You can whine here anytime! It's free webspace. I just happened to sign my name to this corner of marital woes. My door is always open. C'mon in!
I have a lot of speculation on this, but I'll cut to what I think you might gain the most in thinking about.
Because I'm finding myself getting sucked back into "have to be there for her when she falls so nothing really bad happens" mode. And I think it was better when I was in "not responsible for her health" mode. Disclaimer: "Everything I say is applicable to me. It's easier to address these things with others than deal with it in my life"
Did you write this sentence intending for me to <insert here> from my sitch and see the light? What are we doing BB in rescuing these people from themselves? How can we turn the tide, be lovingly supportive and detached from fixing their problems for them? How can we draw a line and leave them to accept responsibility for their life and actions? My H messes up, I fix it, and I even go so far as to vent the anger he feels at himself for failing!
Your W sees the changes in you. They are real. Can you GAL and stop rescuing her from the sitch she's created? Just one example for what it's worth. When she was going through withdrawals, you were compassionate, loving, caring supportive.. everything you could be to help her. What if you had changed one thing about that sitch? What if you had not slept on that mattress downstairs? Was that over the line of what you should have done? She was not in medical danger. And yes, it kept her from disturbing the children. But what if you went upstairs and took care of yourself, letting her know that you're there if she needs you? What if you weren't waiting by for her every need? Would she have woke up and needed you in the night. Been afraid without you in just the next room? Would those feelings have been bad, or good for your sitch? She probably would've blamed you for not being there for her. But then, what if you suggested that OM be there for her? That he come and get her to stay at his place so that he could help her through it? She's choosing him to fill that need in her life.. she's as much as said that. Why can't he "be all he can be" for her no matter what she's going through? I realize that's extreme and not realistic.
You were there for her in a BIG way. It might just turn the tide in your R. But if it doesn't, will you be there for her in the same way again? What is the diff between a R with you because she needs you, vs. a R with OM because he's a warrior and her soul mate? He heals her? Or, she heals herself and bucks up for him? He motivates her to take care of her health to be with him. What if.. speculating... and going to a chapter in DR. You agreed about her health and that she gets strong to see OM and that you can't do anything for her? What if you agreed that your R might be making her sick.. that you hate to see her do that to herself and are eager for her to start a painfree life on her own? Would it hurt to do that, but let her know that you want to work things out, but are going to give her space to take care of herself, and move on if she needs to? Get some real estate flyers. Leave the stuff laying around where she can see it, but don't mention it. Do you remember that story in DR?
What if you weren't assisting her health to get her on her feet for him? She might find that she can't do it without you and for him. What if you stopped taking care of everything so she can rest between visits with him? What if you truly dropped the rope? Would she be able to be responsible for her life and her children, and maintain the strength to buck up for him? If he heals her.. she should be strong coming back home from time with him.. not the other way around! Can you help to reverse that in some way?
Just thoughts. That portion of DR really struck me. Agreeing with them and then start GAL and ignoring the pull to rescue.
Stop in anytime.. I think typing this might help me come up with a strategy for dropping the rope with H. Might be something drastic!
Big hugs.. where is our weekend of relaxation? Are you hiking? If not, why? Are you going to let her plans affect your need to get away and enjoy the fresh air this weekend? Good luck!!
Came back to say that I'm not suggesting that you tell you're W she should move out or anything of the sort. And to acknowledge that the last couple of weeks have helped her see you in a different light and feel comfortable with you. She sees all of that, but still doesn't have to deal with reality. So, I was just suggesting that you accept her reality, and stop trying to ONLY show her that things can be great with you and that you've changed, but also let her see how her "reality" is flawed by accepting it and allowing her to deal with the outcome when she moves forward with what she says she wants.
She gets to push you away and jerk you around with her plans with OM and thoughts of how things will be, but never has to deal with the consequences of them. Can you ease her that way just enough to give her a taste of what she is saying she wants to do?
