He doesn't have the power to do that, Heather. Think about this. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well unless I want to become controlling like he is, I don't see where ... the reality that I cannot deny is that he does have the power to control me with these things.
OK, the answer is because you're letting him. He's gonna do what he wants to do and laugh in your face as he frustrates you. F*ck him. Leave the b#stard. You don't love him anymore, and he doesn't love you. Leaving him... THAT's how you'll get yourself back. Forgive my bluntness.
"love is a verb or a choice" isn't about having loving "feelings". It's about acting with love. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm about to say something really WASish that I think I should probably know the answer to by now, but here goes: How can I act with love when I don't feel any love for him? Yes, that is a real question.
H is NOT encouraging your feelings of love toward him, but trashing them by his trying to control you, and your feelings of love have diminished, and may have in fact, died. Yes, they can die. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is where I get confused. For me, the feelings can die? But for every other WAS on this board, they are just hiding, running, deluded, selfish
Well, maybe it's not readily admitted about the WAS, but sometimes they've left because their feelings of love have been killed off. Just as an LBS's whining and groveling and pleading can kill off any residue of love the WAS may have, so can controlling behaviors, verbal or physical abuse kill off love.
But don't treat me preferentially b/c you haven't heard H's side of the story.
Need I, really? I need to hear his BS reasons? No thanks. Life's too short.
I want to hear that I deserve better and that I've tried. I want to hear that my A doesn't justify all the bad things that have since happened nor does it excuse or erase all the bad things that happened prior. When people say that to me, I know they care about me. But it makes me wonder if all I've really done is brought yet another person over to 'my side'.
You know why I'm on your "side"?
Because you're in such a cloud that you still don't see how you're making excuses for his abuse of you, you still don't see how you both are really showing how that neither of you really want this relationship deep down.
Have you read "In Cold Blood"? Light reading compared to what we've been through. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have not read that. I looked it up and it looks intimidating!
I was joking. It's that wry humor I'm so loved and noted for.
One of the great things about the board is you can get so many different opinions so here's mine, worth every bit of the paper it's not written on.
First, let me list the responses you've already gotten that I agree wholeheartedly with:
- Either path will require a lot of strength, and you have enough, so don't be afraid.
- You're a good person for what you are doing. Take care of yourself.
- H is NOT encouraging your feelings of love toward him, but trashing them by his trying to control you, and your feelings of love have diminished, and may have in fact, died. Yes, they can die.
- It's not healthy, and you deserve far better.
- Dr. Phil and Michele arent going through this, you are. They can give us hope that we can improve things when we change our attitudes and action, but they don't have to do it.
Remember that Dr. Phil doesn't say you can make your M work on your own. He says you have to earn your way out. And you have done that in spades. It amazes me how much stronger you've gotten despite so much adversity. That is a real testimony to your character and how far you've come since you were 15 and 17.
It's been awhile in this thread since emotional abuse has been mentioned. But to ML over the course of a year without allowing kissing is emotional abuse in the highest form as far as I'm concerned. And with no apparent plan for that ever changing? In many ways I can identify with Matt, but some of his sh1t just boggles my mind and leaves me gasping.
In the end I think you should listen to everybody on this board and all the authors you've read, absorb what's useful, then ignore everybody and do what's right for you. I know you won't do that from a purely selfish position; that you'll consider the needs of your kids as well. So with that in mind, do what's right for you.
I also want to remind you of a couple of things I've probably mentioned before. I would suggest you keep trying to save this M as long as you must in order to feel justified if and when you leave. But in my view you've long ago reached that place. Remember that a separation is not a divorce. You've got no choice but to wait a year between the two and plenty can happen in that time. Don't do it just to jar Matt into core changes, but realize that may be a positive outcome. I urge you to separate *before* you've passed the point of no return on your M. Do it while there's still some chance and some hope in your soul that if he changes, you two can reconcile. How many of us on this board didn't make the changes we needed until after the bomb? How many of us would love to have a spouse that wanted the R to work post-bomb? When your R reaches that point, don't squander that separation year because you're too far gone for it to be anything other than a waste. Leave while it's still useful, whether that's tomorrow or next month or five years from now. Separation is kind of a nuclear option, but it can still be a powerful weapon in the battle to save your M rather than just a way to dissolve it.
I think my H has already demonstrated he will be very ugly if things came down to a separation. Knowing what I would go through and what my kids would go through if I left keeps me right where I am.
