Quote: The amount of effort and energy it takes from me is huge. It takes so much mental strength to tiptoe yourself in a 'good' talk, to avoid all the landmines, to heep smiling, to keep being possitive while you get doom, negativity and abandonement thrown at you.
Wow, nicely stated.
Lou-Your words are wise and I always find myself reading posts where you have given advice. About the alcohol thing...it's never been a prob. H hardly EVER drinks...which is a blessing having grown up with an alcoholic father. We drink occaisionally and mostly when we are "celebrating" something.
Is it me or do you feel like you are the only one ever talking? I try so hard to get H to talk...I know there must be things that he is lacking, that I can change for him.
"There are two types of people -- those who come into a room and say, 'Well, here I am,' and those who come in and say, 'Ah, there you are.'"
Frederick Collins
I think I recall you saying you don't want to interfer with her meds (do I remember that correctly?). Well, let me say this as simply as I can....this may be one of those times you have to step in and be more forceful about her doing something about it. Med side-effects can be a vicious cycle....if she's sleeping a lot, doesn't feel she's emotionally available etc.....I can easily see where she might not feel very "motivated" either, and that I don't believe has anything really to do with you or her willingness to help with the R. I think that has a lot to do with the meds.
IMPO (take it FWIW)...I think you need to phone her Dr's. office, make an appointment for her to go in....and go with her. And by that, I mean go to the office and talk to her Dr. with her. If you don't think she's giving him a clear picture, then you make sure he has one. Afterall, those meds affect you both. Sure, she may be the one taking them...they may be helping a condition of hers....but the side-effects affect you both....and she may not be seeing what you see.
Are you hoping she's going to step up and take care of this on her own? If so, it's my guess because her motivation is affected....that she won't do it. This is one time (along with seeking a couples therapist) that I think you need to stand up and put your foot down.
I would hate to see a medication taking drastic tolls on your M when it doesn't have to. She may need you to take control in this situation. That doesn't mean you're being a bully or being controlling....in many ways, as far as the meds go, you are looking out for her best interests too.
mqo- I totally agree with GEL on this: it's time for you to intervene. And is she seeing a doctor who prescribes these meds In ADDITION to a talk therapist? As I said in your thread, it doesn't look like y'all are getting your money's worth from these/this doc.
Quote: I think I recall you saying you don't want to interfer with her meds (do I remember that correctly?). Well, let me say this as simply as I can....this may be one of those times you have to step in and be more forceful about her doing something about it.
Yes, she's on Depakote. I have also told her how to me, it appears she is over sedated. At the time she got these subscribed, she was having hard times with (private jointly owned) bussiness trouble going south, etc. She's long out of that now, but she never ever considered tapering off her meds a bit, lowering the dose to whatever level she needs. She's idee-fixed that she needs her current dose, and that she shouldn't be 'messing' with them.
I brought up that it might be an idea to try a baby step, go from 6 pills a day to maybe 5, talk it over with her MD and see where we end up. What it gave me is painfull looks as me proposing such in itself is an insane thing to do. Her stance is much like Nicolas Cage on his drinking in Leaving las Vegas. It's something I am not supposed to talk about. She doesn't talk about it, and she doesn't want to talk about it although she says it might well be a factor.
Quote: Med side-effects can be a vicious cycle....if she's sleeping a lot, doesn't feel she's emotionally available etc.....I can easily see where she might not feel very "motivated" either, and that I don't believe has anything really to do with you or her willingness to help with the R. I think that has a lot to do with the meds.
Exactly my thoughts. She once said: "But if I lower my meds, I might perhaps become moody, you might not like me anymore." I said something like "But it 'might' also 'perhaps' have a possitive effect. And if you go down one pill, and it has a bad effect, you can easily go back to 6, and be on your 'old' level again. To be honest, I am willing to risk you getting moodswings, which I think is unlikely, but anyway, I'll take that risk if there is a potential benificiary effect. I won't hold you accountable if you do get bad on me, as we would both commit to this being a risk, and accept whatever happens as a consequence. If it doesn't work, we might have a few rough moments, and we'll go back to where we are. No regrets, no looking back, whatever migth happen. And if it does work, all the more power to us". Her response was: "You don't know what I might be like, you might hate me. I don't think it's a good idea. I don't want to talk about it further"
The most weird thing is that her argument focusses not so much on how she might feel bad or fears moodswings, but how this might affect me, and how I might not love her anymore as a consequence.
She acts as if I want her to do a cold turkey (which I don't want, we're talking baby steps going from 6 (1500 mg) to 5 pills (1250mg), which to me doesn't sound like cold turkey), and as if she's a serious mental case who will go mental of we even take one pill out of the picture. She never was on meds (except thyroid suuplements) before her black period, she isn't someone with a long mental / psychiatrical record, so I have no idea why she sticks to keep her medication as if she is.
Quote: IMPO (take it FWIW)...I think you need to phone her Dr's. office, make an appointment for her to go in....and go with her. And by that, I mean go to the office and talk to her Dr. with her.
