Sorry to hear about that convo. But, why didn't you ask her why she didn't call you to let you know she was going to be later than she had said? That's probably something you might want to work on for yourself...don't hold those things in. Ask a simple question, it was a valid question.
You two have communcation issues (you both do). Stay away from telling her things like "you need to tell me"....rephrase things like that to "I need you to tell me"....try to keep these things in the "I" context. Because what you are really trying to get across to her is what YOU need....not what she needs. From her side of things I can imagine when you said "you need to..." she's thinking "like he**" I need to!". Especially if she's got something she just doesn't want to talk about....that'll get her to dig her heels in further.
My H will talk about the weather, the tractor, his truck, the pasture, the horses, work, airplanes....anything but US. This is something we're working on....and I suspect your W has some difficulties with this too. This "communication" issue is one of the main things we're workign on in counseling....and we're making some improvements, but it takes time....sometimes a long time.
Beware of trying to have big "R" talks too often too....that is just as likely to shut her down. If you try to talk too much about these things and nothing else with her she's going to think you two can't have a conversation without you trying to turn it around to a convo about you two. I found, that for me, I wanted to work through this issue so badly that I would bring things up too often...and it came across as nagging. I think you are running the risk of doing this too.
What do you think she'd say if you asked her to go to a MC with you to work on your communication....nothing to do with sex, just communication? I suspect there's something that keeps her from talking to you the way you want...just as there's something that holds my H back.
My H and I are slowly (very slowly) working through this....but at times it's like pulling teeth.
Quote: Beware of trying to have big "R" talks too often too....that is just as likely to shut her down. If you try to talk too much about these things and nothing else with her she's going to think you two can't have a conversation without you trying to turn it around to a convo about you two.
This is true. I can only say that I try to limit to a bare minimum. The thing is, sometimes there are things we (or I if you like) need to talk about, be it small or bigger. Even small things turn into me hitting my head on a brick wall. For example, earlier this week I asked her if she wanted to join me in the evening at the gym. What she appearantly hears me say based on the way she responds (regardless of how I say it) is "you should go to the gym more often" or "you're fat", etc. It's another of those catch 22s. She explicitly told me I should motivate her more to work out at the gym, ask her along, etc, but when I do, it's like she takes her own guilt about it, projects it on me and turns it into something negative. It's nay impossible to not 'talk' about such or respond in such a way that it doesn't move into one of those non-talks. e.g:
"I didn't say that"
"Yes, but you are thinking it"
"I am not thinking that"
"Well, you are, you do think I'm lazy and have no character"
"You're second guessing what you believe I am thinkingand you are distrusting my motives."
Etc...
Is there a way out? Yes. Pulling out I guess. I'll make it her choice if she wants to connect with me or not.
Quote: What do you think she'd say if you asked her to go to a MC with you to work on your communication....nothing to do with sex, just communication? I suspect there's something that keeps her from talking to you the way you want...just as there's something that holds my H back.
My guess is that it would have a very negative impact, as it would for her be the utlimate signal that it's 'extremely serious'. Guilt is one of her issues. She feels guilty for it, but then she can't get herself to actually make a change, or do something. Her strategie is sticking her head in the sand.
She is seeing a therapist on a weekly basis. She never ever tells me what they talk about, what goes or on not. If I didn't know she has a weekly appointment, nothing would ever hint she went. She once told me I could come along some time, but when I tried to put thay in inkt, there was alwaysa reason why it was either inconvenient, or how she thought it might be a bad moment, etc. So I gave up on that. I'm not going to force myself or herself in there.
mqo wrote[quot]For a philisophical analogy, it's a different form of the good old tree in the wood: "If a tree falls in the wood, and you pretend you didn't hear it, and look away, you can comfort yourself with the idea that it never fell."
Well put.
I think you should go to the therapist with her sometime. She invited you. You may have to force her out of her comfort zone-- anyway, she's clearly not very comfortable there. Are you sure she's actually going to the therapist and not just shopping or something. Doesn't sound like a lot of progress.
Sorry that things are in such an up and down mode. I recently discovered a book that I think addresses some of these kinds of issues in a different way than some of the other literature we've discussed on this site. The book is called "In the Mood Again" and addresses issues of appropriate power exchange in relationships.
