You are projecting that from a HD point of view This was the opening line in my comment regaurding your comment.
So the sitch that Mrs N hypothesized (namely that "all he wants is sex") is not the case for me, nor is it the case for many of the HDs on this board, as far as I can tell from the HD point of view from what I read. You are saying the exact same thing I said that it is from the HD point of view. I only disagree with this is not a problem with most people in there relationship on this board. It may not be the problem of the HD person posting here but it may be how there LD spouse feels so it is still a problem within there relationship so should not be dismissed as non existant at large. You asked a question of LD people Mrs Nop answered and in turn asked you the same question but from a LD spin. You came from a place of how you feel being HD in a relationship with a LD. She offered you a glimpse inside of how the LD partner feels at times with having a HD partner. Every relationship here has a HD and LD partner so it is fair to say this glimpse is a reflection of alot of HD's spouses feelings at times. Her answer of a turned around question was probably the most insightful one you will get in response of your question.
As always the HD LD dynamics is a catch 22 situation.
I said as you quoted (out of context)
Actually I quoted you in context but in my reply I took out the personalization of your relationship. Since I was responding to the dismissal of what may or may not be going on in other relationships of HD people on the board.
Hope you had a nice day and enjoy a wonderful evening!
Quote: When I say "that sort of emotional entanglement," I mean the sort that has the potential for sexual connection, in fact, that already has an element of sexual connection in it. THAT'S what distinguishes a roommate R from a lover to lover R.
No.
It is the level of intimacy that is going on in the relationship that defines the difference between roommate and spouse.
Intimacy *can* be expressed sexually. However, sex is not necessarily an indication of intimacy.
If sex was all that made the difference between roommates and spouses, then where would you place f*ckbuddies?
Quote: Maybe I can put it this way: shared activities, etc. is a necessary but not sufficient condition for me to be satisfied, AND sex* is a necessary, but not sufficient condition for me to be satisfied. Both are necessary.
Sex doesn't "do it" for me. If sex were the most important thing, I'd be long gone as there is nothing holding me in this R except my regard for my bf-- not marriage, children, shared finances, or shared home. Clearly there are other things more important than sex to me.
But I DO want sex in this R at some point.
Mrs NOP wrote
Quote: Sex does it for you. But because it is of such importance to you, it's as if you can't conceive that *other* people have criteria other than sex that leaves them feeling loved and special.
Why would we want to equate the marital relationship that Chrissy or I might want as "just roommates"? Sex for me is an extension of the relationship. It isn't the leading component. It isn't the defining component.
I can jolly well conceive of it, he11, I'm LIVING IT! But how does that make my R different from a R between two opposite sex roommates-- take Will and Grace-- who clearly adore each other?
More clarification: I'm also not saying that just because the HD person is basically content except for the lack of sex that the LD person is also basically content. Since I'm not the LD person, I can't address that (and wouldn't).
Quote: But how does that make my R different from a R between two opposite sex roommates-- take Will and Grace-- who clearly adore each other?
I don't know squat about Will and Grace, except that it is a tv show.
I don't know that you do understand it, you have repeatedly said that you don't feel special, because you aren't having sex.
I can understand that.
You ask whether LD people find that sex makes them feel special. I answered the question by pointing out that different people have different criteria about what gives them that "I'm loved and special to this person" feeling.
And then we circle the block again and come back to the "so what makes it different from roommates, if it ain't sex?"
Quote:
Quote: Sex does it for you. But because it is of such importance to you, it's as if you can't conceive that *other* people have criteria other than sex that leaves them feeling loved and special.
"*other* people have criteria other than sex that leaves them feeling loved and special."
Quote: It is the level of intimacy that is going on in the relationship that defines the difference between roommate and spouse.
Absolutely! I happen to know a lovely older couple who, because of illness, are no longer able to have sex, but who have a very loving and extremely intimate relationship. I know because I am related to them, and I happen to know the situation (I'm a nurse, they asked my opinion at one point about this medical matter).
They aren't sexually involved anymore (on any level, again, I happen to know...) but they have that 'look' that speaks volumes! I've spoken to them both on different occasions, and they both have that twinkle in their eye that indicates they are 'into' each other, and both report feeling very loved and special. I also happen to know they had a great sex life, and must miss it terribly at times, but people certainly can see they are more than roommates!
