I'm also a good Catholic boy accustomed to denying myself. How do you think I have survived so long in my marriage? That good Catholic husband of yours needs to Take Care of His Wife. He needs to deny himself what he gets by withholding his love from you.
To my understanding, in the Catholic Church the family comes first. It's all about keeping families together, come high water or worse. If his training is causing him to shirk his responsibility toward you, then he needs to rethink his priorities.
Paul, whose daughter slept well last night because she said her prayers.
Quote: I want him to want me. How does one make another want them? I can't change his hormones. I can't change his persnickety personality. Neither can he.
This is why I found Lust for Life's experience so fascinating. She said her H has always been LD, but the experience of not being with her, of being on his own, made him decide to change.
Your H can behave like an HD person and he can also behave like an LD person, but which is he INSIDE? Even now, when he's initiating sexual contact, is he truly LD inside and is only doing it because you're pulling back?
Could your H, if sufficiently motivated make the decision to become HD, or is LfL's H an anomaly that needs to be written up in Science magazine right after we give him a medal from this board?
I feel the need to point something out here, it's too early to say that LFL's H has become HD. We have no actual way of knowing whether or not LFL's H is still truly LD on the inside, or if he's behaving HD our of a desire to please LFL and show her she's wanted/desired, as a decision.
Now if he keeps up the behavior over time he absolutely could become HD because his behavior could become learned and become a part of him with time. Remember though, we've all experienced highs/lows in our SR.
Now..if over a long period of time his behavior stays the same...I'd say it's probably safe to say he's converted to HD. But on this one it's still truly to early to tell...I'm pulling for her though. Sorry guys, not trying to be a downer...I really do hope he's making some permanent changes!!!
Lil, There was a time when my H behaved the same way, shortly after we started repairing this whole mess, but it was not permanent. I have no idea what will happen with LFL's H, so that is NOT my intention in writing that..to rain on her parade..just recounting my experience. He acted HD for a while, can't remember how long now. During that time, there were still hangups that he was working on, so I knew that he was a work in progress. It wasn't until our 3rd child was born that he ran completely out of steam and I did too. If I could give one piece of advice to LFL it would be this: Praise his successes and shut your mouth. Let him evolve at his own pace.
I think I set myself back a LOT with my harping. I am not a patient person, by nature, and had a helluva time waiting years for his process to play out. If I would have handled it differently, I firmly believe that I would be in a drastically different M today.
So, iow, he acted like this but it was not a permanent change. He sortof went back and forth for a while and I was not patient enough to deal with this. I wanted things FIXED, not merely "tons better". This was a huge error on my part. Hindsight, eh.
So I basically harped his HDness right outta him by insisting on continual improvement. I was not patient during the backslides and not willing to gently draw his awkwardness out of him--I wanted MY needs met...wanted a man to want ME.
Even now, he shows his desire much more readily but is still guarded. I think that I will have to walk out the door to get the kind of blatant sign that I've been looking for all these years. This saddens me, but it also demonstrates to me that I'm wanting him to be something totally opposite of what he is. If he is THIS resistent, then there is a message in there for me: Back off, lady--I'm not that type of guy.
GEL asked a question the other day that is haunting me: What if this is the way he is, can you live with that?
It's hard to give feedback to you lovely women on this board when I truly believe my M is an anomoly of sorts (thanks, Lil) .
Most of you have not been through a separation. That experience will either kill the M for good and give birth to a new, better M. Lucky for us, it was the latter.
Neither my H nor myself believe we would be anywhere near the progress we have had of late if that separation did not occur. Does that mean you have to separate to make progress? No, I hope not. Maybe yes for some, though. Each situation is different.
I hope that my postings at least give you all something hopeful to focus on if it does come to separation for any of you. Things can improve SO MUCH when you remove yourself from the monotony of daily life as a M couple. It gives you new perspective that you just cannot get any other way.
My H and I are early into this reconciliation so anything can still happen. However, our attitudes are COMPLETELY different than they were 10 years ago, one year ago, one month ago. We are truly different people.
Getting back to LD/HD, Lil, you mentioned being one or the other INSIDE. I guess that is accurate but it implies that it is almost impossible to change. That it is just part of who you are.
