Heather, you've got to take matters into your own hands and out of his. He has to loosen his grip on this. It may be hard, but perhaps he'll rise to the occasion. It would be large of him to do so. But if he continues to act like a jerk off, you'll have to tell him to beat it. Good luck in handling this prickly situation.
I have to admit NY, when I read this post I did not detect one iota of sexual innuendo and planned to seriously comment on it later.....am I dense or what???? It wasn't until a post or two later that I realized what you guys were doing!! That is too funny for a bunch of reasons!!!
Well, my PMA was doing pretty good, now not so good. There is good news and not so good news. First the good news. My H sees a change in me. He ackowledged it (good news), but not necessarily in a good way (not so good news) which I'm sure doesn't surprise anyone here. (Anna, say it. Heather's H can KMA!!) He said he can pinpoint it to the day, the time even, where I became human again. Nice, huh? The even nicer thing is that the whole 'time' thing seems to *prove* that I was crazy before. He isn't acting any differently, so for me to so drastically change my behavior must mean that I have now returned to the world of the sane. And it means that since I was crazy, he doesn't have to validate or acknowledge anything that I've said or felt this past year. *AND* he gets to ridicule me for it by reiterating that I was crazy. I told him that there was not a 'time' that my changes happened, it was a process, is still a process. He said no it was not a process. There was no gradual improvement. It just was. I said that the situation he is referring to (which he couldn't expand on b/c he didn't remember, but yet the 'time' was so outstanding in his mind )was probably just an instance where I had effectively portrayed something that I have been internalizing for a very long time. He said oh, did you learn that online? I have to admit guys....I am not detached. He pissed me off BIG TIME. The whole conversation started b/c he said "you know, I've been thinking. Even before the thing with your dad you asked me why I felt your whole family was against me. I've determined that it's because you were irrational, spontaneous, had messed up views about our life and our marriage and you were spewing it all to them". Isn't that nice? I did not call names. I did not insult. But my voice raised and I repeated back all the things he said to me and said hmm, wonder why Heather doesn't want to continue this conversation? I told him I was not irrational but our last year has been very turbulent and many times during this year I had wanted to leave him and that may help explain some of my 'irrational behavior'. He was sure to point out that this was only his point of view. I told him I was not discussing this. Some other things were said about my family, a few sentences of rehashing things that have already been said. Then he got to the part above where he talked about the 'moment' I became a human being again and when I started talking about how change is a process that starts on the inside sometimes long before any outside difference in behavior is detected as one decides what their past mistakes have been, what they will take responsibility for and what they will not....can't remember exactly what else I said, but he started laughing. I verified that he was indeed laughing and I told him I was hanging up now. Bye. I could have handled it better. He already accuses me of being crazy, I have to be VERY careful about raising my voice. And I interrupt a lot when I see where the sentence is going, i.e. "you've been irrational, spontaneous..." Interrupt "what are you talking about?" That kind of stuff. Am I truly supposed to validate that BS???? Interrupting is never a good thing. What should I have done? I probably should have heard him out. Then just say I disagree, but I understand what you are saying.
Burgbud said something the other day about keeping the bad guy position vs giving it back to the other person. I just made a real connection here because I always end up feeling like the bad guy instead of letting him keep it. I got defensive. I interrupted. I raised my voice. I ultimately hung up on him. But *HE* was the one saying all the hurtful things. So there you go. WHY WHY WHY do I always take the bad guy position back in conflicts where H is the one being the creep????
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
Last night as I was falling asleep, I remembered that when H told me I was irrational this past year and I reacted with disbelief that he would say that(even if just for fear of messing up the progress we've made...) he kept telling me "Heather, you know it, I know you do". I think about that and then I look at the title of my thread and all at once, I *know* that I'm not crazy. He has tried to make me doubt myself, tried to paint his view as reality by disregarding my feelings and my perceptions. And it's been going on a long time, but I've been aware that I need to listen to my inner voice as evidenced by the titles of my last two threads. His statements above are just a recent example of an ongoing reason that it is so important for me to learn to trust my own voice.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
...he kept telling me "Heather, you know it, I know you do". I think about that and then I look at the title of my thread and all at once, I *know* that I'm not crazy.