Being the LD spouse, if my dh stopped acting sexual towards me in every way, I think I'd feel like there was someone else in the picture, or that something was wrong in another way. I'd soon be upset, but probably not overly 'horney'... perhaps feel unattractive?
Ah how true that is but again in the HD/LD catch 22 aspect my H is the HD and he will only tell me what he does not want and that is a sexless relationship he will not tell me other then that anything as to what he does want and what he is willing to do to make the relationship better or wants me to do to make it better other then to want to have sex more often.
But in all fairness I cannot tell him what I need of him. I can say what I want of him and don't want of him but need is so much bigger and I am at a dead blank there. I just cannot seem to truely define what my love language is for him to speak to me in. If I was to say WOA then his telling me I am pretty would be in my love language. It is not no gushy feelings come from knowing my H finds me pretty. But if I was to say that WOA were not important that is incorrect also I want my H to tell me he finds me smart and witty and funny that is important to me. If I am to say PT is important to me then deep throat kissing and sexual desire should fill my love tank but they don't. Yet if I say that PT is not important to me it seems decieving also because I like and crave touching that does not come from sexual desire and feel loved from this. So it is all becomes so dam confusing. That even I don't know what I want.
Jen, thanks for your comments. You completely supported my point, and you'll never know how much I appreciate that. You wrote
Quote: They aren't sexually involved anymore (on any level, again, I happen to know...) but they have that 'look' that speaks volumes! I've spoken to them both on different occasions, and they both have that twinkle in their eye that indicates they are 'into' each other, and both report feeling very loved and special. I also happen to know they had a great sex life, and must miss it terribly at times, but people certainly can see they are more than roommates!
YES! That LOOK is exactly what I am talking about. I want to see the look in my bf's eye. The fact that this couple no longer has explicit physical sexual contact but STILL has the twinkle in the eye, is EXACTLY what I am getting at. There are sexual vibes between them. YES! That is the point. They are not just roommates. They are sexual beings who have sexual feelings for each other. It is not JUST about sexual physical contact, it is about how they see each other as sexual beings.
Jen also wrote
Quote: Being the LD spouse, if my dh stopped acting sexual towards me in every way, I think I'd feel like there was someone else in the picture, or that something was wrong in another way. I'd soon be upset, but probably not overly 'horney'... perhaps feel unattractive?
This is exactly what I was getting at, and a million zillion thanks for understanding what I was getting at.
Chrissy, you said earlier that your self esteem derives in no way from your H's sexual desire for you. But you have an H who pursues you for sex a lot, so how do you know your self esteem is in no way connected to that? You say that if he stopped pursuing you sexually it would not harm your self esteem at all... but I question that. I think you might very well have the reaction that Jen is describing. Same with you, Mrs. NOP. You two are in a grocery store full of food, you are satiated, even stuffed, and you cannot imagine what it is to starve... to long to look at your partner and hope so badly see that twinkle in his eye, whether or not he reaches for you physically.
It's easy to say sex doesn't matter when you're having it every day/twice a week.
You know, if you ask someone a question, it presumes that you're actually interested in the response.
Quote: Chrissy, you said earlier that your self esteem derives in no way from your H's sexual desire for you. But you have an H who pursues you for sex a lot, so how do you know your self esteem is in no way connected to that? You say that if he stopped pursuing you sexually it would not harm your self esteem at all... but I question that. I think you might very well have the reaction that Jen is describing. Same with you, Mrs. NOP. You two are in a grocery store full of food, you are satiated, even stuffed, and you cannot imagine what it is to starve... to long to look at your partner and hope so badly see that twinkle in his eye, whether or not he reaches for you physically.
It's easy to say sex doesn't matter when you're having it every day/twice a week.
You don't speak for me. I speak for me.
Jen spoke her answer. I can understand her answer. I would not presume for a moment to attempt to tell her she was wrong. Or mistaken. Or she was just Xing because of Y. Because it is her assessment of her life and her situation. Who am I to discount it? Or disagree with it?
That you had to strive for someone, anyone (and pardon me, Jen, your opinion is just as legitimate as mine. I am not trying to negate it or its truth), to substantiate your opinion, and then use that one opinion to discount two other opinions, lets me know that you weren't seeking opinions. Or truth. Or understanding.
You were seeking to have your already-established-therefore-must-be-true opinion supported.
Okay. You're right. I don't know myself. Neither does Chrissy. Because we don't substantiate your "point".
I'll tell you what it proves to me.
