catchup on the others and post some "serious" commentary in a bit. Sorry you had a bad weekend.
While I could express myself very openly with OM, I STILL am not able to do that with H. His anxiety makes me uncomfortable to the point of not wanting to TRULY share myself with him.
This remark plays in exactly to my belief that the mans mental state is what sets the R dynamic. LFL has the desire and demonstrated ability with a man who is not anxious. She wants to, she wants it to be her H. She knows her H is anxious from his body language and words.
YES! Blackfoot hit the nail on the head with this one and whether it is from evolutionary biology or not, it is TRUE. At least for me. OM was a "typical" man to me in that he did not talk a lot but his behaviors "said" it all. He demonstrated confidence, attitude, sex appeal. etc. It was HOT and just what I was needing at the time. Now I do not think that would have turned into a long lasting R for the simple fact that I like to talk sometimes too, it's not all about the sex That's why women can be hard to please (I admit that I probably am). I want a man with both aggressive/masculine/HD sexual qualities as well as a man that is sensitive, a good conversationalist, stimulates my mind as well as body, has similar interests, you get the idea. Here's some introspection: This is probably why I am drawn to you and Globule. Both of you hold qualitites that I am very attracted to in a man. So There! I'm not ashamed to admit it. Once again, I am very AWARE of my behaviors and feelings. Doesn't mean I can always control it though Or more likely, I CHOOSE not to control it because I get something out of those behaviors/feelings that I need. Hmm... Enough about me, let's get to you. What's the deal with the continued pursuit by the ex. Why did you have such a crappy weekend? Do share. I'm sincerly interested.
Re: I can speak with some authority on this subject because as I mentioned before, my mother has these same traits
Sorry but I do not feel this entitles you to diagnose another person. Though you may have first hand experience dealing with a person with this disorder it gives you no experience in detecting it in others. Just because a symptom appears simular it may have several different causes. If I state I have a rash can you tell me what the cause of it is? No there are several things that can cause a rash. But the outward appearance is the same. I read I believe on Honeypots thread that you like to look for patterns. I understand that but I think you are doing more then that when you project in words what you find as a diagnosis. You do not say I think it is possible that so and so may have xxxxx You say IMO. As Gel said on Globes thread others who are desperately seeking help/advice/guidence may see some simularities in what you say to fit there self or spouse and then run full throttle with it. This amateur labling of people may become detrimental to there sitch. We are here to help each other and give each other advice but not medical advice though at times we may suggest someone look into a medical condition. But none of us here to my knowledge hold the degrees it requires to slap a lable on another person.
And again I state I do not feel your idea of BF condition is all that accurate.I have read two articles on web md since you suggested this and still do not feel it fits BF IMO. And it is not because he has manipulated me into adoration for him. I love his banter with others and he can bemuse me at times but he did not manipulate me to make me feel this way. It is not the presentation that he comes off with that holds my attention it is the underlying meaning of what he is saying that captivates me.
Okay sorry BF
Now I do have a question for you
I say this as someone who never wants help. Love to be there for others... never want to need others.
The last part of this statement is so me. And sicne it puzzles me as to why and since you say that is how you are also. I am gonna ask. You say you are working on it. How? This is something I to need to work on but where to start is got me baffled. How do you start needing people or things from people? Sounds like a silly question I know. But when you have spent as long as you can remember being self reliant and knowing you can do it on your own. How do you turn around that thought behavior?
“Sorry but I do not feel this entitles you to diagnose another person. Though you may have first hand experience dealing with a person with this disorder it gives you no experience in detecting it in others. Just because a symptom appears simular it may have several different causes.”
On the contrary, I believe I have a very good knowledge of narcissism, a first hand lifetime experience. I believe researchers and authors on the subject will have similar experience coupled with formalized study. They are certainly more knowledgeable than I, but I do not think that lessens my experience.
I am very careful to state that “I think” or “I believe” or “I feel” to be sure not to make my comments sound like a guarantee. If someone wants to read more into my statements, there is little I can do. This is a public board and as such all statements are opinions only.
“I read I believe on Honeypots thread that you like to look for patterns. I understand that but I think you are doing more then that when you project in words what you find as a diagnosis. You do not say I think it is possible that so and so may have xxxxx You say IMO. As Gel said on Globes thread others who are desperately seeking help/advice/guidence may see some simularities in what you say to fit there self or spouse and then run full throttle with it.”