It is analagous to what PM talks about as "growing up" within your relationship but addresses it in a clearer sort of way. I thought of it when I read about your W coming home late after saying she would be early. The issue involves respect and power exchange (reciprocity) as does the issue of getting our partner all heated up then turning them down. Anyway, what I REALLY liked about the book is that it addresses issues of choice in whether or not to respond to our partner's bids for sexual attention. For example, if we have a crappy day and we come home to our partner having fixed a nice meal, lit candles, cleaned the house etc... we can see it as "Hey that's really nice. Let's spend some time but I still don't feel like sex." or "Knock it off that's sexual pressure and I'm pissed" or "Let's spend some time together and I'll stay open to my mood changing." It is the choice of the person coming home after a bad day. It is a choice regardless of whether you are HD or LD.
I just started the book so I have no idea if the ideas will help at all. Some of the book is old hat (sexual response cycle blah blah blah) and it addresses a few medical issues but most of the people on this site have issues that don't appear to be of medical origin. The book does a really good job of addressing desire. It does p!ss me off that examples were most always wives who were LD but in many of those cases the H had stopped caring whether or not they had sex also.
When my H was going to the therapist on his own I thought it was a good thing....at first, turns out I was shooting myself in the foot. I had no way of knowing that things were or weren't being addressed (they weren't). It didn't help him communicate more with me....he didn't. We ended up spending 6-mo's and hundreds of dollars on nothing....and I never had a clue. I really encourage you two to switch C's....find one who will see you as a couple.
Seeing a C together has been the best thing we have done so far.
Oh, and I also used to get the "Yes, but you are thinking it" "I am not thinking that"
banter conversations too. I've put an end to that by telling my H "If you really believe I'm thinking that, you really don't know me very well." End of conversation. The key is YOU end the non-productive conversation. Refuse to go round and round with her. Since I started doing that my H has done much better about not assuming what I'm thinking.
And when you run into those situations like when you ask her to the gym and you believe she hears something different from what you are asking.....ask her something about her reaction, clarify it. Don't you fall into the trap that you thinks she's thinking something. Remind her "You've asked me to encourage you to come with me, that's what I'm doing, care to join me? I'd love your company."
Quote: When my H was going to the therapist on his own I thought it was a good thing....at first, turns out I was shooting myself in the foot. I had no way of knowing that things were or weren't being addressed (they weren't).
I don't know. I do think some points are being addressed. Some time ago when I was at a real down, she said to me "I realize sex is important to you, and Karin told me that most of all, you feel hurt". At the time I thought it was a bit of a break through. It wasn't. It was more perhaps how she sees the importance of it to me, and how she's willing to accept the pov of her therapist, but I wonder if she actually subscribed to the idea rather than regarding it a possible explanation of things. It didn't make her pursue change or improvement.
Quote: It didn't help him communicate more with me....he didn't. We ended up spending 6-mo's and hundreds of dollars on nothing....and I never had a clue. I really encourage you two to switch C's....find one who will see you as a couple.
This is true. We don't communicate better. in fact, i think it might actually have a reverse effect. She has an outlet for her emotions and feelings, and a very secure and safe one in that. I don't, except this board, which I must add works very therapeutical, thanks ppl .
Maybe her having an outlet for her fears, emotions, feelings and whatelse you have not is fulfilling enough to perhaps remove any need to talk about it with me. Just a wild punch in the dark: the fact that she is (or might be) talking about issues with her therapist gives her a feeling that 'she is talking about it'. The fact that she's talkign with a therapist instead of me only being a minor detail.... Does that sound plausible?
Quote: Seeing a C together has been the best thing we have done so far.
Yes, maybe I should really persue this. Maybe best I put it down matter of fact: "I think we should seek C". No explanation, arguments why or not. just matter of fact that I really think it's time we go to C together. If that sends her off into despair (odd enough, she has abandonement fears) and interprets it as the first signs of a D, well, so be it.
Quote: The key is YOU end the non-productive conversation. Refuse to go round and round with her. Since I started doing that my H has done much better about not assuming what I'm thinking.
I have tried this now and then with varying results. She often used to dwell in self pity. For example, if I told her about emotional needs (like, "I need some TLC and affection tonight"), she'd respond by "I can't give you what you need". I told her that I won't accept this kind of negative (or self pity) talk, adn that I won't respond to it. Some times it worked, some times it made her clamshell. We can set our boundaries that we won't accept the behavior, but we can't change the negative spin she puts herself in, wether she expresses it or not.
Quote: Remind her "You've asked me to encourage you to come with me, that's what I'm doing, care to join me? I'd love your company."