If that is the case, than the only way to "attain" a HD H or W is for THAT PERSON to change themselves, no? They need to see themselves in a whole new way in order to see you and the M in a whole new way. I think I'm on to something.
Of course, people don't write books on that because it makes you feel powerless to change your S. Who wants to buy that book.
I need to think this through more. There certainly must be ways to achieve the M both people want without resorting to drastic measures like separation. Help me out hear people...! What am I going to do if and when things start to slip again in my M? Threaten to leave? Actually leave? Not a great way to get through a M. I'm going off an a bad tangent but that's what I do, overanalyze
I'm just curious...because I've noticed that sooo many men I've been around (in particular) are really big on "trust"...have you ever approached your H the way I did mine, and the way I've suggested to Karen? You know, something along the lines of "I just don't trust that you will do what I've asked...because of xyz". Of course phrasing it so it fits truthfully into something meaningful to the two of you. Something that you've needed, that he's said he would do...but hasn't followed-through on and it's let you down.
Actually no you don't have to go that far now if things should start backsliding. What you would have to do though is take a step back (calmly) and communicate clearly with him again and let him know...things are slipping back in that direction again (should they do that).
I mean....who would want to go through twice what you two have just been through. I would think that reminding your H that "we're heading that diretion again, lets nip this in the bud now" might be enough....should that happen. Which, I hope it won't.
I'd like to make a comment on trust. Trust can make you lazy in a M. That's my experience. If you TRUST the person will not leave, if you TRUST that the personal will put up with all BS, etc, the whole idea of trust as a positive in a M can quickly turn to a negative. I was not surprised, GEL, to hear you say your H made improvements when you told him you did not trust that he would. I think people work harder on R when the trust needs to be built. I can certainly relate to that with my H leaving and my R with OM. Both of us have huge trust issues but that is fueling the fire to rebuild. In that sense, lack of trust can be a good thing to a M.
With good reason, too. He's let me down on many of his promises.
I have not brought it up in a long time. He said (last week) that I do not trust him to hold up his end of the bargain. He is absolutely correct.
Here is my true feelings: The minute I re-invest myself emotionally in this marriage, he will sink back into his former behavior.
He said, in that same conversation, that me turning him down makes him horny for me. That he is inspired by the challenge. I said, Well then you can understand my hopeless feelings concerning our situation. If the only way you can sustain any desire is when I shut down, then we will never have a reciprocal M, where we both desire each other. That comment was met with silence.
Quote: Most of you have not been through a separation. That experience will either kill the M for good and give birth to a new, better M. Lucky for us, it was the latter.
This may, in fact, be what it takes. Our other possible "success" story (i.e., LD becomes HD) is csw, who we hope is still making progress. His W all but moved out. He saw that she was capable of leaving him for another man. It jump-started his motivation to change.
Maybe it takes something that drastic.
Regarding trust-- I agree that the flip side of trust is taking someone for granted. I think we need more variations of the word "trust," kind of like the idea that Eskimos have lots of words for snow.
There's the trust where you know the person will not intentionally do you physical or emotional harm.
There's the trust where if they say they'll take the dog to the vet and make the house payment, you know they will.
There's the trust where you know they will tell you the truth-- so if they DON'T take the dog to the vet or make the house payment, at least they'll tell you. You won't just find a letter from the bank or a sicker dog a week after the task was supposed to be done.
There are probably more variations... I had a friend once about whom I used to say, "You would trust him with your life, but you wouldn't trust him to return a library book on time."
I was addressing the trust thing when I said that in spite of being abusive, ZBube's W's disregard of his desire not to have more animals showed that she trusted him. I was referring to the first type of trust. She knew he would not shoot her or the dogs. That's important. For example, Chrissy is sometimes physically afraid of her H-- if he said don't bring home something-or-other, she might put herself in danger if she defied him.
OTOH this kind of "I have you in my hip pocket and you can never surprise me" kind of trust is right next to taking someone for granted.
Honey, please try not to blame yourself too much. Being Honey is not an inherently destructive thing. I can't believe that it would have been better to hide who you are to save him from you. You're not poison.
. 