Thanks for the HB wish Sikan I read your post yesterday and have been thinking about it. That and the roller coaster of lies and secrecy that we're both on.

Like you, I see some really good results. And you say it right, that might not be enough to get us over that hump, but if there are postitive results in some areas, how can we generate positive results where they need to be? Mainly in our R, it's a matter of honesty. Lying is a deal breaker for me. And in response to the lies, I do the thing that most hurts my H, I get angry, call him on it, and tell him I don't want to be with a liar. I'm trying to figure out how our sitch is creating the atmosphere for those lies. When does he lie, and why does he lie? What is he getting from that behavior? He admits the problem at least, so that's a start. It's a catch 22 of bad habits with us maybe too. Michelle says to stop doing the things we've always done that don't work. Then we hit a trigger and we go back to dealing with out problems in the same old ways.

The latest sitch with us: Job change (of course!)
My feelings: I hate it that he works with her and they have contact. From day one, I've said it will be very hard for me to trust and move on as long as they work together. That's the reality. No matter how patient I am, how much I zip my lips, at the very core of things - I will have a problem in our R until he finds another job. Its one of those humps. I have a right to that.. H came home knowing that and promising that we'd work that out quickly. I also hate it that their R ended and had nothing to do with me. They just ended it for their own reasons. It might be silly that I feel that way - a result of my insecurities, but I have a need for her to hear that their R was a mistake, that my H loves me, and that what they had meant nothing to him. Right or wrong, again, that's how I feel. We have to deal with that. I either have to accept the way things are, or he is going to have to tell her that. I think if he wasn't working with her, then my insecurities would be so much better and I'd get over the fact that he didn't reject her for me. I felt so much like he rejected me to continue the friendship, but now that he's home working on things, I see that he's committed to me. Whatever they had doesn't matter, or he'd be with her. But then, with the lack of trust, I sometimes believe they are still talking and he's still on a fence but pretending with me. See the problem? As long as he works there, I'll be in a continuous cycle of doubt and distrust. Because, he told me the first time he came home that it was over and that was a lie. Things are so much better now, but there are days when I remember that lie and doubt. And, I'm sure he thinks my feelings are unfair to him. He tries to show me he loves me, but no matter what he does that's good, it all comes back to his job. I'm sure it's frustrating for him, and he thinks Im stubborn. He said last night that even if he took that job, I'd find a problem with it too. So, from his perspective, he can't win and make me happy right now. I'm sure he thinks no matter what he does, he is going to be made to pay for his past mistake. ugh..

Michele also says that one of the things that can be a prob is us needing to know the change is permanent. And she asks how long do things have to be going good before we start to believe this is how the R is, and the bad days are just that, a bad day along the way. Oh gosh... for me, how long. That is such a hard thing to say because of our history. We were reconciled for 4 years and I thought the past was the past, and here we are again. We've fixed a lot, but it's going to take fixing the lying and secrecy for me to get to a place where I'm sure we can work this out long-term. How long without lies and secrecy? hmmm... six months probably and I'd start to trust again. Six months of very honest and open communication. We're not there yet. Compound all this with me not wanting to be a doormat (pride), and the closer it gets to the six month mark that I've been dealing with the pain of knowing he sees her at work, well, I don't want to deal with this forever.. it's like he came home and I'm going to allow him to create a painful sitch for me indefinately.. and I'm going to love him and meet his needs no matter if he meets mine or not.

On with the sitch the last couple of days. I've asked H not to build me up with words and promises. I told him that I'll know how things are going by his actions. But, he uses those words and promises to create a false sense of progress and security for us. Example: He told me that he'd take the first job he was offered, the second it was offered because he hates hurting me by working with OW. He also told me that he'd drive 88 miles each way to work in order for us to move on and start working on the other issues in our R. He loves me just that much! OK, I've posted before that I don't think this is a good job for him to take, but won't tell him that because I'm afraid he'll throw it back at me like "well, I had a job offer, but you didnt want me to take it, so you'll just have to be patient" Which might be true, but it doesn't solve the problem I have and my inability to move on when he's working with her. I could try to be patient, and try to move on, but that's not happening. I'd be lying. It's been 5 months.. pretty patient, we're making progress, but it's still an issue, will always be.

