I also posted about how she does appreciate non-sexual intimacy, and how I decided to abstain whenever I know it will drive me bonkers as I'm into ML.
'We' weren't getting anywhere (or rather rather 'I'). So, I took it a step further, and have now cut down drastically on all intimacy. So, when we're for example on the couch, she won't get a cuddle and a loving embrace. I don't invite her to lay her head on my lap. I don't exactly deny her any, but I don't initiate any.
I know it sounds cruel, or perhaps as revenge, but to me, it's two-fold. First of all, initiating initmacy will actually increase your desire of the moment. It's some sort of ancient 'prehistorical mating' instinct perhaps, I don't know, but ny shutting myself out of it, I actually fair a lot better.
Initially I did this more out of self preservation, keeping my sanity, but it actually has improved my W's desire and attitude. Last night she actually fully initiated ML while I wasn't showing any signs of being in the mood or having the urge. She snug up to me in bed, and asked if she "could snuggle with me". I aaid something akin to "well, I don't want to get worked up and then being left stone cold with you snoring away, but you can sleep on my shoulder and hold me a bit if you want". She looked at me, smiled and said "Well, I wasn't planning on leaving you in the cold". She was rather passionate, and I sincerely feel she was really 'in to it'. We had a VERY good evenig of sex. My W normally has trouble getting the big O, but (with some aid), she had a really good one. (the kind I like to label 'the buckling bronco').
I know it's likely contrary to most advise from the SSM and others, but I guess it might work as my W does have some basic desire and need for intimacy as well. It's just that because I'm the HD, her well never got drained, so she never was much in a position for 'desire' as she never experienced a shortage or a need for more. Now that's she's on a 'diet' so to speak, I think she actually realizes perhaps that she does have desires?
The only pitfall I could see is the slight danger I'll turn myself into the LD spouse in this M.
This is something I had been doing with my H as well...it's actually a 180 of your behavior.
It's not done out of spite, as you already said, it's done out of self preservation.....and, it gives the OP plenty of room to come to you. It also, in my experience makes it that much more apparant that the affection/attention in the R is most definitely one-sided....because when you stop giving the touches etc...your spouse at some point can't help but notice it's not happening anymore. Many times that will mean they will eventually come to you. It doesn't always happen that way....but in your case (and in mine to some extent) it has worked that way
Actually, the way I managed to make it work without her seeing it as revenge is by being 100% upbeat and nice while denying her her needs. So, if we would be in bed, and she'd wanted to snuggle a bit, I'd smile at her, giggle a bit, move her arms gently out of the way and say liek "no no no no, none of that". And she gets the point. It actually can be fun, as I used her 'excuses' a couple of times. Little banter, but she kind of realizes how shallow those sound when you're on the receiving end.
It's actually quite funny. I mean, how many people would call a W who wants to sleep on her H's shoulder every night 'pushy' and 'demanding'? The concept is exactly the same as ML, it's just another form of intimacy. (and a bit more work and swaet, granted).
I agree with you, Gel. I see it as a form of reciprocity.
It's not meant to be mercenary or vindictive, but no marital relationship is going to be healthy if one person is doing most of the work for *years*.
If you find yourself handing out footrubs, massages, personal errands, personal projects, etc. to a spouse that seldom, if ever, reciprocates, then you're growing a crop of entitlement that will destroy your relationship even further.
We tend to assume that if we do many of the right, kind things that our spouse will reciprocate from the warm, fuzzy feelings we've generated in them. That works with some spouses, and those are the ones who soon respond.
But not everyone operates that way. Some folks assume that you're doing these things because you want to do them, and therefore they are under no obligation to reciprocate. In fact, they begin (or always saw) those things as their just due and may protest vehemently at your "meanness" if you take them away.
Re: Mqo we're for example on the couch, she won't get a cuddle and a loving embrace. I don't invite her to lay her head on my lap. ........Initially I did this more out of self preservation, keeping my sanity,
I had to do something like this to keep from getting so frustrated. It worked for a while but then the sled (relationship)went to the bottom of the hill.
You have to check the pulse of the R and determine if what you are doing is working or getting you farther away from your goal.
I have tried the non touching thing and have gone for months and get absoulutely nothing from the wife. SO it does not work for me. In fact, my wife has not touched me in an affectionate way in several years. I guess this only works on spouses that actually have at least a small need for touch.
I've done this from time-to-time. Sometimes it was from a feeling of retribution. Sometimes it was just a milder form of that, which I guess you might call reciprocity. And sometimes it was just self-preservation. It didn't matter what the reason was. She would never "come to me."
