Cemar, Speaking on behalf of my LD spouse, he loves only me in a romantic sense. That, along with sex, is what makes our R unique in his eyes. But it is the love that is paramount to that "uniqueness", for him.
He is much more about feelings and less about actions. That is, his feelings of love are what make this R special. For me, it is what I DO that makes it unique to me..the feelings are only the facilitator to the actions. His thinking is the opposite of this. His feeling of love is what he values most about this R, not necessarily the actions that are involved.
Quote: Speaking of the dog... when he interacts (is it really interaction if all the dog does is look adoringly at him?) with the dog, he says stuff like, "Buddy is the BEST dog in the world.. he's the smartest, the prettiest, the cutest." Well, dammit, I'd like him to be saying that I'M the smartest, prettiest, cutest...
Perhaps if all you did was look adoringly at him... ?
Quote: What is it that a LD does for their spouse/relationship that they do not do with anyone else, that morally/ethically/religously can ONLY be done with their spouse?
But this is a setup similar to "have you stopped beating your wife". You've already limited the parameters of what constitutes "special to spouses only". And your proscribed limitation can only be satisfied by sex.
I wanted NOP to take joy in being with me.
Me when we were out camping.
Me when we were out for dinner.
Me in a crowd.
Me at a concert.
I wanted to see him not only occasionally give up the fishing trip, but have a great time going with *me* to the zoo, or a concert.
I wanted to see grins of pleasure aimed in my direction when we were together - that we were together! I didn't want it based on whether or not it was something he would have chosen for his spare time.
I could have done all of those things with someone else - but I wanted to do them with NOP. No one else was capable of meeting what I wanted to have with my husband. To keep limiting this to sex only is to miss it. And the few times I did do some of these things with groups, I was always *painfully* aware that NOP wasn't there and apparently my being there wasn't enough of a draw to him.
I'm not saying that my situation was/is different. But you know sometimes going out to dinner with your spouse isn't always about eating. Evidently recreational companionship is a biggy on my wanta meter. Even *I* think it sounds goofy. I can only figure that it comes from a childhood that was devoid of such and a deep longing was created.
Pursuing that need outside of my husband would have made me emotionally detach even more than I did and would have left me possibly vulnerable to my travelling companions.
In other words, spouses who have needs/desires (even outside the sexual) who are left to pursue those needs/desires (even though society sanctions them as not being limited to a marital relationship) are spouses who will be investing emotional energy outside of their marriage and who will be vulnerable to extramarital affairs.
That would probably help explain why LD spouses are just as inclined to have affairs as are HDs.
I'm with you Mrs. Nop. That precisely is why I have such issues with H having soooooooo many people in his "inner circle." In my mind, the spouse is in the inner circle and all the other circles of life intersect that one (like a venn diagram). There is a preference for the spouse, a unique enjoyment with the spouse, something that just isn't there with anyone else. Other people are important as well but as you said, the fact that it is our spouse that we are sending a card to, our spouse that we are at dinner with, our spouse that we are hugging makes it different and special.
When we were dating, my H (even though he later would always deny it) told me that he would NEVER put me before his friends or his family. That should have been a huge red flag for me, but I still married him. He NEVER did put me or our marriage before them either. We went to counseling where he declared that his dad was his best friend...dad who abandoned the family when H was 9 (now 40) and hasn't really been around for him since then. H had 2 foot surgeries last summer, and dad never even visited. We never got to create our own memories of any place we went together as he would fondly remember when WE went there or near there or anywhere. WE was his friends or his family, not us.
H once volunteered to take dad and his brother back to brother's home (2.5 hrs. from us) in case they had car problems but wouldn't come 45 mins. to meet me when I did have a car problem. He would drop everything if a friend needed a favor but brush me off when I asked for something. WE, again not us, always came first to him.
Being married doesn't necessarily move a relationship to first in line; our marriage certainly never came first. He's been gone 2 months now and doesn't have to worry about our marriage taking anything away from those more important to him.
Thanks everyone for those very thoughtful responses.
Karen, I totally agree with what you said in your posts. There is a "unique enjoyment" with the spouse, even if it's watching tv or shopping at Wal-Mart. It's not "just" about sex, but the potential for sexual connection-- the sexual vibes-- are there-- or at least, we want them to be there.
Karen's and Mrs. NOP's comments are particularly interesting. Mrs. NOP wrote
Quote: I wanted to see grins of pleasure aimed in my direction when we were together - that we were together! I didn't want it based on whether or not it was something he would have chosen for his spare time.
I could have done all of those things with someone else - but I wanted to do them with NOP. No one else was capable of meeting what I wanted to have with my husband. To keep limiting this to sex only is to miss it.
This could be the crux of the matter... those special looks and that sense that of all the people in the world, he wants to be Here and Now with you: this is what I want, and frankly what I think HDs and LDs both want.
I don't think we're "limiting it to sex only" in this discussion; I think we're saying that that feeling of wanting to do "all of those things" with Him and Him only is in fact a sexual connection that, at least from the HD perspective, creates a yearning toward some kind of physical fulfillment-- holding hands, kissing, and ultimately ML.
This is such an important question that I hope someone can answer it: If that feeling of wanting to do "all of those things" with Him and Him only does not create a yearning for physical connection at some point, then how is it different from a roommate, friend-friend connection?
In my case, I don't get that look from my bf-- well, I do from time to time, but I can't count on it. AND I don't get sexual advances either. Does he feel that special way about me? I'm not sure, but if he does, how do I know, since his ways of expressing his love for me are also the ways that he expresses love to his mom and daughters. (Karen, for example, on Valentine's Day, he buys four identical bouquets of flowers, one for each of us.) The sexual connection that I wish I would see between us is not "just" (there's that word again) about physically making love. It's about that special bond, the one way in which we have the potential to connect that we do not have with anyone else. The nature of that connection is the way in which I am different from the other women in his life.