Did I say holiday? I'm taking a break from non-holiday while the kids eat lunch. I asked myself what I want to be doing this weekend. Looking around, I decided what I want to be doing is cleaning! I have a major dust aversion and the bunnies are about to take the house away. I always feel better when it's clean, so I thought I'd put my energies to getting that accomplished so I can sit back and enjoy the clean. We have an area carpet over carpet in our living room. It just absorbs dust and stuff. I put it there while I was waiting to decide on new carpet or wood floors. Then March came and the bomb dropped. I've done nothing towards getting new floor covering. The carpet is reasonably new, but too deep a pile to be practical for the traffic it gets. Anyway.. H calls these journeys to clean and organized "entering the world of Sheila". I tend to get a spur of the moment urge to take on a project and then want everyone to join in. Good thing he's a neat freak! So, I pulled up the area carpet, and was going to vacuum the carpet, then thought, "what the heck" it really needs steam cleaned. Was cleaning out the magazine rack and turned around to S2's handywork. Black permanent marker on the carpet!!! AAAAACK!!!! So, now I'm locked in on the cleaning adventure here. No turning back now.
Not sure why I always have to be "doing" something.. improving something. It's a curse. I shoulda stuck with laying in bed and watching movies!
Did you write this sentence intending for me to <insert here> from my sitch and see the light?
Heh. Nope. I was definitely too stuck in my own drama for that!
If he heals her.. she should be strong coming back home from time with him.. not the other way around!
Good point. Why didn't I think of that?
As for the rest, you're right. There's gotta be some way of dropping the rope more than I have. Maybe not right now but within a week or two. I mean, right now you honestly would not believe the stuff I'm doing. She seems to be past the withdrawal phase but has been dealing with migraines for two or three days. My PMA suffered some on those days because I was feeling like it just wasn't worth it. I had to get back to the point where I realize I'm doing so much because I want to, not because I'm expecting a result. I didn't go into it expecting a result, there just came a point where it seemed it should be a natural consequence of what I was doing. I had to let go of that again.
But the current state of affairs is an unworkable long term solution. As time goes by I need to make that more and more clear.
Can you ease her that way just enough to give her a taste of what she is saying she wants to do?
I hope so. The larger the taste the better, far as I'm concerned. If Om turns out to be a basket case, I fail to see how that's my problem. (Though strangely enough I do feel like it's my problem to some extent. Ick.)
Big hugs.. where is our weekend of relaxation? Are you hiking? If not, why? Are you going to let her plans affect your need to get away and enjoy the fresh air this weekend?
Unfortunately it looks that way. Last night she figured on waking up feeling good and getting out and doing a few things. That would leave me with some time tomorrow (Sunday). But instead she didn't sleep much and got out of bed about 1:00 with a migraine. So we'll see. At least I managed to get my run in. And I slept late. And I haven't read much but I have been watching some football. So in between running food and other items down to W when she's downstairs, and going down to bring things up for her when she's upstairs, I've been pretty relaxed!
I have a lot of speculation on this, but ...
It's a weekend of relaxation, let's have the speculation! For entertainment purposes only, of course. Be creative, go wild!
But mostly, enjoy your own weekend of relaxation and mad cleaning.
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
Had an unexpected R talk with H last night. I'm not sure that we're going to put this all back together. If we do, I think we might live the rest of our lives as less than happy He says I need time, but I'm not sure. I know love isnt a feeling, but there are so many things that make a M. I'm very very tired of this struggle. And it's not that H doesn't love me the way he should or any of the other things. It's just this wall that's built around my heart. I've changed. He said that he's driving himself batty to prove that he loves me. That isn't right either. I asked for a break, a time out a few weeks ago and he agreed. Well, we didnt take that time out really. I've been thinking if H would just change a few things I'd feel differently. But like I've said before, it's not fair to expect that and for me to keep raising the bar. I care for him, I love him (as a verb), I enjoy our physical relationship. But trust isnt there. I dont know how it will ever be there again. He was talking to someone last night at the football game.. a guy we know just through our D11 doing things with his daughter. They seem like a lovely family and I like him and his wife. You'd think they would be people we'd have a friendship with.. a lot in common, kids the same