I can't think of anything to add but felt compelled to post because you managed to kick a lot of butt in one little post! Tell your D to cheer at the games like she's cheering for her mom and she'll be captain of the squad in no time.
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
Hey BB I continue to be a regular visitor and loyal fan of your posts! Still waiting on the "what I used to be like" post. You have your DBing so together and it'd be interesting to hear the contrasts between how you were in your R and how you are now. And I have to say, it's just been a few months, but I've noticed a major change in the tone of your posts. Not just on your thread, but in response to other threads. Can you see it? Not that there was anything wrong with your posts before at all, but your tone has become more tender, supportive and positive.. there's just a little something missing from them now.. a little pain.. bitterness.. ?? not sure. Something I can't put my finger on, and not that you care about my opinion (:o), but I bet the change (whatever it is!) is even more dramatic to people who know you in person. It's a positive that shines through and through everything you have written lately. I never fail to learn something from you and you inspire me to keep trying to change even when I don't feel up to it or am not doing as well as I could.
Where to start? Anyone believe I would resist R talks with H? haha. Im sure no one believed that for a second! Except me. I tend to overestimate my stength unfortunately. Not to be confused with stubborness.. a thing I'm learning that I have a lot of. Do any of your family members every joke about a personality trait and you "kind of" know you're that way, but don't understand what they are saying completely? I'm starting to see that there is substance to all of the kidding I've gotten over the years about being stubborn. The MC calls me tenacious. Sounds good enough..lol. H has asked me to let go of the past and to move forward with him. That is leading me to look at what exactly Im clinging to. There's a lot. A lot of armor that I cling to and maintain on a daily basis that has to go. I think that is what people are referring to when they call me stubborn. Not that I'm not an understanding person or that my mind can't be changed.. not that I'm not open minded and consider other's opinions.. I have lived my life as an "either, or" type of person. Ie., either he loves me or he doesn't. Either he's lying about everything, or nothing. We're either happy, or unhappy together. I have a very hard time existing in that space between. It's hard to explain. But I think it's the reason why I waver between wanting to be with H and wanting to leave. I'm a "rip the band-aid off" kind of person. I can handle being in one place or another, but to be in a kind of limbo and deal with uncertainty is painful. It's probably painful for everyone I guess. But for me, it makes me feel completely insecure and lost. I don't resist change, but if change is going to happen, I want to get it over with and know where I am. Security. This break.. step back from H.. it puts me in that place between being with him and being without him. OMG.. is it possible that I could exist in a relationship without guarantees of one extreme or another. I think that place might be called confidence.. just knowing that I'll be OK in either place, whichever it might end up, and not being in a hurry to find out which. And I'm hoping the more I'm able to be in that place, I'll stop pushing to leave when the going gets tough, or stop clinging to him when he gives me a glimmer of hope that he's changing. And back to the stubborn.. it's like Im standing on a cliff and the past is behind me. I'm afraid to let it go and take that leap into the crevice and float there until I get to the other side. I either want to stay where I am and I know what Im dealing with, and that this is crappy and H can go on to the other side on his own.. or I want the fast train to the future where we are together and happy again. I have went from one extreme to the next... telling him that I forgive him and know he isn't involved with OW and am moving on, and doubting and being sure that he's still talking to her, and it's over. The fact is.. it doesn't really matter. Even if it's somewhere in the middle. We can be here together and be happy together regardless.. it's a choice to live TODAY as today is.