I know, and I hope you know, that's not sustainable. It will break you down if you never get past that idea. Leave while you're still strong and can be great for your kids. Don't stay until you're less than you are. That won't help them. If you need to be scared silly to see this point I can arrange for you to talk to Steff. (I wouldn't wish that on you but hey, whatever it takes.)
Finally, I'd like to repeat this because I like it so much:
Either path will require a lot of strength, and you have enough, so don't be afraid.
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
Except maybe in time he will want to be my friend. But my guess is he would say he's being my friend now (or at least as much of a friend to me as I am being to him-there's tracy-logic ).
I told Steff that someone on the board had latched on to "tracy-logic" and was going to use it by that name. She laughed 'til she cried. So that was twice this weekend I made her laugh!
This is where I get confused. For me, the feelings can die? But for every other WAS on this board, they are just hiding, running, deluded, selfish....you get it. Why do I get to be so lucky??
Stop me if I'm wrong, but the difference is you still wish it would work. If Matt made the changes that many folks on this board have made, and if he started filling up your emotional tank rather than draining it at every opportunity, you'd be happy to hold up your end, at least until now. That's a significant difference. Don't underestimate yourself. Don't guilt yourself into sticking with something unhealthy for you.
I don't think I've ever blamed Steff on these boards or elsewhere for walking away. I blame her for some other sh1tty stuff she's pulled, like sleeping with Om the night I took the boys househunting and before she'd even managed to drop the bomb. And several things since then. But her love for me died honestly, it's just a shame she is utterly closed to seeing if it can be brought back to life. OTOH, if I haven't really made the changes I think I have, there's no compelling reason for her to come back to me, either. And you're in the same boat she was; if anything your sitch is a little worse. So I don't think you're getting the benefit of the doubt over everybody's WAS. People are on your side because it's the right side to be on.
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
Quote: At the risk of sounding like I'm fishing for a compliment, could I ask you to expand here a little? What is it that you think I'm doing and how does it make me a good person?
Get out your rod & reel and bait the hook, here's why you are a good person.
- You're there for you K's. You're considering their interests in your decision making.
- You owned up to what you did. It took courage to admit that. You made yourself vulnerable to all this nonsense. You're looking at a lot of other things about yourself as well.
- You came to this board and helped me and probably numerous others to see some things from "the other side". Most of us here just don't get it. I've gotten past some anger towards WAW.
BTW, on the way home today, I'm listening to Steely Dan Aja instead of MDW KLA. They call Alabama the Crimson Tide, call me Deacon Blues
Piglet, thanks for your words of encouragement and the hugs yesterday, I appreciate you stopping by. I somehow missed your post until just now. The way we feel about our Rs is often similar it seems.
Quote: I'm beginning to think the best thing I can do when in doubt is to do nothing.
I think you're probably right. Although I strongly disagree with H that I have been irrational this past year, I have no doubted acted on a lot of emotion thereby allowing my emotions to control how I acted. I can see where that may *seem* irrational when no communication is occurring between two people that might otherwise clear up the confusion. So, I'm with you. Do nothing until I can be sure that my emotions aren't jerking me around, cuz I've been there and done that and felt no better for it.
Quote: Have you read "In Cold Blood"? Light reading compared to what we've been through. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have not read that. I looked it up and it looks intimidating!
I was joking. It's that wry humor I'm so loved and noted for.
Oh, good!! I was feeling like a total slacker there for a while, thinking, jeez is this what smarter people than myself read for fun??!
NY, my C has asked me to sit in her place and pretend I was offering a friend advice, the friend being someone who is telling me all the things I've told her. She's asked me to consider what I would tell them. I would probably tell them to separate, I don't deny that. I completely understand why you feel like I should move on. I probably should move on. But I don't want to move on. I've spent a lot of time feeling wimpy b/c I don't want to move on and I've spent a lot of time feeling like I don't have the right to be unhappy in my R if I'm not willing to move on. My reasons for staying put right now are many, but here's a great one for you. My son's b-day is coming up on Oct 6. I get to be with him, 100% for certain. He's turning 5 and I'm not going to miss a single second. How's that for a great reason to stay where I am? I'm not miserable. I don't spend every day crying. In general, I think my H is an a@@ who has a twisted way of viewing the world. But in general, he's affecting me less and less. So my days with my kids are spent happier than they would have been spent before I found DB and before I found you. So thank you.