However, lately, she has initiated more touch. I think it's because I keep bringing it up in the MC sessions that I recognize her attempts and appreciate them. And, when a week or two goes by when the physical touch has been rare, I mention it, and she can't disagree.
As far as doing the extra things like errands and projects for her, she always thought I did these because I wanted sex. And I almost always did these kinds of things when she asked me to. But I don't always do them now. "Can you rub my shoulders?" gets answered sometimes with a, "sorry...I just don't feel like it right now" instead of immediate action.
The deal is, yeah, I used to think "if I spend all day mowing the yard and making the house look great, she'll be happy with me and reward me." I stopped thinking that way after being "burned" about a dozen (or was it a hundred) times. (I'm a slow learner sometimes).
Now, I do whatever needs to get done. I do it when I want to do it, and I do it my way. I'm not getting any more (or any less) sex than I used to, but my attitude is much better. And that's the only thing over which I have any control.
There is absolutely (of course) no guarantee that this approach will work, it's just something to try...as we are all trying to find SOMETHING that will get through to our S right?
I believe MQO's W & my H are similar in the fact that they do need physical affection from us...but have become become complacent and have taken it for granted. For us, I believe, when we withdraw the physical touch (that comes so natural to us) after awhile our spouses do notice it's absence, which in a way makes them come to us to seek it out again.
I forget how old your children are....but, just speaking as a mom here, there are days my S2 has just worn me out....crawled all over me, drug me around, hung on me....and basically it was him saying "me! me! me!" constantly (no I'm not a SAHM either...that'd just about kill me...PROPS to you HP and others!). But when he does that...I really don't crave affection from my H....it's like I've had physical contact overkill. No, it's not the same type of contact you want that's absolutely true....but it's like I've had my fill of my personal space being invaded and need time to be left to myself, without anyone demanding anything of me.....teenagers could do the same thing by demanding time constantly and keeping life simply busy.
Now...this is me (a woman I would consider fairly average in our lifestyle today)...a wife who works outside the home 40 hours per week, cares for our only S2 primarily when we are not working (often by myself as H works outside, or works opposite shift), cooks, cleans, does laundry etc....and even I get physical contact overload...with just one child....and we don't have an overly busy lifestyle.
I'm just wondering....if your W experiences this as well. That's not excusing it mind you, that's just trying to figure out why she (from what you say) never seeks out physical contact from you. If the kids are demanding of her in that way....she may truly not have that need/desire for it from you....and when you are worn out in that manner it can truly kill your desire for sexual contact too....I know, I experience this now in my late 30's. Does that mean I wouldn't hop at the chance to ML with my H if he offered...heck no I wouldn't turn that down...but that's because he's the one who is LD in our R. If he were the HD person in our R...I wouldn't turn him down, but I wouldn't be seeking it out as often either.
Just out of curiosity CeMar...what do you believe your W would say if you said to her "if you aren't going to attempt to fulfill my needs then you need to get ok with someone else doing that."? I said that to my H a few weeks ago in counseling....and that combined with the fact that I finally truly understood I would leave if things didn't change (which I know you said isn't an option for you) are what I believe is causing a few changes now.
GEL
I'm just trying to help ferret out a dynamic that could be happening in your household.
Quote: You have to check the pulse of the R and determine if what you are doing is working or getting you farther away from your goal.
Lou
It's a dark morning this morning.
Yesterday evening, I said to W that I would like to go to bed early and talk. We had some stuff I think we needed to talk about, or rather, I want her to talk about and for me to listen. She distances herself from talking about things she doesn't like or doesn't want to share with me.
It's little things sometimes, big times sometimes, it's not really essential, the main point is she shows a sincere lack in getting in touch with me on an emotional level. Or call it lack of empathy.
Anyway, this is what led up to it:
Yesterday afternoon she emailed me that she would be home early. Normally she comes home from work between 6:30 and 7, but she would leave early and be home before 6.
I cancelled my gym, got grocies and made dinner. At 7 still no show. At 7:30 she finally came home. I asked her "What happened? I thought you'd be home early?" She simply said: "I worked late on my freelance job". For her that was obviously more than enough closure as her next line was "Can we watch 'so you think you can dance' tonight?" (As an aside, she knows I hate this kind of shows and this one in paticular)
I assume that's all she thinks that needed to be said. It baffles me how she fails to empathize with my disappointment in her showing up late. It was her choice to work late, her small freelance job she has on the side is something she can freely pick hours for.