YES!
It's hard because we don't want to blow off our portion of responsibility for the sitches we're in. But if H is trying to get you to buy in to the way he labels you, maybe W is doing a bit of the same to me. They both seem to want to categorize us to get something they want. And I'll bet one reason they both continue to do it is because they notice we consider these labels they give us and it moves us at least a little bit and for at least a little while closer to a place they want us to be.
So I'm very happy you KNOW that you're not crazy! I know it and everybody here knows it to. This might be a good time for a "I don't believe I'll let you shame me today, Matt, if that's alright with you."
I'll start: "I don't believe I'll let you shame me today, Steff, if that's alright with you."
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
And I interrupt a lot when I see where the sentence is going, i.e. "you've been irrational, spontaneous..." Interrupt "what are you talking about?" That kind of stuff. Am I truly supposed to validate that BS????
You can validate his perception.
Look at what the choices get you. If you disagree, he'll step up his offensive. If you agree, it helps to take the wind out of his sails. But just agreeing isn't all you can do.
"You've been irrational" is his perception. You don't believe you've acted irrationally. So his perception can be validated with something like "Well, I may not seem to be acting rationally to you all the time", but then I'd ask for an example: "Can you tell me of an instance where you think I was irrational?" Then have him explain why it seemed irrational to him. He'll give you his perception of it, which you then can examine and see where it differs from your perception of it.
Quote: He ackowledged it (good news), but not necessarily in a good way (not so good news) which I'm sure doesn't surprise anyone here. (Anna, say it. Heather's H can KMA!!)
I'm starting to feel left out Anna!! Everyone else's partner got a KMA!!
Quote: It's hard because we don't want to blow off our portion of responsibility for the sitches we're in.
It's quite a balance isn't it?
Quote: They both seem to want to categorize us to get something they want.
This is so true. In my case, H wants me to admit to being crazy b/c then a) he gets to dismiss all of my feelings and concerns of the past year by getting me to agree that I was 'crazy'. He takes no responsibility for *any*thing that way. And b) he gets to dismiss any changes I've made as simply 'returning to a human being'. He is sitting on the throne saying, 'Well Heather, this is the way you should have been all along, no cookies here'. And I don't want a freakin cookie anyway. Don't acknowledge a single change if you don't want, but don't acknowledge the changes and then twist them to use it to your advantage....that hurts It hurts because I've placed a lot of value and belief in the idea that by changing myself I can change my H. No one ever mentioned that your partner may accuse you of having been crazy before and the fact that you've made changes is just, in effect, an admission of your own guilt.
Bud, in your case, your W wants to categorize you as the 'person at fault in this divorce, b/c I cannot bear to own up to the idea that I am throwing my fixable M away and severely disrupting my childrens' lives forever so that I can be with another man'.
At my counseling session today, we did a little bit of role playing where I was supposed to be Matt. So I started off much like he started off with me last night. But my C's answers were so short that I couldn't really think of anything to say next. Point being that the less I give him when he is confrontational, the less he has to grab onto and run with. Now, I know this, we've talked about it. But actually doing the role playing thing as I struggled to come up with something to say next, really drove home the point. LESS IS MORE HEATHER!!! In the past, I have struggled with acting submissive with H, so I have been reluctant to practice silence or the less is more approach for fear that he would think I was agreeing with him.
Quote: You can validate his perception.
During the role play, it became obvious that the less I say, he will eventually prompt me for some sort of answer, even if it's in a rude way, like 'how are we supposed to have a conversation if you won't say anything?' at which point I can tell him that I understand that I may not always appear rational and an example might further clarify his point to me (thanks NY!).
I don't believe I'll let you shame me today Matt, if you don't mind!!! Ha!!
What do you think of this: "Matt, I feel like you were trying to tell me something genuine last night, although I really stopped listening at the point where I felt you were attacking my sanity. I'd like to hear what you wanted to say. From past discussions, I've heard you say that you are concerned with my family's perceptions of you as a result of what I may or may not have told them about you. This is a valid concern. Is that how you feel?"