H said something to me the day that he moved out after he came home the first time. I had found out that he was talking to OW and had at least a friendship with her. In my mind, it couldnt be a friendship.. or him letting go gradually.. it had to be that they were madly in love, he was just here for the kids, or whatever other selfish reasons. One thing he said that day (besides ILYBINILWY..ugh) was "If you would just have left it alone, it would've gone away on it's own"..referring to their R. Last night I asked him about that statement. We've had some very honest, heartfelt discussions that last three days. I asked him if it was true. He said "yes". I asked him if that meant that the R would have ended naturally on it's own without my interferrence, and he said "yes". and I asked him if it was because he knew it was wrong, and knew he had to stop talking to her, and knew he would, but just hadn't yet. He said "yes". And I asked him why? And he said "because it meant nothing to me". (he also at one point said - you know all my demons and she didn't. I think this is a big reason why EA happen a lot of times.. to escape from the demons or anyone who knows them" And I said.. does that mean.. that even though we might think about a R with someone else.. let our mind escape there.. flirt with the idea a little, that no other relationship is as significant as ours? And he said "Yes, no relationship I ever have will be as significant to me as the one I have with you." I thought about that for a long time after he went to bed last night. I thought about how I'm an all or nothing person and how that effects my life. I either want all of him, or none of him... and just for my security. That's not the way I want to be at all. I want to be able to know that it's OK for him to have others in his life that mean something to him (not sexually of course, so that makes OW off limits!). But I have always been uncomfortable with his female friends because if they have him, in my mind, I don't. Isnt that warped? I never realized that I was that way. I've never realized that I'm a person of significance in his life.. no matter who comes into it, I mean so much to him.. he loves me. Yes, I know, hit me in the head with a brick.. how low is my self worth that I don't know I'm important to a man that I've spent 18 years with and 4 children?! Again, all or nothing, clouds the reality.. Im either significant, or I'm not, no matter what the facts are. Anwyay, as long as I'm meeting his needs, no one can ever touch the committment he has to our R. Even if he flirts around with it.. considers it.. escapes to it for a one night stand.. in the end, it will pale in comparison to what we have together. I know that I'll never accept him having an EA, or a PA with another woman again. But this realization is progress towards me understanding that I don't have to live every day in fear that my H is going to find someone else to fill his life. I don't have to snoop his phone calls and see if he's talking to another woman and wondering if they are building a R. As long as the R I'm building with him continues to be positive, loving and supportive, we'll be OK. Anything else will take care of itself if I just leave it alone. I could go on and on about this.. gosh, I have already haven't I? haha. I've spent a lot of time trying to sort out my H's lies. What happened in the past that I don't know about. If he was involved with someone else during the times when our R was floundering, or stale. I've thought that if I know about those things, that it would point to the problems that we need to work on to save our M. Well, I was wrong. I haven't been able to accept H's version of his R with OW because he paints it to be so innocent and insignificant, yet he walked away from me twice for it. I asked him how can we fix the problems if I don't even know what drew you to her.. what needs I wasnt fulfilling in you. And he said - you don't have to believe what I tell you to know what our problems are and what I need from you. I can tell you what they are. And I think that is saying... the R with OW doesn't matter.. has nothing to do with us.. its our relationship and what needs to be fixed that matters. Where have I read that before?!! Im so dense sometimes it's pitiful! And he listed the problems that he has.. I was shocked.. he's rarely admitted that he has a problem in our M.. let alone point out what they are. He's always expressed them passively, or stuffed his feelings. So here's what we're dealing with folks:
1. Fear.. fear of rejection and loneliness.. H needs me to know that I won't abandon him when the going gets tough 2. Fear of my anger and resentment 3. H needs love and reassurance 4. Fear that he can't make me happy 5. Fear that he won't be responsible/that I wont be patient while he is learning and working on it. 6. His depression 4. H said that he has anger, bitterness and resentment too and has a hard time expressing his feelings
Lots more has happened. We've made progress on the dishonesty issue too. I wanted to journal this and save it.. get my thoughts in order because all of this is going to be key to our future together
Yes, better! What I feel is FREE. When H refused to come home and came home and left again, it set up a fear in me that I haven't been able to shake. I'm free of that now. I'm letting myself believe what is believable about our R and question what is questionable. I talked to him yesterday about me being a person of extremes and he confirmed that. He's said as much in the past, but I didnt listen or understand what he was saying. He also went as far to say that he thinks it's something that comes from my childhood. I think he's right. I haven't thought about it at length to work through it, but just knowing that I need to be concious and not be an always or never kind of person helps. I haven't snooped the phone records or his personal email in the last couple of days, and I don't want to right now. I feel secure again knowing that we're here working on it and there are alot of positive things happening. I feel free to accept that he loves me deeply even though he sometimes doesn't show it, makes bad decisions, or lies to me. Those things are problems and obstacles to a good relationship.. they aren't an indication of our commitment or love for each other.. they are weaknesses. He has his, I have mine, but we are two people who believe we belong together and want to work our our differences. That's much better than me choosing to believe that he doesn't love me because he lies to me, or he doesn't care about me at all because he's hurt me. Major PMA change on my part.