You can imagine all the questions that I wanted to ask. "Why do you email me you'll be home early, and then instead work late?" "Why didn't you simply email me or call me to say you'd be late?" "Can't you see that maybe I feel disappointed? Not important enough to tell me you'd be late instead?" "Why don't you express how you're sorry about being late?" "Is it because you can't? Because you don't realize how I feel? Because you don't think you have to comfort me or don't want to?"
I said nothing of the above.
I think it's part of her distancing. She surpresses the unpleasant, no matter how small or big, and simply ignores their presence or that perhaps they have to be dealt with. Like she can easily tell me 'nice' things, like how she will be home early. But then, for whatever reason she wants to work late (which is her choice, I don't mind the fact she'd be late), she can't bring herself to tell me she'd be late instead as that is an unpleasant message. She doesn't want to talk about unpleasant things. I can only she would feel guilty telling me she'd be home later when she said it would be early, so she kinds of stuffs it away and pretends all this doesn't exist. If you pretend unpleasant thoughts or emotions don't exist, or pretend what you do or did doesn't upset your S, it didn't happen.
For a philisophical analogy, it's a different form of the good old tree in the wood: "If a tree falls in the wood, and you pretend you didn't hear it, and look away, you can comfort yourself with the idea that it never fell."
Instead, I waited untill after 'SYTYCD' was over, and then told her I'd like to get to bed early and talk. During the show, I carefully thought about how to raise the issue without pushing her into the defense. It's something we need to talk about, as it's not incidental, it's a pattern where she pulls out and retreats on anything 'unpleasant'. That could be her own feelings, or her sense of how I might be feeling.
Well, we talked for a little bit, and I thought we were doing ok, I managed to have her talk a bit, managed to explain to her why I wanted to talk. When we got more to the core of how she tends to withdraw or ignore the 'unpleasant', she fell more silent. I waited for a while. then I said: "I need you to talk to me, you need to explain to me why this happens, or how I can help. I need you to talk to me. we're supposed to share, not to withhold." Her reply was "I'm sorry, I am tired, I want to go to sleep"
Another pullout. It was only just after 10, nto even late by our standards. I bluntly said to her "That's a lie, and you know it. You're telling me that if the house was now on fire, you'd be too tired to stay awake and take action and would burn to a crisp on your bed? I believe you may well be tired, but I fail to accept you can't stay awake for a little longer and talk to me. You're making a concious choice that you'd rather not talk to me, and rather pull out into the bliss and ignorance of sleep, hoping tomorrow we'd all 'forgotton' about it and move on like nothing needs to be dealt with or talked about."
She said: "Well, not entirely, but yes, I guess so". I told her "I almost always respect your sleep. I respect your napping in the weekends. The few times I want you to be there emotionally, the few times I need you to be there emotionally, you pull out. All it tells me is that you don't think it's important enough to stay awake for. Which means I am not important enough, that's the message I get." and that was the end of the convo.
We woke up this morning, and I was still kind of frustrated. I made coffee, and returned to bed reading a book. She stayed silent while drinking her coffee. she knows what's going on, she knows I feel frustrated, but she simply doesn't either make an opening, try to comfort me, or in anyway recognize that perhaps I might feel hurt, abandoned and frustrated.
After a while, she made a little chit-chat line about the ncie weather outside. I ignored it. It's her way of trying to put a spell on the awkward silence and unspoken dissent. I know it's not constructive, but I simply ignored her. She fell into silence again. She knows she should do something, but she doesn't. Too often I am the one soothing the atmosphere, waving away the 'unpleasant' and leave it unresolved in favor of reconciling, but I don't feel into pulling my own tooth anymore if you catch my drift.
She asked me to join her for the morning shower (I normally fire it up), and I simply said "no". My time for pulling out and distancing myself. Maybe it's revenge. Maybe it's just my (destructive) way of letting her feel how it is if someone pulls out, and abandons you on an emotional level.
I don't expect she'll call today, email or any of such. If she does, it will be something fluffy, hoping my reply will indicate that what happened is now 'behind us' and we can move on in ignorant bliss. And I'm sure she won't bring any of this up tonight or tomorrow. I've decide to stop all communication. It won't make our sitch any better, but she'll get the cold shoulder. I've reached breaking point.
Just when you think things are starting to get better, you realize it was only to make hitting rock bottom feel more painfull.
I was LD in my R and actually asked H to do what you are doing a few months ago. It gave my desire space to take root and grow to a point where I wanted to do something about it. It took less than a week. Once I got it going, I couldn't seem to turn it off, but that is another story.
I don't mind the sun sometime
The images it shows
I can taste you on my lips
And smell you in my clothes
Cinnamon and Sugar
And softly spoken lies
You never know just how you look
Through someone elses eyes
BHS-"Pepper"