age, same interests, church, golf, etc. But I left the game to take the boys to burger king (before they died wanting french fries!). When we came back I walked up and saw H talking to G and it stopped me cold. My first thought was "I wonder what kind of BS he's telling G". This is my H Im talking about!! WTF! How can I be with someone and have that kind of distrust in me? There's a long history of this.. I've always been leary of H and I sharing friendships because he is dishonest. Sooner or later people always see through his BS and I don't want to be a part of that. We talked for a little bit about that and he said he's changed. That he doesn't do that anymore. But still, it really bothers me that I feel the way I do. He's almost ruined a few friendships for me with his lying.. one was with my dearest GF. He borrowed money from her husband (I had no clue!) and never paid him back. Was a couple of years before I even knew that.. she finally told me. And the whole time, I never knew why they turned down invitations to do things together as a couple. Fear and distrust. I keep thinking that I can deal with me.. I know what that means. I wake up knowing who I am, but not who H is. I fear what he'll do next that will hurt. I don't want to live that way, but I don't know how to trust after all the things that have happened between us. That wall around my heart is solid.. so solid that it's not just H that I don't want to let in. It's basically a "I just want to be left alone to live my life" feeling/attitude. I was thinking it was because I can't control what he does and fear what he'll do.. a control issue that I have to deal with. But it's so much more than that. I can give up controlling him, but maybe that control was the only hope I had for our R. I don't trust that he'll make good decisions for us... he's still demonstrating that he won't. Add that to the fact that he didn't commit to MC and work towards the goals we set and I still don't have much to place my trust in.
Ughhhh... H can do things that make me feel loved and happy and he has. But then, anyone can do those things and it doesn't mean I want to spend the rest of my life with them. Enjoying his company and caring for him is friendship stuff.. not M stuff.
Have to think on this for awhile. And oh yeah, he hates me journalling on here. It's somehow because I do that my feelings are not what they should be right now. right.
Hey Piglet, my thread is in the infidelity forum, but I guess you could say that I am actually piecing too. I know what you mean about the wall around your heart. It's tough to take that down....for me the desire to take it down isn't even there most days. I'll let my guard down for a while and then I'll start thinking about something he did or said that made me hurt or angry. Then I get mad at myself for letting my guard down. It is all about trust, isn't it?
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
I can see how your trust will take so long to rebuild. Your H made so many bad choices that it must be hard to let them go. And let go of the fear that he will continue to make them.
Since you can't control him, it's time to take that energy and focus it back on yourself. Do some things without H, so that you aren't as vulnerable to these thoughts and fears. Make your efforts towards Piglet, and things may shift back into an easier groove.
You're doing so well, and it's just easy to get caught up in worrying about the future. Trust will come with time, once you stop stressing yourself out. But it's a process and you should be gentle with yourself throughout.
Thanks for the words of encouragement! I'm often over in the infidelity forum learning things from you two. The sharing that goes on here makes me feel un-alone, and that's worth a million right now.
H has taken the kids to church so I have some time alone. He's being passively punishing this morning, but at least I know what he's doing so I can deflect the darts! His turn to get up with the kids and he wouldn't - which was OK, I got up and fixed bfast and had a screaming headache. He was up 10 mins later badgering me about why Im in such a bad mood. Trying to re-open the convo as an argument. I can't do it. I don't even feel the need to argue and place blame for where I am right now. It's just a fact. He said last night "I know you're afraid, and I'm afraid too". But the thing is.. I'm not afraid of being alone. I'm not really afraid of what he might do. And I got to that place by building that wall. I've stopped worrying about whether he's working with OW or talking to her totally. I did that by just not caring.. it was my only choice. Deal with the pain I was feeling, or let him go in a way that it doesn't matter what he's doing or who he's with. Does that make sense? He wants to be defensive about this, but I'm not seeing it as his fault. It was his choice to deal with the sitch the way he did. He hasn't found another job for whatever reasons.. not a good one to take, didn't look soon or hard enough.. whatever. But the fact still remains that I had to detach so far from caring about what he's doing that I don't care.