Last night we had an argument. I called him on the lies about taking the first job he's offered, and being willing to drive 88 miles. He's pacifying me by saying another job will be available closer by the end of the month, first week in Oct. Now, given that he lied about his willingness, to "do whatever it takes", is it true that another job is just around the corner, or is he saying that once again to pacify me and keep me happy and patient? He also failed to mention in our discussion about whether he should take this job, that in 6 months, they would require him to move within 30 mins of the job. He said he wanted my help making the decision, but he didn't supply me with all the info. Why? I found out this morning. Because if it came to a point where I wasn't able to wait any longer (called our R off because he's still working with her), he wanted the option of taking that job and he knew I wouldnt "allow him to" (his words) if I knew there was a six month time limit. It would throw him into a place where we'd move (we can't) or he'd lose his job. DOH?! We have 4 kids! He left out an important detail (and lied) to manipulate my opinion of the job so that HE could make the decision that suits HIM... his needs... which are for me to let this go and move on. Very irresponsible for him to put his family in that sitch. Granted, he's between a rock and a hard place here. Having trouble finding a job, but then he's only really been making an effort for the last month and doesn't want to be responsible for the fact that he's dragged his feet in finding a new job. He also has a lot of rules on what the new job has to be. So here we are.
My anger and inability to just let this go is putting him in a sitch where he lies to get the results he wants. Which is for us to let this go, move on and him to stop feeling pressured regardless if he finds another job or not.

He has another choice and he doesnt like it either. For us to not jump right back into the R and just work on waiting this out. Live together, be friends, take care of the kids, GAL, agree that we can work on trust and intimacy when we're in a place where it can grow. He wants that NOW.. well, so do I. But I can't give that to him right now. I can't trust him and be close to him when he has contact with OW. So why can't he be the one to be patient right now, and accept that this is where we are until he can find the right job, at the right salary, in the right place? I'm not talking about making his life a living hell. I'm just suggesting that I be given respect and the choice to protect my heart and feelings while I have doubts and am not SEEING the results that I need to see in order for us to work out our problems. He has secrets and lies to me because he wants what he wants and he wants it now. If he told me the truth about everything then he might have to deal with my feelings about the truth. For me, it's like being held hostage. I don't even know what my R with my H really looks like because it's built on so many things that might not be true. When he lies.. even one lie, it calls everything he's told me into question. When he lies and makes me believe that things are better than they are, it puts me in a better place. It makes me feel like I might want to re-marry him, and then two days later I find out that he's lied and I don't want to be married to him. Then here, I've lied to him because my reality was screwed up and i'm confused. I want to move on too.. I understand my H's need to get past this... I have the same need. He lies, I believe. I choose to believe because it's easy sometimes, and like my H, I'm tired of this roller coaster too. I lie to myself that things are moving forward and then eventually I have to admit to myself that I have a problem with what hasnt changed. It's hard for me to admit that because I feel like I should be the kind of person to just let this go and not worry about him working with her. I want to please him and be patient. I want to give him what he wants. He wants to give me what I want. But the truth is, it's going to take time on both of our parts. Time for him to find a job. Time for me to trust again. Time for him to trust me with the truth. And time for me to learn how to respond when the truth is something I don't want to hear. We can either break the cycle, or it can break us. It's not an issue of love, committment, or desire for us to please each other. It's an issue of breaking patterns that don't work and admitting to what our problems are. It's an issue of understanding each other and helping each other to work out our faults instead of wanting to blame, be right, or just ignore that we aren't perfect.

You are so right about the cycle and our H's wanting to call them on their bad behavior. My H has admitted to that. How do we break that cycle? By refusing to be responsible for their problems? By being available for honest communication, but ignoring when they are not taking responsibility? I think I need to stop giving my H the results he wants until he shows me that things are really changing. I need to stop being weak and realize that I'm contributing to the problem by giving him good results when he fills my head up with flowery words that by now, I've learned are BS. I need to take responsibilty for my need to believe him and trust without proof. He is like the pied piper for me! I let him lead me to a fantasy that I know is not true. I need to take responsibility for the fact that I cant/wont trust right now and that pretending isnt going to work. Yes, in the end, we might not continue our R because we can't work it out, but I have to face that possibility and take responsibility for my part of that. He might decide that he doesn't want to be with someone who thinks they can dictate where he works, or who he works with. He sees their R as insignificant and might think my feelings are unreasonable.. because he came home and is committed to me. he might think that's enough and reject me if I push too much.

So, my strategy right now is to admit that I can't move forward until he changes jobs. If we're going to be together, we're both going to have to agree to be in limbo until he decides to do that. He's going to have to agree that it's OK with him that he's living with someone who doesn't really want to work on intimacy right now. I need distance emotionally until I feel safe. If he doesn't want to wait for me to give more, he might decide to get out of the R. It's the chance I take when I choose not to trust him right now and work on being closer. I've told him that I can't be close to him when he works with her and is lying to me. Those are boundaries I have because living outside of those boundaries hurts me and makes me feel insecure. I want our R to be a safe place, but it's not right now. I have to accept that. I have to accept that he can't give me that right now (whatever the reason), but I have to stick with those boundaries or I'm choosing to hurt and disrespect my own needs. I guess we're going to have to work on baby steps to being close friends, work on trusting each other with the truth, being here for each other and understanding each other before we can move towards having an intimate R. It's like a war zone when we try to force a R we cant have right now.

Long long rambling post I know. I'm trying to work through some stuff. I'll let H read it later and see what he thinks. I love him.. I really do. I have a lot to learn about having a healthy M and it's going to take awhile!