I had to drive 60 miles yesterday to take D11's flute for repair. Didn't realize the shop was that far away, and we usually try to be home when H gets home. We weren't, but the reason I mention it is because halfway home I decided to stop and let the kids play at a McD's that has a huge play place. I didnt call H and let him know we were stopping and we stayed for over an hour. Usually, this would lead to a lot of cell phone calls from H worrying where we were, but he didnt call once. Even when we were an hour and a half late.. he didnt check on us. I thought he probably fell asleep watching sports or something, but he didnt. He was giving me space.. not rushing us.. not being impatient and that is a change for him. I always feel guilty if I'm gone longer than I think I should be, or if I make him worry about us.. I get anxious and let him control me like that. He is a just "so/so" kind of person and if we get out of routine he gets irritated.. doesnt say anything, but I pick up on his mood. He's trying to be more laid back about that for us and it shows.
After we got home, he mentioned the convo we had before he went to bed and said he laid awake thinking about it. He said it changed how he thinks about us too knowing that our relationship is something more significant than any other we've had or will have. When we divorced 5 years ago, I started dating and he has carried a R I had with someone else around since then and felt insecure and bitter about it. I had no clue because he didnt share is feelings with me then. It came up every once in awhile, but, me being me.. duh, I ignored it. I felt like I was justified because we were divorced and never realized how I hurt him by moving on so quickly. Being here and reading DR, I realize that even though we separated first, I was a WAW then, and he viewed our relationship as an infidelity, but because he felt responsible for our divorce, he couldn't really say much to me about it. He has felt like "I got what I deserved" and at the same time, he was angry, hurt and rejected. We talked about that R the other night and cried.. I apologized for hurting him like that. And I told him that we can talk about it as much as he needs until he feels better. Even though it's over 5 years later, we still need to deal with anything that's affecting us now. And, I don't look at it from the point of view that I don't have anything to apologize for.. if I hurt him, I want to do whatever I can to help him heal too.
The dishonesty issue. Which came first the chicken or the egg? Did H lie and make me angry first.. or did he tell me some bad news and I reacted with anger that he couldn't deal with? Not sure who was the first to break the trust first, but it is a matter of trust. He doesn't trust me to accept what he tells me in an understanding way. We're admitting together that we've created a vicious cycle. He's admitted that he's been secretive and wants to change. I've admitted that I've been a b*tch and there's no excuse for that. And, I'm slowly accepting that one lie doesn't mean that everything is a lie. There's a pattern to what he lies about. Finances.. bad news.. mistakes. We need to discuss this more, but for now, I'm trying to be supportive and positive and show him that I believe in him. Build him up instead of tearing him down. He's talking, talking, talking. He's basically become a "share your feelings" addict..lol. In his eyes, we're closer than we've ever been and communicating better. I have to figure out a way to trust and believe that too. I can see it.. but I let the problems we still have to work through hinder my acceptance of our progress.
Gotta keep living for today! Gotta keep plugging away.
Well, it's Sunday evening. The boys are in bed (sigh). Had a very good weekend emotionally.. physically I'm tired. Wish my S19 would call from college!! He hasn't called as much the last month as he did his first year, and I miss him. He's always been my best talking buddy.. just to hang out and laugh. I think he's burning the midnight oil playing video games with his friends. I worry about that, but am resigned to let him do his thing and just be here if he needs me. I'd give him a call, but I called him earlier in the week and he couldn't stop typing to talk! I'm just praying that he'll continue to keep his grades up and his scholarship. I actually worry less about him being responsible than I do H. Strange, but true. And wow, I didnt even realize I was missing him and sad that he hasnt called until I got on here to journal.
My vent.. tomorrow is Monday and H will work with OW. Mon-Weds.. I HATE Mon-Weds! But, I'm determined to not vent this on him and point out how he PROMISED he'd find another job soon and get away from her. 5 months of sadness, anxiety and anger on this issue. I don't want to feel this way.. I know he isn't talking to her, but the feelings are there. I feel like an idiot for putting up with this. I feel stupid and vulnerable in this spot.. it's like all he has to do is say I love you.. blah, blah.. I'm trying.. blah, blah, and I roll over and say, I understand.. I'll be patient. I just want to shake him and tell him that I'm hurting and I need him to never lay eyes on her again. It makes me feel like running from our R thinking about feeling this indefinately. I wish I could pinpoint exactly why I'm feeling this way. I know he isnt talking to her.. I'm not sure if I'm afraid that he will or not.. I dont' think so. I dont think he's paying much attention to her at all, but still I have this nagging ugly feeling when I think of him going in there tomorrow. Fear? hmm hmm hmmm.. not sure. I'm also not sure if it's just that I want him to have to leave as a form of revenge or payment for what he's done. Anyway, I'm not going to snoop because Im feeling anxious. I've got to work on not letting him control my emotions this way. I choose to be here with him and this is where we are right now. I'm thinking that maybe the problem is that I view him going to work as a way that he says he doesn't care about my feelings. I keep thinking if he cares and doesnt want to hurt me, then why won't he get out of there and do his part. It's easy to care when it doesn't involve actually showing someone you care. But, that's one of those extremes I've been journalling about. He has shown he cares.. especially today. He left me alone to nap this evening when I got a major headache. When I woke up he was making the kids dinner and told me to relax. Yes, he cares... he is just not moving as fast as I'd like getting another job. sigh.