We had agreed I would go along on her next checkup with the MD. When it came to it, she made the appointment, didn't tell me (or in her words, 'forgot about it'), and that's it. I feel she doesn't want me in there, she doesn't want me to be a part of that. the only way to make that work would be if I would contact her MD myself, but I seriously think that's totally out of bounds and disrespectfull towards her. So, not much options left.
Quote: Afterall, those meds affect you both. Sure, she may be the one taking them...they may be helping a condition of hers....but the side-effects affect you both....and she may not be seeing what you see.
Dang! You made that so clear in words. I only wonder if I could bring it up this way, as yes, I fully agree that while she might be taking them, any side effects of those pills don't simply affect her alone, they affect us. Her pills are not just 'her concern'. They're my concern as well. I don't think I have any right to interfere with them, but I do feel I have the right to discuss it with her, and openly discuss how they might have an effect on her, and thus a bad effect on our R.
No one would frown upon a S addressing the other S if he/she were an alcoholic as being an alcoholic is really destructive in any R. I guess meds are a sensitive topic as while the destructive effect may be the same, we're not supposed to say to people that the meds they think they need might be a bad thing. We're not supposed to pile guilt onto something they consider necessary. This regardless of course if their beliefs are fictional or real. (ie, needing the meds)
Quote: Are you hoping she's going to step up and take care of this on her own? If so, it's my guess because her motivation is affected....that she won't do it. This is one time (along with seeking a couples therapist) that I think you need to stand up and put your foot down.
I don't think she will ever seek changes here. she doesn't want to change things as long as she can live with it. Her fear on making a change (eg, sex, meds, sleep, communication) is that while it might not be perfect now, making a change might make it even worse, and as long as 'we' can deal with it (which I guess means I haven't gone 100% bonkers yet and filed for D), why take the risk? For her, every improvement has the shadow of failure next to it.
Quote: She may need you to take control in this situation.
Oh boy. One of her rules in life: "I hate it when people make me do things". The only option I see is to not 'make her do it', but make sure she gets the point that if she doesn't take control (eg, takes some action in this), she'll see me leaving the R on am emotional level, possibly ending in me leaving the R *period* as I will no longer accept the status quo.
Actually, if you read my other posts, you'll have read how I have more or less reached that point already.
Quote: mqo- I totally agree with GEL on this: it's time for you to intervene. And is she seeing a doctor who prescribes these meds In ADDITION to a talk therapist? As I said in your thread, it doesn't look like y'all are getting your money's worth from these/this doc.
Yup. The MD she sees on a once every 2 months basis (basically to check blood levels and check for liver damage as that is a potential side effect), and the therapist weekly.
All this combined (therapy, meds, etc) costs us a good $1300 a month. A lot of money, but I have never ever complained about that. I wouldn't mind if it costed double that (tho that would be a real financial pain). I mind it's something that potentially makes things worse instead of better.
Re: darlingnicky Is it me or do you feel like you are the only one ever talking? I feel like I am doing 80% of the R conversations. My problems might be a little different. I say what I see thee problem is and then BB gives an excuse and names something she wants or can't do. It yes, but in our house.
That feeling like no progress is being made is common. I think about 90% of the long term posters experience it. I do remembed some women posters that seemed to be able to work out most of the R problems in a couple of months but they had cooperative and motivated H's.
About the list thing. Make a long list and a short list with simple things you want. Show H your "dream List but only give him the shor list. Also say you need only 10% 20% of the things on the list to be happier.
One book I read has several lists and because of the sheer number of items on each list, I thought I was never going to be good marriage material for any woman. Well, the book said that most people are good marriage material if you only meet 20% of the items on the many lists in the book. Here is a link The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work
Here is another link to more listsMarriage Builders� Forms and Questionnaires Click on the questionnaires on the left side of the screen. The first one is "Emotional Needs" Print out two sets and each one fill out what you want. Remember there are no right or wrong answers and I bet if some needs get a little better they will not be such a sore spot.
Good luck getting your H to fill his out. It might be tough for him to look at the questionnair without getting up tight or he might be worried he can't do some of the things. If you are like most people here, If you see someone really trying as opposed to saying they are trying, your hopes go way up.
I will have to admit my questionairs are not filled out. I still see them as test I would have a difficult time passing. I need to see them more like "what if I could have things my way and my SO would be happy too."
In other words kind of like an imaginary fishing trip. Where do you want to go, how long, what do you want to take along, what kind of fish are there, and how do you catch them?
I have read your posts...and did remember it was Depakote she was on.
Ok, gonna be my lovely blunt self here with ya k? She's your W, her meds are affecting your R. You DO have the right to interfere. Personally, I think you are placing too much assumption as to the "why" she didn't tell you about the Dr's appt. You are assuming she didn't want you there...did you ask her? If you didn't, don't assume it.
I believe you truly need to have some clear communications with her...I see you tiptoeing and that's not productive. I can certainly understand her trepidation about altering the doseage, that could be scary for her...she probably has valid fears that you won't like her suddenly if her moods change while you guys figure out her proper doseage. That's why you need to sit down and have a "no bull" conversation...a loving/supportive one....but you need to be assertive too "this needs to be done."