Quote: Remember that Dr. Phil doesn't say you can make your M work on your own. He says you have to earn your way out. And you have done that in spades.
I love that concept. I too think that I have given it enough time. If this was just about my M, I would say you're right. I've earned my way out. I mean, really, how long am I supposed to continue in a M where I am not allowed in my bed and my H refuses to kiss me? All else aside and even if he never was a jerk again in the manner he has been......I have not kissed my H or slept in my own bed in over 14 months. Yeah, it's been long enough. The thing that I'm having trouble getting past is this: Am I unhappier being married to my H than I would be living half the time without my kids? Not right now, that's for sure. Those little angels are my life and I am their mother....every night I sing Billy Joel's lullabye to my daughter and I tell her "I will never leave you...". She's only two. Maybe someday my happiness in a partner will become more center stage, but right now my kids are my priority. We take vacations. We go out to dinner. We do homework. We play. We are a great family and I can't take that away from themn b/c I cheated on my H and now he is an a@@ to me.
Quote: Leave while it's still useful, whether that's tomorrow or next month or five years from now.
I can't imagine that this wouldn't always be the case. It would always still be useful as long as he is the father of my children. If he changed, I would always return whether that's tomorrow or next month or five years from now.
Quote: Don't stay until you're less than you are. That won't help them. If you need to be scared silly to see this point I can arrange for you to talk to Steff.
That would be if I left. Less than I am. Honestly, I feel confident that someday my desire for a parnter will come back front and center. When that time comes and I feel like my children are old enough to maintain a secure R with even when I am gone.....I'll lay it on the line with H. And I'll mean it. I might be fat. I might be old. But that's ok. Ya know?
Jabez, I'm so glad that you've somehow been helped by my situation. I appreciate you coming back with your compliments
Quote: BTW, on the way home today, I'm listening to Steely Dan Aja instead of MDW KLA. They call Alabama the Crimson Tide, call me Deacon Blues
Good for you!!
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
Well, if you're finding solace through your children right now, what can I say? It's your life, Heather. My children are much older than yours, and I'll tell you that my thinking is that finding comfort in one's circumstances through one's children, is a refuge, not an answer. You're not ready... is my take.
I can't imagine that this wouldn't always be the case. It would always still be useful as long as he is the father of my children. If he changed, I would always return whether that's tomorrow or next month or five years from now.
Then all I'm saying is...avoid high school reunions!
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
Heather- one piece of advice I remember from this past year and a half, when I was trying to decide what I needed to do, about leaving H or staying home and having him move back in....What do you know for sure? Start with that. The one thing I knew for sure was that my dad needed me. I also knew that I did not want to live in the same house as H. That's where I started.
So, what do you know for sure?
BTW, another October Baby here. Mine's the 8th. My little one just turned 4, I have another one turning 7 this week. So many well balance Libras in one house, it should be heaven, ha ha. Give him kisses from me. B
Each experience in life has formed me, become part of me, made me stronger.
I like Mellanie's reply. Start there. What do you know for sure. And I do believe there will come a time when what you have to do becomes clearer and easier to do. I don't think you are ready yet - you still have too many doubts and fears. Keep listening to what you really want and make a decision when you are ready.
WCB
God grant me the serenity,
to accept the things I cannot change,
To change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.
- Reinhold Niebuhr
My daughters are young teenagers, so they still live at home with me. I can understand your feelings about keeping the family together, however you define it. I still want to be a husband. I want to be a dad. I want to be a family . . . and so do our daughters. I have no idea how I would be reacting if I didn't live at home with the girls, but I do and so it colors the way I think, feel and act. Maybe LBP's (Left Behind Parents) are willing to put up with more nonsense b/c we have a certain vision of the future we want for our children and for our selves. Maybe we are willing to hang in a little longer and go gray or dark one more time, turn one more 180, or just wait a little longer to see if the fog lifts b/c of that vision. So if we are taking refuge in our children thru the storm, and our patience and DB'ing efforts result in the sunshine and changes we're looking for, then good for everyone.
I'm saying all of this under the assumption that there is no physical or emotional harm being done to you or to your children.
The day may come when I have to tell the girls that I am letting go. I know that they will be dissapointed and it will hurt me to do it. I hope that they see that I will have done all that I could before letting go. I wish you peace in your decision.
