If you don't mind. I would like to jump in a bit...
Ya know Bud, I say I'm the caregiver in this R, but I believe I'm wrong. There's a difference between being responsible and being the decision maker and being the caregiver isn't there? *light bulb* How could I have missed this all these years? H is a CAREGIVER!! D*mn. I've totally blown off his need to care for me by being so independent.
This is a major realization! It turned on a light bulb for me too. My wife, like you, didn't allow the caregiver role. The dynamic is very tricky, but you are in a good place because you have realized it's there. So yes, I know you feel guilty for getting nothing done. I know you want to let him get all the sleep he needs, but you have to let a little crack in your armour show. Please be careful. You'll want to resent it. You'll want to be mad because you allowed yourself to not be strong. Don't. True love means you can be weak for the one you love too. H is the only one you will allow to see that. It's a special connection between the two of you. Keep that in your heart.
Could you think on something if you get time and see if you have any ideas? He said he "misses me", which means he wants to ML. But, I think the break is good for us in a way. When we ML and have physical intimacy, our verbal communication level goes way down. He feels very close to me, but that's not what makes me feel closer to him. I'd think it would mean we'd talk more if he felt closer, but it doesn't. His need for intimacy and closeness is met, but it decreases the thing that most makes me feel intimate and close. Now, I'm not one to withhold at all because PT is huge on my list. It might be weird for a woman, but sex doesnt = love to me. It equals physical pleasure. Words and sharing thoughts and feelings = love to me. And I'm sure a big part of it is that in order to truly realize the intimate connection in ML, I need the words and sharing first, then I feel close enough to get beyond the merely physical in bed.
That's not weird for a woman. It's typical. I understand. You and H have a cart and horse problem. My wife and I too. Worse still, if you let him put his horse first, you don't get what you want in return. Can you share this with him somehow? Can you say "Let's make passionate love. I want that with you. When we are done, I want you to hold me and talk to me about everything. I want to stay up half the night ML'ing and then talking. If you do this for me, then maybe we'll stay up the other half of the night ML'ing again " I don't know. Use your own words or don't use words, but use actions if that's better. He doesn't truly know this is going on. You need to find a way to let him know.
BigAL! HI! No, I don't mind at all. In fact I'm honored that you travelled over to help!
you have to let a little crack in your armour show
You'll want to be mad because you allowed yourself to not be strong.
True love means you can be weak for the one you love too. H is the only one you will allow to see that
Whoah. You've got me pegged! But it's SCARY to be weak! I don't want to depend on someone else to take care of me because they always let me down when I really need them. Yep.. that's me. You're right though, absolutely. And that's the special connection that is missing between us, but the thing I long for. I long for security when I'm weak. I guess I'll have to allow myself to be weak in order to see if H is gonna catch me. I know that will be a major change for me, but I'll be kind and do it slowly for both our sakes. There's another part of this too. I go so far as to convince myself that he resents it when I'm weak. I have a knee that locks up from time to time. It just locks bent and is very painful. The last time it happened we were S. I called him and he was hateful, pointing out that he needed to get up early, etc, but would come and take care of the kids if I wanted him to. Bear in mind that I couldnt walk! D11 had to get my crutches out of the attic. We managed. But, the thing is... H called back after he dealt with his frustration (and at the time he was battling deep depression), and said "I'm coming over to take care of you". I was so stubborn that I refused his help and added it to the list of ways in which he doesn't care about me or love me. I realize I did this last Nov when my knee went out. I was so frustrated to be stuck on the couch that I was irritating him. I used his irritation to say "see, I can't even be hurt without him being irritated and tense with me" I totally choose to mis-read his intention in order to build up that I need to be strong because I can't depend on anyone. Then if I'm strong enough, I won't have to fear depending on anyone else and getting hurt. In HS I broke up with a guy that I was dating. On the back of his senior picture he gave to me, he wrote "You're a little bit of everything beautiful. I wish you luck in your quest for independence and to never depend on anyone else for happiness" I still have that picture.. one of the few I've kept. I memorized it because I used to think it was complimentary and I was proud someone thought I was beautiful and independent.. if only I'd have read it for what it was! Thanks BigAL. Maybe this time it'll sink in.
That's not weird for a woman Oh good.. I'm still a girl! I'll have to think about how to ask him for that. Our sex drives are very compatible, so I don't see me withholding to get the words. I have asked him to talk during though.. LOL. hmmmm... maybe if I talked and shared with him heartfelt things after, he'd be more likely to open up to me? Nothing deep.. sure not gonna discuss our R or anything like that. But maybe if I share my feelings, he'll share his. I'm timid about doing that unless it's a two way street, but maybe someone needs to open the door. Like I could share something intimate while we're cuddling after, and maybe when it becomes a normal thing for us, he'll start sharing his thoughts and feelings too. Here again, I'm probably a big part of why we're not meeting this need of mine.