He accused me of being mad at him because of choices he's made at church. I was disappointed at how he made the choices and didn't include me. It was just more of him doing what he wants and not thinking of what we'd discussed was good for our M. It's been a big part of our MC (christian counseling) to define our purpose together as a couple. But, H just blew off all the time and discussion we put into that. And I'm mentioning this because in the past, I would've re-grouped and went along with what he decided to keep the peace.. fix the sitch. But I don't have it right now. He didnt go to the concert with his youth this week.. has offered to give up teaching, do whatever we need to be doing as a couple, but my heart isnt in it. I dont care. I told him whatever he does is fine.. I'm disappointed that we didnt stick to the decisions we made together (he refused to even share with me what he decided to do and let our pastor let me in on it). But now, I'm not interested in finding a purpose with him. I'm doing my own thing without him. So, we're still doing what we were doing that got us where we are. And, I don't feel a need to change any of that. I don't feel like I want to be a couple with him, or that it's important to me anymore.
My feelings for him lately have been like a dear friend. I feel like I'm pretending when I try to give more than that. He asked me last night if I hate him. I don't. That scares me. I've heard that if you feel hatred towards someone, or anger that you're still emotionally invested in them. Well, I dont feel hatred and anger. Not that anger that gets you where you live anyway. It's the kind of anger like when a co-worker does something that screws up the day and you get over it in a few minutes and let it go. You ignore it because it doesn't impact your life at all. What H does, impacts our life. But I'm in a place where it just impacts his life because I'm detaching from the "our life" mentality to cope. I don't see an "our life" that we couldnt maintain apart. Well, living together, raising the kids, sex, etc. But not an emotional "our life"..connected and committed towards the same goals.
I'm hoping this is a funk I'm in. I've been in a lot of funks lately. But Im afraid that it's because I'm fighting the truth. The truth that I just don't see myself continuing this with him. Heck, I'm not even emotional enough about this to ask him to do anything right now.. move out.. etc. He asked what I want, and I asked what he wants. He said I promised to give it until Jan, and I said OK. I'll give it until Jan if that's what makes you happy. He brought up a lot of stuff that he says contradicts what I'm saying. He's right of course.. my actions have contradicted my feelings. He said "how can we ML, and then you say you don't have the feelings you should. How can we cuddle up and take a nap together, share a beautiful day, and then the next you want to let us go?" Dunno about that.. except it was a beautiful day. A beautiful day with someone I care about and feel close to because we've shared so much. But if he could be in my brain he'd know how many times I've made myself respond the way I think I should. How many times I've looked at the love in his eyes and wished I could get that back for him. How many times I've seen his feelings and thought they are just needy feelings because he's afraid to be alone, and not feelings that he'll do the right things for us and our family because he's committed to our well-being above all else. See, that's where I am. If I love someone, my choices reflect that. I choose not to do things to hurt them and destroy their trust. I choose not to put us in a financial bind, or make decisions behind their back. I choose to discuss what we're doing at church as a couple and make a way for both of us to contribute and be happy. I've made most of my life choices based on that.. and the ones that I didn't, turned out badly. The ones where I didnt consider H and my family were painful, so I learned to always consider them and what's best for all of us. He doesn't have that, and that's something that has to be a two way street. You don't build a relationship and a family on ILY's, flowers, promises, cuddling together in bed, ML, recreational time. You build a family on commitment to consider them in what you do regardless if it's what you selfishly want to do... that is a bigger institution than the individual. It doesn't always breed happiness and loving feelings, but it does build trust and a foundation that's solid.
Anyway, I don't have any answers. Don't know where this is going. H asked if I'm going to stop working on our R. ???? How do you work on an R with someone you don't think is committed in the right ways, especially when your level of commitment is rock bottom? I've bowed out of MC because he just isn't doing what we agree to do in the sessions.. mutual agreement and they don't stick for a week. He's told the counselor that he'll keep coming individually to see if he can get on track and start applying what we've learned in counseling. I've no doubt that tommorow he won't go to his session. He doesnt seem committed to apply it.. he just seems committed to do the sessions until I've let go of the past and we can get back to normal. Checking off a block of must do's to get Sheila happy again Too sad. It's not about happiness. It's about trust, hope and commitment.. common goals and understanding/agreeing about the life we're building together. Not sure we can get there from here. He doesn't seem worried about that stuff. He seems like he's living his life from day to day.. as the wind carries him.. what I decide.. whatever comes his way he'll deal with but life just isn't worth knowing where you're going, doing what it takes to get there, and doing it without stepping on others' toes.