Hang in there! It's obvious you get frustrated like all the rest of us but you've really got a handle now on where it's coming from and where you need to go to get through it. Your H is going to get this figured out. Not as quick as he should, but I think he understands what he'll be losing if he doesn't.
S19 is a different story. I remember when I was 19. I don't remember calling home, though. Maybe if you quit giving him money?
Oh, and due to your determination and especially your wonderfully kind words I was fixing to start the "How I Used to Be" post tonight, but W came home early. These WAS's are always throwing a wrench in the works. Ya know?
Last edited by Burgbud; 09/12/0502:03 AM.
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
Thank you for stopping by on my thread. You and I are of very similar minds these days. I am also trying to understand what my H's love (imperfect as it is) really means. I have a long post on my thread today about this.
It's such a hard question to consider, that is what is someone's love to another? My H also says things to me that he loves me beyond anything in this world. In many ways, I believe him but that still doesn't keep me from being insecure because he doesn't have any pictures of me at his work.
Most R's it seems are just two dysfunctional people, functioning well together. I don't know anyone who is completely, 100% free of baggage and is completely evolved mentally, emotionally, and spiritually. I think that those who are, have no need for an intimate R. So, us mere mortals need to consider that we are all flawed and find ways to be able to either compromise or overcome our flaws.
In the meantime, I would be very happy to keep examining what this means in our lives and our Rs with you.
I wanted to send another quick note before I ran off to a meeting. I'm also suffering from the Monday Blues because H is going back to work and is around OW. Didn't help that I was at H's office on Sunday with him and saw some postcards from her up on the wall. God, my H's OW is so inappropriate!! (Also, I'm driving myself crazy imagining what they might say!)
I wanted to find out from you what your thoughts were when your H said R would have gone away on it's own if left alone. I wonder sometimes the same thing about my sitch. Are these OW just away for our H's to make it through their personal rough spots and if so will it just have its own shelf-life? Why would our involvement keep it going? Because we are asking them to take a look at some very defective parts of themselves?
I'm right there with you about feeling low. Don't snoop. It isn't worth it. Instead, you can debate with me about this topic to your heart's content!
Thanks for understanding and leaving a note. It helps to know someone shares these feelings, but I'd rather neither of us felt this way! Shelf life... ahhh.. maybe the reason they would just go away on their own is because they weren't meant to be real to begin with. The were meant to make them feel good..escape maybe. H said she has personal problems that he can relate to. He wasnt looking for anything meaninful.. he has that with me. Our MC told me one session when I was talking about being ready to give up that I'm going to have to deal with my problems with or without H. In effect, I can run, but I can't hide. I'm responsible for my part of the relationship and 50% of the R it becomes. It's the same way with our H's. Eventually, they'll realize the same obstacles and things they need to change no matter who they're with. But since we were meant to be their lifemate, we should expect ups and downs and most likely will weather them if we work together. A passing affair isnt supposed to have rough spots and it's much easier to let go than a R you have a lot invested in. It's all a fantasy to start with... an escape. I mean, the OW will see the same faults we do eventually. That and the R is built on a foundation of distrust to begin with. I asked him specifically why it wouldn't have lasted. He gave me a list.. she's only 24, she's immature, he's got kids, she doesn't and he can't have any more, they work together, they both have R that they are caught up in and working out (her's is an ex-BF), the sex wasn't enjoyable, the thought was exciting, but it just didnt feel right. (and yes I do believe that.. I told him if he's gonna have a one night stand he should at least make it memorable..geee!). And after all of that he said that I'm the one he's supposed to spend the rest of his life with. His best friend and his soul mate. I'm the only one who really knows him and still loves him the way I do. We have history, and sometimes it's nice to think about running from that, but then when you are away from it.. you realize your heart is just empty because warts and all, you're in love with that person and can't deny it. I did see that his R with OW ended and on its own. They ended it because they had an argument. ONE argument. She thought he had told someone at work about them, and he found out that she was kissing another guy that he works with.. snuck off with him at a co-workers cook out and everyone watched them from a window.. lol Nice girl, huh? They had a heated discussion about whether he was telling people he slept with her, and he said their friendship obviously wasnt good for anyone. They haven't talked since, so my H says. Doesn't sound much like they were building anything lasting, does it? They couldnt even see each other without worrying what their co-workers and H's family would think.