He knows he doesn't open up, but I'm not sure I've made it safe enough for him to do that, or acted on trying to encourage that. I've said it.. told him, but that's not getting it done!
Reading the 5LL is on our list of things to do, but in the meantime, I'll let him baby me and make sure I express my appreciation. Does that mean he's a WOA man?
Usually the idea is that someone shows you love in the language they want love to be shown to them. So in this case he's showing you Acts of Service. But Anna made a good point not too long ago which fits with what you're thinking; someone may well show love as AOS in order to get WOA.
Could you think on something if you get time and see if you have any ideas?
Heh. I'm in a bit of a mood tonight, so brace yourself a bit 'cause you're about to get both barrels. After you read this you may think I'm in a randy mood, but it's more like the great philosopher Tom Cruise once said..."Sometimes, you just gotta say WTF."
Okay, here goes. With one disclaimer: you will not at all hurt my feelings if you don't want to take any advice I ever offer, especially this. Okay, now here goes, really. The only thing a man likes more than sex is feeling sexually desirable. So over the course of the next few weeks, seduce him a handful of times. I'm not talking about over the top seduction; no need for leather and lots of mirrors. More like bedroom eyes, touching your face, caressing his arm, changing into something low-cut, etc. Probably you don't need any advice from me! Move slowly, and when he starts to respond, ask him in a teasing way to tell you the things you want to hear, whatever they might be. "Do you love me?" "Am I lovely?" "How was your day?" And make him give you a decent answer. If he doesn't, back off a little. Not so much he feels threatened, just enough to make it clear it's going to take longer to get to what he wants unless he starts giving you what you want.
With a little luck, he'll start to see that giving intimacy the way you want it is as important as receiving intimacy the way he wants it. Hopefully it won't become just a way for him to try to get sex. But I think if he gets used to it, he won't feel threatened by opening up and talking. And that'll make both of you feel more intimate and giving without the crutch of a little trickery. The goal would be for him to come up to you some day after work, walk up behind you, put his arms around you, and say in a sexy voice, "I almost wrote a check on your account today...but I didn't!" Then you could say, "Oooh, that makes me tingly!" You don't want to merely trade sex for talk, you want to build intimacy by being a little vulnerable and appealing to his strength.
Does that make any sense?
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
I'm only going to say this because I hope you'll get the spirit in which it's meant. "What are you smokin'?" hehe
"I almost wrote a check on your account today...but I didn't!" Then you could say, "Oooh, that makes me tingly!" OMG.. this is gonna keep me doubled over in laughter ever time I think of it! I have to give H credit. He's very good at expressing his feelings for me. I couldn't ask for more in that way. He has a huge supply of pet names for me and often shares loving feelings, says how special I am, is sure to compliment me on my looks and lets me know that he desires me. No prob in that area. Used to be, but since he said ILYBINILWY and went through that period of time when he didn't have a lot of positive feelings for me he seems to relish them now. That and he knows he can charm me into bed with him. Yes, I do see what you're saying. I know something specifically that would get him to share more if I wanted to show him that I'll meet his needs if he meets mine.
But the problem is I think the things I'd like him to share are things like your wife has been sharing with you lately. Not sure breaking out the thongs are gonna get that convo started When I typed the post above I was thinking about general sharing of how he's feeling and that's going to have be the first step. It might be easier to get there than I think because not long ago, he was doing that, but I resented it because I wanted to see him taking action towards getting a new job and being responsible (Gawd, I can be such a demanding b*tch) I think though that he has so much inside him that he has to deal with. I worry about that and want to be here for him, but I'm not sure he'll ever let me in that deep. He is going through SO much right now. I tend to underestimate (especially on here), how much he's struggling with his depression (because I've been blaming him for his behavior and just want him to play nice). I think you're right that I could encourage and be successful to get him to talk more.