Sex is not the essence of the connection that I want with him, but it is the essential fulfillment of the connection that I want to have with him.
When I don't see that desire, when I don't see that special look, how do I know that I am, in fact, special to him?
Mrs. NOP, is it possible that you're so accustomed to being with a man who wants you consistently and reliably, and has done so for many years, that you cannot imagine what it would be like to be with someone who was physically indifferent to you? And how that indifference might make you wonder if you were indeed special to him?
Honey, I think Karen put it well. It's not so much about LL. It's about the desire to have him declare/ make evident in some way that our bond is unique and special.
This insight has been so helpful, because it has helped to explain why I've felt so rocky from the beginning. In the beginning I was not sure of my welcome. Whenever the phone rang, I thought it was him calling to break up with me. It wasn't anything in particular that he did-- in fact THAT was it: he wasn't doing anything in particular to let me know that he had found the Woman of His Dreams. Wow! It would be so cool if he would say that: that I am the Woman of His Dreams! BUT if he said that, and then still never touched me... that's crazy-making stuff, for sure.
H sends a Valentine's bouquet to me AND his best friend who is gay and disabled. The bouquet to his friend is from "both of us" and is labeled that way. H feels that this man is lonely with no significant other and a fervent desire to settle down with some nice man. This man is a very good man and they have been friends for a long time and have helped each other through a lot. The bouquet is a tradition but it still bothers me.
___________________________________________________________ the Woman of His Dreams. Wow! It would be so cool if he would say that: that I am the Woman of His Dreams! BUT if he said that, and then still never touched me... that's crazy-making stuff, for sure.
Karen, In my current drifting around in the doldrums, I think I am discovering that it isn't really about the sex per se at all, rather I think Lillie/MrsNOP hit the nail on the head...it is about being made to feel I am special, that she wants to be with me, to share herself with me. Yeah, sex is part of it, but it is only the tip of the iceberg, and I think perhaps the easiest to pin-point. I think now that I could do without the sex as long as I got that feeling of intimate connection and that she was eager to share herself with me. It isn't just sex she holds back on, it is also intimate conversation. She finds that very difficult, and when pressed into sharing starts analyzing instead of sharing. Normally, she'll only talk about the kids or scouts or the neighbors or anything except her and what she is feeling. Same goes for sharing etc, as well as working together on projects or seeing things. If nothing else, this journey has made me see just how deep the rift is between us, and the frustrating part is that she doesn't seem to want to work to close it.
Quote: I don't think we're "limiting it to sex only" in this discussion; I
My response was specifically to Cemar, who is adamant that the only thing different between roommates and spouses is that with spouses you make love.
I was responding directly to this:
Quote: What is it that a LD does for their spouse/relationship that they do not do with anyone else, that morally/ethically/religously can ONLY be done with their spouse?
I was pointing out that things as mundane as a desire for conversation are available at a different level with spouses than it is with mere friends. I can talk with friends, but I don't want to share my depths with my friends, I want to share that with my spouse. If I share that depth with another person, as a hetero, if I share that depth with a man, I am going to eventually become emotionally entangled with that man. So, I share myself in conversation with my spouse in a way that I have never shared with anyone before.
I can kiss friends, both male and female on the cheek - even a quick lip smack on occasion. I'm not however, going to be french kissing them. Conversation, time together, etc., can also be at different levels, just like the aforementioned kissing can be.
Yeah, there's more to it than CeMar said, and really, he probably knows that in his heart of hearts.
This interests me: Mrs. NOP wrote
Quote: if I share that depth with a man, I am going to eventually become emotionally entangled with that man.
I think what we're saying is that that sort of "emotional entanglement" has a sexual component. Which, as you've correctly pointed out, is why it's dangerous to seek that type of emotional connection outside the marriage. At the point that the emotional connection is willingly entered into, that's an EA, and an EA by its nature wants to become a PA, even if it never does.
When I say "that sort of emotional entanglement," I mean the sort that has the potential for sexual connection, in fact, that already has an element of sexual connection in it. THAT'S what distinguishes a roommate R from a lover to lover R.
In the movies, someone declares their love for another. The declar-ee replies, "I don't think of you THAT WAY," meaning, "I don't think of you romantically, sexually, or picture myself going to bed with you."
What this thread is about is that I want my bf to think of me THAT WAY. I think he thinks he does, but if he doesn't act sexual toward me, how do I know? And if I KNOW it even if he doesn't act that way, where is the fun in it for me?
Last night something cute happened: We were sitting at the table eating, which we do whenever we eat in. (We never sit in front of the tv to eat, which is what my late H and I did every night except Friday.) The mood was light-hearted. I said, "So am I the Woman of Your Dreams?" His face sort of mock-fell, and he said, "Aw, don't go pullin' that 'girl' sh*t on me." I said, "Well, I'm a girl, and that's what girls do." So I waited, and he got more uncomfortable. I could tell that some woman or women had used this kind of talk to nail his feet to the floor in the past-- or at least that was the way he was remembering it. Finally, after looking all around the room and fidgeting, he said softly, looking at the tabletop, "Yes, you're the Woman of My Dreams." I didn't say anything; I just beamed and beamed, and he smiled, too. (I obviously scare the cr@p out of him.) I belive he meant it. It was very sweet and made me happy.
about sex, but the potential for sexual connection-- the sexual vibes-- are there-- or at least, we want them to be there. 