I moved on after our divorce 5 years ago and started dating someone. At first, it was everything my marriage wasnt. It wasn't comfortable.. it was exciting. He did everything I needed and made me feel loved. After a few months though, I started seeing his faults and he started seeing mine. I started missing my H and how I always could depend on him. I missed all the reasons I married him.. and yes, I even missed his flaws because they were predictable and a known evil in our life. Holidays weren't holidays, sex was weird, I didn't want to deal with new bad habits and attitudes. It got tiring and I think it would get tiring to our H's after awhile too.
You wanna hear about my meltdown this morning? Get ready, it's a beauty. I got a call at work about 10:00AM that our S5 was sick at school. I called H because he only had a few hours until he was off and alot more vacation time than me. He didn't answer his cell.. normal for him. I waited ten minutes because he usually has it on vibrate and calls me back. He didnt call... I tried again.. and again... left msgs. Finally I called the emergency number at his work. One of his supervisors answered and I asked for H. He said "J isnt at work today". I said, "hhhh.. OK" and hung up. I tried to call a friend who works their and got his voice mail. Called H back..no answer. I thought about it.. he gets up and leaves for work at 4AM. If he was going to take off to do something else, he'd have slept in and played sick. Well, I called a dozen more times over the next 5 mins.. feeling more and more dread. I finally left to pick up S5 myself. H calls. I said "where are you?!" He said "Im at work" I said "Tom said you aren't" He said "D*$^NT!! I know where I am.. Im standing right outside the airport. I said "well, I should come see!" and he said "go right ahead!.. you'll find me where I always am!" Then he said.. do you want me to have Tom call you back and tell you I'm here. and I said "sure!" Didnt think he would. But he did.. well, not Tom, but one of the ladies called from the work number. "ughhhhhhhhh" Blew that one! I was so p*ssed! Mostly because we have a R where I don't trust him more than I trust someone else. I ranted for awhile about how Im tired of this and him working there..blah, blah..wasnt very nice.. but I kept it short. I turned the cell off to think for awhile. He called later and asked if I'm feeling better and offered to take a couple of days off to concentrate on looking for another job. He said "I'd hate for this job to be the downfall of our R"
He's on his way home now. He called to test the waters and see if I'm still upset. I'm not.. I feel foolish, really. I don't blame myself for feeling the way I did, but I could have taken a deep breath before assuming that he was out doing something he shouldnt be. Lesson learned. Like I said in your thread.. I need to keep asking if Im someone I can live with. If the tables had been turned.. H would have been calling friends and hospitals worried about me and not thinking I was out screwing around or something. He's been faithful to me more than he's been unfaithful.. I need to keep that in mind!
Thanks for listening. Hope you are thinking positive thoughts and remembering a great weekend with your H... you deserve to live in that happy place
I continue to be a regular visitor and loyal fan of your posts! Still waiting on the "what I used to be like" post. You have your DBing so together and it'd be interesting to hear the contrasts between how you were in your R and how you are now. And I have to say, it's just been a few months, but I've noticed a major change in the tone of your posts. Not just on your thread, but in response to other threads. Can you see it? Not that there was anything wrong with your posts before at all, but your tone has become more tender, supportive and positive.. there's just a little something missing from them now.. a little pain.. bitterness.. ?? not sure. Something I can't put my finger on, and not that you care about my opinion (:o), but I bet the change (whatever it is!) is even more dramatic to people who know you in person. It's a positive that shines through and through everything you have written lately. I never fail to learn something from you and you inspire me to keep trying to change even when I don't feel up to it or am not doing as well as I could.