You getting involved in her mental/physical welfare when it's obvious there could be an outside source affecting her and your R isn't disrespectful....I repeat, it's not disrespectful. Would you let her remain over sedated by a prescription of valium or morphine? While it's true those two items are addictive and Depakote isn't....it's not much different....she's over-sedated and it's affecting her well-being and your R. It is not disrespectful to say "Honey, I don't like how this is obviously making you feel, I know you are worried about changing the doseage but I promise I'll be here to help you through this til we get it right."
I'm going to repeat what I said to you in my other post. The drugs are affecting her behavior, her mood, her motiviation.....she's not likely to do this on her own as you've said. So....right there's a boundary/consequence you can set. "In order to show me that you take me and our R seriously I'd like for "us" to go talk to your Dr. about adjusting your meds, I will be happy to make the appt. if you'd like".
Get to that doctor, man! I don't care if she invites you or not! Step up to the plate, mqo! You are her husband-- she needs you!!!
Double dito what GEL said. If you love this woman, then get involved with her health. She's probably too sedated to know WHAT'S going on. Is her shrink aware of this dosage?
Ok, gonna be my lovely blunt self here with ya k? Please. I do value your comments greatly.
Quote: Personally, I think you are placing too much assumption as to the "why" she didn't tell you about the Dr's appt. You are assuming she didn't want you there...did you ask her? If you didn't, don't assume it.
No. The "I forgot about it" was the reply I got when she arrived home late and explained she had an appointment, and I asked "Didn't we agree I would come along the next time?"
Now I could harp on questioning if she'd really forgot, or if that was just a convenient excuse for not having me there. Does it matter? Not really in my opinion. If she did, she's might not admit to that. If she really forgot about it, while she knows it was important to me, then she didn't find it important enough herself. Either way, it doesn't make a difference really if she did it on purpose or not. I simply told her that I didn't like not being there with her. That's the important message.
Quote: I see you tiptoeing and that's not productive.
Trust me, I have been less then tiptoeing at times. I have been angry, yelled. Calmly put down ultimatums and set boundaries. The reason for me to now pull out and tiptoe is self preservation. I do bad when I get angry or upset, so 'tiptoeing' is just as much protecting myself from getting upset.
My current 'firm' resolution is emotional withdrawal, and not letting anything get to me. will that 'work' or make things better for me? Well, for me personally, it has now given me some kind of calm, a sense of personal resolve. Will it improve the R? No idea. How long can I keep this up? No idea, time will tell.
Quote: That's why you need to sit down and have a "no bull" conversation...a loving/supportive one....but you need to be assertive too "this needs to be done."
This I agree with. Thanks for hammering it in. It's something I have long been ambivalent about. It's nice to hear people explicitly saying what you've been pondering if you should / should not, and to hear it from someone who's detached from the R and emotions.
Quote: I repeat, it's not disrespectful.
Yeah. I do have reservations here, but yes, I see how you're right. *hammer* *knock*
From what I know about Depakote, the initial dose is 3 pills (750mg), and then upped as fast and as strong untill the 'desired effect' is reached. Whatever that desired effect is. It's not uncommon for people to be on 2000mg or even as high as 4000mg. But those would truly be seriosu cases I guess.
then again, in one of the few talks we had about the issue, she argued how her 'depakote blood level' (which is determined by how much medicine pickup the person has) was 'optimal'. (She metnioned some 70ul or 'some' term liek that). Well, from what I know, there is no absolute 'optimum'. First of all, this is not an absolute science, not at all. Psychiatrist will readily admit to this. Every person will react differently to different doses. Some people will hardly feel an effect with say x pills, while others may get serious side effects by half that dose. Her reply was something to the effect that she had always been on this dose, and that it was a perfect dose. Add some circle reasoning to that ("How do you know a lower dose would be wrong?" "Because I feel good now" "How do you know you'd feel worse on a lower dose?" "Because I wouldn't feel good on a lower dose"), and a quick end to the discussion.
Quote: Double dito what GEL said. If you love this woman, then get involved with her health. She's probably too sedated to know WHAT'S going on. Is her shrink aware of this dosage?
Yeah, they and the MD exchange notes. But like always in the M world, I don't think either would interfere or comment on the other's 'work'. It would be like a butcher telling a baker how long to bake hsi bread. They're too professional for that. One is the expert in therapy, the other is the expert in medicine. No need to think either can do each other's job 'better' I guess.
Concerning the 'sedated' part. She isn't like drugged in that it effects her mental capacities. It's not like it incapacitates her abillities. But she is more sluggish, and tired a lot. She sleeps at least 8-9 hours a day, sometimes 10. In the weekends, she'll sometimes sleep for 12 hours and often takes an afternoon nap as well. Liek last sat, she was actually out of bed at 12pm, and tired by 8pm (and asleep by 9). That's 24-9...
Her explanation: "I simply don't have your energy". Which is enough for her, EOD.
I do value your comments greatly.