I need to start of with 'what I've heard you say' otherwise, he won't take the bait to enter into another discussion about it. Even with the bait, he may opt to pass on the discussion.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
Here is Web's definition of irrational: ...not endowed with coherence, not governed by or according to reason (~fears)
Here is Web's definition of spontaneous: ...proceeding from natural feeling or native tendency without external constraint, arising from a momentary impulse
Take these two definitions in contrast with the word I took H to mean, i.e. crazy: unsound, mad or insane, impractical, erratic
Now that I see the definitions, perhaps I shouldn't be so offended? I mean, is there anyone out there who has followed my situation that can tell me I haven't acted primarily out of emotion this past year and that those emotions have taken dramatic changes at times? Probably not. Yikes. The words have such negative connotations, but the definitions really are not so bad and are probably rather indicative of what most of us have been through on the roller coaster. Comments?
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
Now that I see the definitions, perhaps I shouldn't be so offended?
Erk. I don't wanna write this post.
In "old me" world (and maybe in new me world, gotta think about that one), "irrational" is about the worst thing I could call you. If you're irrational it means I don't have to listen to you. There's no reason for me to even consider what you're saying because it's irrational. And it means we should obviously do things my way because I'm rational and you're not.
There is no shortage of examples of me doing this to Steff. One is the getting up with the baby rationalization I mentioned in a post somewhere. Why should I wake all the way up in the middle of the night, go get the baby and bring him to her to feed? She has to get up anyway, right? The only reason we both should have to get up is if she's just trying to make things even with me. Otherwise, isn't it beneficial for at least one of us to have gotten a full night's sleep?
She eventually started calling this "Tracy-logic". And still does, as far as that goes. If it sounds good and seems to be logical but is actually bullsh1t, then that is Tracy-logic. She and I occasionally disagree on whether or not it actually is bullsh1t, but I am willing to listen to her now and at least consider what she's saying. And much to my surprise and chagrin, if I think about it for awhile before forming my opinion on her ideas, she's right a lot of the time. She's actually pretty smart. (Though in some area of our current life I would still maintain she's a bit irrational.)
It might also be helpful to note that to old-me, "irrational" and "emotional" might as well be the same word. If you make an emotional decision that means you considered more than just the facts so you weren't in a position to make the best possible decision. Emotional == irrational. Coming from me, both those words were a pejorative (heh, I always wanted to use "pejorative" in a sentence...).
So you can still validate his perception, but in my opinion you won't be well served to minimize his use of the term "irrational". Sorry.
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
)was probably just an instance where I had effectively portrayed something that I have been internalizing for a very long time. He said oh, did you learn that online? I have to admit guys....I am not detached. He pissed me off BIG TIME. The whole conversation started b/c he said "you know, I've been thinking. Even before the thing with your dad you asked me why I felt your whole family was against me. I've determined that it's because you were irrational, spontaneous, had messed up views about our life and our marriage and you were spewing it all to them". Isn't that nice? I did not call names. I did not insult. But my voice raised and I repeated back all the things he said to me and said hmm, wonder why Heather doesn't want to continue this conversation? I told him I was not irrational but our last year has been very turbulent and many times during this year I had wanted to leave him and that may help explain some of my 'irrational behavior'. He was sure to point out that this was only his point of view. I told him I was not discussing this. Some other things were said about my family, a few sentences of rehashing things that have already been said. Then he got to the part above where he talked about the 'moment' I became a human being again and when I started talking about how change is a process that starts on the inside sometimes long before any outside difference in behavior is detected as one decides what their past mistakes have been, what they will take responsibility for and what they will not....can't remember exactly what else I said, but he started laughing. I verified that he was indeed laughing and I told him I was hanging up now. Bye. 
It hurts because I've placed a lot of value and belief in the idea that by changing myself I can change my H. No one ever mentioned that your partner may accuse you of having been crazy before and the fact that you've made changes is just, in effect, an admission of your own guilt.