The field of psychology is nothing more than opinion and statistical sampling. The reason for the sampling is there is no way to know the true population and the underlying trend. The social sciences, even economics, are based on guesses and estimates. There are no “hard” answers like in mathematics, physics or chemistry. So even the “experts” do not know. Secondly, those very experts do just that – look for patterns, i.e., correlations between their assumptions and observations. How does one differentiate true narcissism from simple arrogance? Can it be measured and weighed? It cannot. Classification is based on a defined set of rules. But how are those rules set? And how is the evaluation made whether the condition satisfies the rules or not? It is all subjective and open to different interpretation. There is no right answer. This is the nature of the beast.
I believe what you may have issue with is my style of writing. I use a formal/professional grammatical style. That is my preference. Others here use a more familiar, informal style. I do not favor this, but I can understand how the contrast makes mine sound more “clinical” and therefore gives an air of certainty. I’m sorry if that bothers you, but that is me.
“This amateur labling of people may become detrimental to there sitch. We are here to help each other and give each other advice but not medical advice though at times we may suggest someone look into a medical condition. But none of us here to my knowledge hold the degrees it requires to slap a lable on another person.”
I have several times stated my background, education and qualifications, short of posting a resume. (I am preparing an in depth description of myself and my situation.) I see nothing wrong with some labeling. I also think it helps in describing and differentiating one characteristic versus another. I try to explain my thoughts as clearly as I can and avoid as much ambiguity as I can. I try to use examples when I can think of one to help get my point across. One way of stating something may go right past someone, but may ring a bell with someone else. This is all part of the art of communication, creating a resonance and getting across your message. In this way I am trying to help others too.
“And again I state I do not feel your idea of BF condition is all that accurate.I have read two articles on web md since you suggested this and still do not feel it fits BF IMO. And it is not because he has manipulated me into adoration for him. I love his banter with others and he can bemuse me at times but he did not manipulate me to make me feel this way. It is not the presentation that he comes off with that holds my attention it is the underlying meaning of what he is saying that captivates me.”
I do not have a crystal ball and can only state what I think and feel from reading this computer screen. I am not an “expert” in psychology. Feel free to disagree, Blackfoot disagrees with me. I have no problem with that. Build your case, support your opinions, and I will buy it. I am only doing the same, then I lay it out for others to critique. You decide whether to accept it or not.
And there is nothing wrong with chasing down a dead end. I have done that plenty of times. While it may not pertain to what I am researching, I still learn from it. The incentive to not make excessive false statement is loss of credibility. If you think I have fallen into that hole, then disregard me. But I will continue to do the best I can.
Blackfoot,
Sorry to have not responded yet. I am working on my sitch.
The field of psychology is nothing more than opinion and statistical sampling. The reason for the sampling is there is no way to know the true population and the underlying trend. The social sciences, even economics, are based on guesses and estimates. There are no “hard” answers like in mathematics, physics or chemistry. So even the “experts” do not know. Secondly, those very experts do just that – look for patterns, i.e., correlations between their assumptions and observations Well, I had to comment on this Cobra. All of the social sciences are "science" or they could not be called such. It is not based on "opinion" "guesses" or "estimates." True, the systematic observation in social science differs than in physics, math, etc , but all science is tentative. What we consider fact at one point in time may be "proven" false at another. ie. earth center of the galaxy or the sun (just as an example). The social sciences certainly use more subjective testing than the hard sciences but it systematic, measurable, testable. You are right about always looking for patterns and correlations. You brought up narcissism and arrogance. How is that measurable? Well, a psychologist would look to see to what DEGREE the behavior is impacting the person's life. Is it becoming dysfunctional to them and/or others around them? All mental health professionals work out of the DSM-1V (Diagnostic Statistical Manual) which has every mental health diagnosis recognized in the profession. I don't have it in front of me but Narcissistic Personality Disorder is diagnosed based on the individual meeting certain critieria (probably 7 out of 9 of the following traits/behaviors, something like that). Only a trained mental health professional can make that diagnosis, obviously. It's fun though to self-diagnose as well as all friends and family around you. I do it all the time You have some interesting ideas Cobra and you do come off very professor-like
I am in agreement with you. The DSM defines things very well. But my point is that the “experts” can come to different opinions on whether someone meets those definitions or not. I’ve not had direct experience with narcissism diagnosis, but I have had it with ADD. My wife is adamant that our kids have ADD. Two experts said no, the second saying there was a “touch” in the middle child. But my wife kept fishing around and found an “expert” who would tell her what she wanted to hear, so the kids are on meds.
So I don’t take anything from an “expert” as gospel, be that from a counselor or MD.
j/k rough weekend.
You have read so much, climb out of your intellectual ivory tower- so to speak- and let us offer you some outsider insight. It HELPS tremendously.
Sounds like a silly question I know. But when you have spent as long as you can remember being self reliant and knowing you can do it on your own. How do you turn around that thought behavior? 