Learning to trust myself II

[anna123]

Heather... I'm so sorry things are so frustrating. There are days when it must feel like you're banging your head against the wall. I don't often post to you because I feel out of my depth with your sitch... I never have any useful advice. Just my usual smart alec comments. But I read you all the time and am on your side.

Listen to Chuck about forgiveness... you deserve to let some into your life. Even if you have to fake it for the first little while, ok?

[heatherg]

Thanks Anna. I feel out of my depth with my sitch too

I have thought a little about forgiveness. I cannot help but hear H's words in my head whenever I think about it though....."Oh, isn't that convenient?? The person who cheats on her H, has never been sorry, thinks she can still do whatever she wants, is now forgiving herself for what she did. Isn't that nice?"

We leave to head back to VA today. 15 hours in the car, H will inevitably bring up the events of the "vacation". I think my goal is to be silent, maybe try some validation?

[Burgbud]

I cannot help but hear H's words in my head...

Doesn't matter. At all. What he thinks. So what?

Forgiving yourself is not for him or about him. For that matter, forgiving him is not for him. It's for you. It's all in your own head. What comes out of his head or what may be rattling around inside it is on him and not you.

One of my favorite sig lines on these boards was something very similar to: "Forgiveness means giving up all hope of a better past." Another of my favorite ideas (Anna may recognize this one) is that if there was justice in the world, we'd pay for our mistakes once and only once. But instead, we pay for them over and over. Other people fling our mistakes back at us when it somehow suits their purposes to do so. But our internal judgement is even worse and we make ourselves pay again and again. In fact, if we stopped making ourselves pay, it wouldn't matter if other people flung it back at us. We'd realize they're doing so only says something about them, and not us.


I think my goal is to be silent, maybe try some validation?

Or maybe act "as if" and try some validation? Do as much as you can handle but no more. Try to get some rest, especially some much needed mental rest.

[anna123]

Indeed Bud... I agree...

[NYsurvivor]

I cannot help but hear H's words in my head whenever I think about it though....."Oh, isn't that convenient?? The person who cheats on her H, has never been sorry, thinks she can still do whatever she wants, is now forgiving herself for what she did. Isn't that nice?"

Forgiving yourself is not something that needs to be announced to your partner. Nor does forgiving yourself require your forgiveness to meet whatever definition or standards your H places on it.

I am not religious so forgiveness has been a relatively scarce word in my life.

The "forgiving" read about in a judeo-christian theological sense need not be your definition of forgiveness.

Forgiving yourself can be that you choose not to let your past mistakes, or those of others, continue to grieve you, understanding that we all err, small and large, but make mistakes nonetheless. It doesn't mean the hurt or guilt disappears upon making the choice to forgive. It doesn't mean you forget, it doesn't mean you condone the past conduct. It's more like letting go. You're already living through the consequences daily, you're already remorseful over what you have done, you're even actively trying to repair the damage. To continue to suffer guilt from the acts of the past, that guilt has long ago served its purpose to help put you on the path you are on today. You can't affect the past anymore, today is all you have to work with.

Some folks can't see an intentional breach, such as an affair, as a "mistake", but I think they confuse the meaning of the word "mistake" with "accident". A "mistake" is the result of bad judgment. I don't think anyone would argue that getting into an affair is not bad judgment.

If your relationship is to thrive happily, sooner or later forgiving yourself, and your H letting go of the past, has to occur.

H will inevitably bring up the events of the "vacation". I think my goal is to be silent, maybe try some validation?

Of course, that "letting go" on Matt's part isn't likely to happen anytime soon.

Sure, validate, let him vent. You know what he brings up is going to be a bunch of stuff that really aren't the issues. If he really wants to work on the relationship with you, I think it's time to bring in a MC to help change these patterns that have been and are being established. You're losing your feelings for him the way things are going.

[Burgbud]

Hey, Heather!

Are you back? What's up?

(If Bill Engvall reads this board, I'm gonna get a sign for that first one.)

[heatherg]

Hey Bud, I am back. I couldn't help but smile as we passed "Dumfries"! Thanks so much for checking up on me, especially in light of all you have going on. Although I haven't posted, I have been keeping up with all of your threads.

Before we left MI, I asked my Dad to shake H's hand. I explained that I wasn't asking him to apologize or even say any words at all, as I understand he really meant what he said to H, I am not asking that he recant his words. He said he would shake H's hand.
H came out to my parents' house to pick us up and help load up our stuff. My dad extended his hand and said "Matt....drive with care hey? We'll see you again". It meant a lot to me and after H was in the truck I thanked my Dad, there were tears in both of our eyes. It was an emotional moment to witness my father behave more graciously than my H was able to muster. I was proud of him.

The trip home went well actually. There was discussion, but not in an argumentative way. Oddly enough, if not for the words exchanged between H and my dad, the vacation was a good thing for us. That incident looms large unfortunately, as it poses it's own set of problems.

I had an interesting conversation with my sister yesterday. She basically told me that she would no longer be accepting my H as a part of the family and that there wasn't any way she would subject the rest of the family to his presence at her retirement from the USAF ceremony in January. We were all headed to Utah for her retirement, and she basically said Matt was no longer invited after the way he disrespected Dad. It was the last straw after the way he's treated me. I sat there and listened feeling as though there is nothing good that can possible ever come of this crap. They should not be forced to accept Matt. However, I cannot effectively be a part of both families, not wholly yet separately....I guess I'd have to do what I had to do, but I couldn't understand how in the next breath she says the family will support me...