He's a caretaker, yes, but he's also expressed a need for me to take care of him that way too. Today I let him baby me. I feel like crap. I've went from the couch, to the bed, to the computer, gotten up randomly to do a few things and check on the kids. I can tell it's been a hairy day for him. S2 is sick too, so he's worrying about us. S5 and D11 are healthy as horses and climbing the walls because we've only been out of the house for a few hours since friday. H was positively about to jump out of his skin this afternoon. I asked him what was bothering him and he said basically:
"nothing, I'm just trying to take care of you and the kids" "I have a lot of nervous energy, I'm eating everything in sight (he's worried about his weight.. he's put on 20 lbs and it's starting to show), my medicine is making me shake again, the braves won't hurry up and win this game, Ty is driving me nuts because he's not listening and we havent been out of the house"
Add to this that I know he forgot yesterday was his mother's 60th bday and he didnt call her or anything. He's been at odds with his parents the last months and hasnt talked to them in a few weeks. He finally called today and left a message for her. My mom called and talked to him while I was napping, but his Mom hasnt called him back. He made a flippant comment about it, but I'd like for him to share with me how he feels. Why? He's distancing himself from his family and I don't see an end in sight. He keeps saying he's being stubborn and the phone lines and road go both ways. They're being stubborn too. He had a huge blow-up with them three months ago and although they've talked since, the blow-up has never been mentioned and the problems have never been worked out. They are confirming everything he's ever thought. That they love his brother more, that he's not important to them, and that they only show him any attention when it's convenient for them. I want to be here for him, but I don't know how. He has lots and lots of issues that he keeps bottled inside of him. He releases the pain and hurt by getting tense and irritable. He rarely has the comfort of knowing that someone understands because he won't open up. He says bits and pieces to me like, "I'm a failure", "I'm driving myself crazy wanting to find another job", "I hate what I've put you and the kids through and I know I need to change, but it's hard" "I get afraid when I think I'm always going to need my medication and fight this depression" "I guess I know how my parents feel because they haven't even tried to call"
He admits that he's on an island at times. He doesnt want to share because he feels weak, guilty and afraid. When we ML he says it makes him feel close to me and stronger because he doesnt feel so alone. If we're swimming along on the surface, he still keeps all of that bottled up and then he's REALLY reluctant to share anything other than what he thinks I want to hear because we're happy and he doesn't want to bring us down. Does this make sense? I can go along like everything is fine and act as if... he'd go with the flow, but underneath he might be miserable. That's the way we handled our life after the divorce. On the surface things were FABULOUS. Under the surface, he was falling apart and I couldnt see it. That's what got us here. I hate to play a part in creating that "happy family" mirage again. And yet, I'd like to jump back in and do that so he can relax and be happy on the surface again saying "I'm well fed, well f*cked, and well loved..the wife's happy, the kids are happy, what more could a man ask for?"" Pretty crude, but it I think it sums up his expectations of his life.. then a bump in the road comes and the mirage disappears.
I want for H what he wants for me. For him to feel loved and secure no matter what. If I ever mention leaving him again, then I should probably be shot, huh?
Piglet... little suggestion re: the ice cream. I think he was just wanting to please you. Even if he wasn't, this is a good scenario to act "as-if" you are confident he was just trying to please you.
Knowing he does stuff like this, if you don't want something he offers, instead of "rejecting" his offer (even if it's perfectly reasonable to not want ice cream), how about giving him an alternative to his offer. Say "Hmm... not hungry for ice cream, but I'm so thirsty. Would you buy me a water?" Then he still is giving you a gift and feels good for that, but you don't have to choke back ice cream. These days I'm really careful not to "reject" any offers from H. Find a way for him to feel useful?
Thanks for the suggestion Anna! I've never thought of giving him an alternative. I ate the whole dang 22 grams of fat and thanked him shamefully..lol. Inside I was thinking "WTF.. I said I didnt want anything and now I'm obligated to eat it so his feelings aren't hurt." You're suggestion would have made both of us happy!
" I don't know. Use your own words or don't use words, but use actions if that's better. He doesn't truly know this is going on. You need to find a way to let him know.
Move slowly, and when he starts to respond, ask him in a teasing way to tell you the things you want to hear, whatever they might be. "Do you love me?" "Am I lovely?" "How was your day?" And make him give you a decent answer. If he doesn't, back off a little. Not so much he feels threatened, just enough to make it clear it's going to take longer to get to what he wants unless he starts giving you what you want.
When I typed the post above I was thinking about general sharing of how he's feeling and that's going to have be the first step. It might be easier to get there than I think because not long ago, he was doing that, but I resented it because I wanted to see him taking action towards getting a new job and being responsible (Gawd, I can be such a demanding b*tch) I think though that he has so much inside him that he has to deal with. I worry about that and want to be here for him, but I'm not sure he'll ever let me in that deep. He is going through SO much right now. I tend to underestimate (especially on here), how much he's struggling with his depression (because I've been blaming him for his behavior and just want him to play nice). I think you're right that I could encourage and be successful to get him to talk more.