Wow, Sheila, you're in such a philosophically interesting and confusing place. Is love a verb? Is it *just* a verb? One person's changes will change the other person, but will it change them enough? Where's the line between a partner's flaws that are dealbreakers and flaws that we can accept and love them with? What qualities or attitudes are actually absolutely necessary for a successful, loving R? And of course, how much of what we want and value are we willing to give up in our R?
Do you think H is happy with himself? He seems insecure about your R. Do you think that stems from personal insecurities or from concern about *your* willingness to keep working on the R?
It almost seems to me like you've gotten to a place that I always wonder about in almost everybody's case on this board. So many people are giving an incredible amount to their R and receiving much less, or in some cases almost nothing, in return. How long can that continue? Isn't that the very problem that causes so many walkaways in the first place? That one person is working to meet the emotional needs of the other without getting their emotional needs met in return? (Speaking of emotional needs, has H read the 5LL?) And your sitch shows that emotional needs aren't the only thing that can go wrong in an R. There are practical needs as well.
Your idea of him checking the boxes to make you happy struck a chord with me. I used to do that with W, especially in bed. I think we tend to do that when we're afraid to fail. We're scared to be in the moment with our partner because we might screw something up and that will really be bad; to have let our feelings touch our partner's and yet still have done the wrong thing. Doesn't that mean we're not right for each other? Better to go through the list that we've seen work in the past. That way our feelings don't mislead us.
I can also tell you that his discomfort at you being on the internet comes strictly from his insecurity. He's not confident that he's a man capable of attracting you to a permanent R. So he falls back to a little bit of control, maybe that will work better.
Will he read a book if you ask him to? I would definitely recommend _Wild at Heart_ by John Eldrege. It's a book about men from a Christian perspective and might be just what he needs if he'll buy in a little bit. It was probably the 2nd most important book in my turnaround after Bonds.
Good luck! It's better to have the funk than to be in a funk.
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
What are we doing BB in rescuing these people from themselves? How can we turn the tide, be lovingly supportive and detached from fixing their problems for them? How can we draw a line and leave them to accept responsibility for their life and actions? My H messes up, I fix it, and I even go so far as to vent the anger he feels at himself for failing! 
He says I need time, but I'm not sure. I know love isnt a feeling, but there are so many things that make a M. I'm very very tired of this struggle. And it's not that H doesn't love me the way he should or any of the other things. It's just this wall that's built around my heart. I've changed. He said that he's driving himself batty to prove that he loves me. That isn't right either. I asked for a break, a time out a few weeks ago and he agreed. Well, we didnt take that time out really. I've been thinking if H would just change a few things I'd feel differently. But like I've said before, it's not fair to expect that and for me to keep raising the bar. I care for him, I love him (as a verb), I enjoy our physical relationship. But trust isnt there. I dont know how it will ever be there again. He was talking to someone last night at the football game.. a guy we know just through our D11 doing things with his daughter. They seem like a lovely family and I like him and his wife. You'd think they would be people we'd have a friendship with.. a lot in common, kids the same age, same interests, church, golf, etc. But I left the game to take the boys to burger king (before they died wanting french fries!). When we came back I walked up and saw H talking to G and it stopped me cold. My first thought was "I wonder what kind of BS he's telling G". This is my H Im talking about!! WTF! How can I be with someone and have that kind of distrust in me? There's a long history of this.. I've always been leary of H and I sharing friendships because he is dishonest. Sooner or later people always see through his BS and I don't want to be a part of that. We talked for a little bit about that and he said he's changed. That he doesn't do that anymore. But still, it really bothers me that I feel the way I do. He's almost ruined a few friendships for me with his lying.. one was with my dearest GF. He borrowed money from her husband (I had no clue!) and never paid him back. Was a couple of years before I even knew that.. she finally told me. And the whole time, I never knew why they turned down invitations to do things together as a couple. 
Too sad. It's not about happiness. It's about trust, hope and commitment.. common goals and understanding/agreeing about the life we're building together. Not sure we can get there from here. He doesn't seem worried about that stuff. He seems like he's living his life from day to day.. as the wind carries him.. what I decide.. whatever comes his way he'll deal with but life just isn't worth knowing where you're going, doing what it takes to get there, and doing it without stepping on others' toes. 