Anyway, during the conversation, "the kiss" came up with OM, much in the same light as it did with you Bud, where you referred to it as simply "a kiss". I had to clarify with her that it was more than just "a kiss" the same way I had to clarify here. Which leads me to the point that I have apparently not explained my situation clearly enough and in it's entirety. Not on purpose, it just seems that until now, I've greatly focused on the physical aspect of what happened with OM, while not thinking long enough on the fact that I twisted the trust in my M to a great degree. I can talk more about that later. My point here is that after I more fully explained that part to my sister, her view of my H changed pretty significantly. She still does not excuse much of his behavior of course, but at least she understands *why* is doing some of the things he's doing, such as not riding in my car. She knew OM was in my car, but I guess I never explained the context in which that happened. Now she seems to understand his perspective a bit more, which is good. Although I want my family to be supportive of me, I do not want them to excuse or blow off what I did to my M. Funny how H could feel they are/were doing that when I never uttered one word about their statements to me. I guess he could just tell somehow....weird.

Anyway, the context in which I saw OM seems to shed new light on my sin. I never meant to portray things in any manner other than the manner in which they occurred, but I think this says something about where most of my guilt lies and perhaps why I haven't been able to entirely see H's perspective.

Do these facts change how you all view my situation as well? I can post more details about the times I saw OM as well. As H knows all of these details, it would seem necessary for me to post all the details to give a better understanding.

[Burgbud]

It was an emotional moment to witness my father behave more graciously than my H was able to muster. I was proud of him.

Cool!


I had an interesting conversation with my sister yesterday...

Give her time. She may feel differently by November (or December). At the very least she'll be more willing to listen to how you feel about being put on the spot by this.


Do these facts change how you all view my situation as well?

I don't think you were misleading about it earlier. It was just very easy for me to focus on "just a kiss" given the nature of my W's PA. And while the reality is more complicated than the Accidental Affair idea behind "just a kiss", it strikes me that makes it more of a wake up call for H. It wasn't just lack of impulse control. Although you really did very little with it, the level of involvement shows there was clearly something you were looking for that you weren't getting in your M. It's one thing to just get mad and pissy about one kiss, but (easy for me to say since I'm immersed in this world right now) when there's a little more pursuit than that, it's time for some soul searching and some problem solving. I don't believe he thinks you're just an untrustworthy person. I think he's scared of looking at his role in all this. My suggestion would be that he start working on himself now while you still want this to work.

I hope he listens but I'm not sure he can hear me from here, even if I SHOUT REALLY LOUD!

[heatherg]

Give her time. She may feel differently by November (or December). At the very least she'll be more willing to listen to how you feel about being put on the spot by this.

I sure hope so. My sister is my best friend.

I don't think you were misleading about it earlier.

Good!

It was just very easy for me to focus on "just a kiss" given the nature of my W's PA.

I understand where you are coming from. If only we could learn from each other's lessons, but it seems there are some mistakes that people cannot learn from until they make them on their own (I am speaking for my own mistakes as well). I think back a lot to Anna's admission that had her H been immediately remorseful, her behavior toward her H would have been distinctly different from what it is today, and not for the better. I truly think that would be the case for lots of people, it's a natural human reaction. When both parties agree that one's actions are so incredibly, it takes a pretty big person to move past it.

Although you really did very little with it, the level of involvement shows there was clearly something you were looking for that you weren't getting in your M.

I was very honest with my H (perhaps too honest? ) when I told him I didn't know how far I would have let things go with OM. I cannot claim credit for not taking things further, only for being honest about my actions when asked and then having the common sense to cut it out once H's reaction brought me back to reality.

I don't believe he thinks you're just an untrustworthy person. I think he's scared of looking at his role in all this.

You'd think he'd be more scared of *not* looking at his role in all this, scared that an A could happen again. I do think he recognizes that I've been a trustworthy and honest person in the past.

My suggestion would be that he start working on himself now while you still want this to work.

That would be my suggestion as well, lol. But I know that I also have a lot more work to do. I have been thinking lately that I'm not very good at loving gestures, loving words, validation, appreciation. I act nonchalant about gestures that actually mean a lot to me. I don't know why I do that.

[Burgbud]

I was very honest with my H (perhaps too honest?...

I absolutely do not think so. I don't think you can be too honest, unless you're intentionally using honesty to hurt somebody as occasionally happens in these sitches ("first OP and I did this then we did this and that was really great and then we did this other thing over here..."). As long as you're just answering questions it's best to get the truth out there so you're not hiding anything later. People who are already suspicious will sniff that out in a heartbeat.


You'd think he'd be more scared of *not* looking at his role in all this, scared that an A could happen again.

The more I think about it the more I think it's about control or maybe the illusion of control that we all have at least a little of. If our spouse strays a bit then is remorseful and comes back, we can continue to believe that we have a bit of control over them. Maybe use shame and/or anger to "keep it from happening again". So our life still works for us. But when the spouse completely abandons their responsibility to the M it becomes crystal clear whether we like it or not that we have no control over them. Sometimes it has to sink in, but I think we all get to that point sooner rather than later. Then we realize the only thing left for us to do is take what responsibility we can and work on ourselves since that's the only thing we do control.


...I'm not very good at loving gestures, loving words, validation, appreciation. I act nonchalant about gestures that actually mean a lot to me. I don't know why I do that.

How were you taught to behave in a R? What was your example?

I realized with disgust one day last week how very like my father I am. He's a good guy though he certainly has his flaws, but I was disgusted because I've always prided myself on being extremely independent. Yet here I've been a carbon copy of my dad in so many ways I can't believe it.

Though I can say, for absolutely sure, that he's no fan of DB'ing! So I've got that going for me.