That you can't grok the idea that there are people in relationships that are longing, crying, praying, seeking, trying to tell their significant someone that *they* have desires too. Desires that they want to be met by their spouse. Desires that may not be dressed up in sexual overtones, or tricked out in horniness. They hunger. And long.
And that to those people, they ARE in a marriage. They are a spouse. They are longing for intimacy. They aren't frickin' "roommates".
That they are desperately hoping that the HD spouse will hear them. And work with them *whether or not they understand or agree*.
You don't know what I have "starved" for, "longed" for or "hoped" for.
Sexually starved people do not have the market on unrequited marital needs.
Quote: This is exactly what I was getting at, and a million zillion thanks for understanding what I was getting at.
I understood your point. I just didn't agree with it.
That's a fairly common relational fallacy - that if someone just understood then they would agree. So, therefore if they disagree with *you* then they must just not *understand* .
You have a nasty habit of discounting someone because "they are just saying X because of Y".
We did go through long periods of time where there was no sexual interaction. I said what I said because it is what I have lived. What I know about myself. So your assessment of "you're just saying X because of Y" is in error.
Quote: But in all fairness I cannot tell him what I need of him. I can say what I want of him and don't want of him but need is so much bigger and I am at a dead blank there. I just cannot seem to truely define what my love language is for him to speak to me in. If I was to say WOA then his telling me I am pretty would be in my love language. It is not no gushy feelings come from knowing my H finds me pretty. But if I was to say that WOA were not important that is incorrect also I want my H to tell me he finds me smart and witty and funny that is important to me. If I am to say PT is important to me then deep throat kissing and sexual desire should fill my love tank but they don't. Yet if I say that PT is not important to me it seems decieving also because I like and crave touching that does not come from sexual desire and feel loved from this. So it is all becomes so dam confusing. That even I don't know what I want.
The Five Love Languages points out that there are several "dialects" in each category.
I have some quirks in mine that sound similar to yours. Telling me I'm beautiful when I'm naked in bed doesn't mean as much to me as telling me I'm beautiful when I'm all "doodied" up to go somewhere. Part of it may be because naked in bed is heading toward NOP's primary LL, so telling me there is under that category. Telling me when we aren't in bed means more to me.
I find that telling me "You're funny or you have a good sense of humor" doesn't mean as much to me as telling me "You make me laugh". Making it even better is telling me "Your sense of humor can really help me when I'm feeling down. It seems that I can count on you to strike just the right note of humor and sensitivity that makes my day more pleasant." I don't want to necessarily hear compliments as much as I want to hear how *my* qualities impacts his life.
On physical touch - I come from a family of "babooners". I bet most of you have seen the documentary flicks of baboons sitting close to each other combing hair with fingers, scratching an itch for someone else and picking off nits. (However, my family did not have nits... ) There's probably some sort of subliminal bonding that goes on. That's my idea of physical touch - NOP will tolerate my babooning him - with eyes squinted and feet twitching for a quick get-away. Reciprocal babooning just doesn't come natural.
My quality time desires are geared more toward activities together. I don't really seek a "let's sit on the couch, look deeply into each other's eyes and tell deep things about ourselves" sort of gal. Although I know that's really big for many women.
Acts of service - it means more to me for NOP to work *with* me on the housework as opposed to more random acts. And timing on AOS means a lot. I'm probably off the scale on AOS to others. Sitting down and being waited on by others is nigh impossible for me. It's very hard for me to ask others to do anything for me. Any whiff of "not right now" irritation or the sense that I have imposed in some way when I do manage to eak out a request, will result in a full collapse of the love-bank monetary system.
The point is, *you* get to define what speaks to you, nourishes your soul, and which if provided by your husband pulls your heart closer to him. It doesn't have to exactly fit into certain parameters.
I do get that you understand me now. I didn't until your last post. Your post really says a lot.
I appreciate your hanging in there and really explaining your POV so that I CAN understand. I WANT to understand.
I didn't mean to discount you or speak for you. I'm not nearly as "nasty" as you think. I just get desperate when I feel someone is discounting and not listening to me.
I apologize for and heavy-handed way I may have expressed my passionate feelings about this subject.
) There's probably some sort of subliminal bonding that goes on. That's my idea of physical touch - NOP will tolerate my babooning him - with eyes squinted and feet twitching for a quick get-away. Reciprocal babooning just doesn't come natural. 