Well, I'll give you some more on the convo further on as best as I can remember it, as it will give you some insight of the catches in it.
"You asked me if I could motivate you to go to the gym"
"Yes, but I don't like to go the the gym"
"So you don't want to go to the gym?"
"Well, I do want to go, I whish I could make myself go, but maybe I really don't want to go"
"Ok, so if I get your point, you whish you were the kind of person that can make herself go to the gym"
"Yes"
"So, if you wish you were that kind of person, why not make yourself that kind of person? It's quite simple, really. The only thing you need to do is make that decision that you are going to make happen what you wish for. A whish is wanting something but expecting it to happen by miracle. In order for things to happen, you have to make them happen."
"Hmmm, yes"
"And basically, you put me in the blame position. On one hand you whish you could make it to the gym, and you ask me to help make that happen, but then you don't really want to go, and get mad at me when I ask you to come along. How fair is that?"
"No, that's not really fair"
That's was about the end of the convo. As interesting as it may be, it doesn't lead anywhere. What I perpetually miss is her commiting to making a change. She acknowledges something isn't working, and then continues on in the same way. I once told her that the only way to mak eit work is set like one day per week, commit to it, and stick to it. And have consequences for not going. Eg, we would have a nice dinner out each week she went, but not if she skipped.
Actually, there are many issues from the beginning of the R where she wanted me to help, but never committed to it herself. Most I have graciously ignored and never even mentioned. Like, she's bad at managing her mail, financials and such, and she asked me to help her get better at it. we made a plan, I proposed various things she could do, and she all thought they were good ideas. she never really committed to any of it, and she's back to her old ways in that. I simply accepted nothing was changing there, and just gave up on trying to help her. It is not something I see as an 'issue' in our R, it doesn't bother me. And we never had a fight over it, as it's just an organisational issue. but it's exemplatory of how she expresses 'whishes' or 'wants' but fails to connect the dots that the only way to get what you want, is by actually making a change, putting effort in it and committing to it.
While she may be talking to her C about important issues, and that's always possible...what's not happening by her seeing someone alone is this....she's not learning to talk to YOU, which is in reality one of the things you are telling her you need. She has her emotional outlet, her confidant....so she doesn't need to talk to you.....and by seeing a C on her own, she's not likely to start.
A good couple's therapist is going to teach you both how to communicate more effectively with each other...and help you break down the barriers when it comes to communicating about things that are tough....or talking about things (like my H) that you just are used to talking about with someone.
Re GEL Oh, and I also used to get the "Yes, but you are thinking it" "I am not thinking that" I've put an end to that by telling my H "If you really believe I'm thinking that, you really don't know me very well." End of conversation GEL Good way to stop the merry-go-round. I get some of that (you are thinking stuff) too guys.
That used to be my H's typical way of thinking...he used to constantly jump on the defensive and assume the worst.....which I have never given him reason to assume when it comes to me. It's a narcassistic pattern, where they try to get you to behave the way they "think" you will.
Personally I hate it!! I view it as a manipulation and it goes right through me. I know my H isn't actually intentionally trying to manipulate me and that makes it all the more frustrating at times. That's why I've started learning how to shut it down when it happens....I'm telling you it's effective, especially if you do it calmly and then walk away, it's important not to lose your temper...just walk away, lends more impact to what you've said.
"I could try, and I think I did, but it will never be good enough" "I know I am a bad person" "I hate myself" "I can't give you what you need"
Etc.
While I realize they don't mean this as such, it is a form of 'pitty blackmail'. For example, convo: - "I would like it when you get home to have 5 or 10 minutes of being together and affection before you grab your laptop" - "You see? I can't give you what you need"
This is a sure road where she'll eventually have you saying something as in 'it's not good enough' eventualy.
Cap1: - "Yes, you can" - "But you tell me it's not good enough" - "I don't say that, I am saying how I want it better" - "So what you say is that it is bad now"
Cap2: - "No, it's more than good enough. I love and respect how you meet all my needs. Sorry, I was a bit selfish there, I know how much you like to be on the computer" - "Thanks." *kiss* *grabs laptop and is 'out of there'
I do call it pity blackmail as the person dwells in their own negativity, and I would say they expect to be soothed. I am not sure if it is a concious / defensive / evasive strategy. Anyway, I have told her that next time she turns any talk that way, that I will be out of the door for the rest of the day/evening and most likely to return late and drunk.
.