Learning to trust myself II

[Burgbud]

Oh, Heather. I'm so sorry. I can't believe one fight and he's throwing D and splitting time with the kids at you. And in front of your family like that...I don't know if it makes me madder or sadder.

Good for Chuck for trying to keep you on the straight and narrow. And I'm hugely impressed that you were able to offer any sort of apology to H after that. But...

...I feel guilty for bringing this all on.

Please don't. Feeling guilty for more than a second after that is feeling guilty for not being perfect. That's a cheeseless tunnel for sure. Look back at what you posted and compare what came out of your mouth with what came out of his. You didn't control him. Give him the respect of allowing him to be accountable for his part of the R. Don't take that on yourself.


It is not up to the person who betrayed to question those reassurances.

Gotta disagree. A year later? After you kissed a guy? Time to ask a few questions. He was completely out of town for long stretches, yet he can't handle you going to a bar with a friend, which you invited him to, in your hometown? That's not about trust or reassurance. That's about reminding you of what happened. "Heather met a guy in a bar and kissed him so Heather can't go to bars any more."

And now the kids are pawns. Unbelievable. Whether you can make this work or not I really, really hope he gets a few things straightened out in his head, sooner rather than later.

Good luck, Heather. I'm sending you all the good vibes I can muster. Work on your PMA, enjoy as much time with your parents as you can, and have no doubt that you are terrific for having handled all this with more dignity than I could have mustered. Cry if it makes you feel better. And stay strong.

[NYsurvivor]

I tell H "Friend and I are going to dinner and a couple drinks afterward if you'd like to come". I didn't want it to sound like I'd made plans for him [even though I sort of did]. He said "If I'd like to come? So, if I don't come, you'll still be going?" I said "yes, probably".

He sees you doing things without him that touch upon his distrust and that irks him. Maybe it would be better to go to him first before confirming plans and say "Matt, old friend and I are thinking about the four of us getting together for dinner tomorrow night. I'd like that. OK?"

My parents listen to us argue in total silence, but this time when my Dad hears H say we are leaving and that he has lawyers to see when we get home, my Dad (who is currently in a wheelchair, I don't think I'll ever get this scene out of my head) says to H "If you take those kids and leave, you'll no longer be a part of this family". H doesn't even look at my father and says "That will be a relief".

he said he was not about to let some man (meaning my father) tell him how to run his family!

Two things: 1. Your dad's reaction was of the "attack" kind, and not advice. No doubt underlying your dad's reaction is a certain amount of animosity toward Matt that's been built up for some time.

2. The role of a FIL is to be a coach. When my ex soon after our breakup flew to stay with her dad for about a month, according to her, he didn't know what to say and pretty much just let her do what she felt she needed to do. Had he acted on his role as a father and FIL, he could've told her to go back to her husband and work it out, it being the right thing to do. Instead, she was making plans with the OM for her new life, and had the OM fly out to meet up with her after she left her dad's house, apparently not wanting OM, whom at that moment dad didn't like, knowing of him for 20 years, meet her there.

I ask him "so you're filing for D when we get home, right, is that what you're saying?" He says "Sure". I say "No, H, not 'sure', yes or no?" He says "Sure."

Isn't that Matt being his "let's frustrate Heather by not complying with what she's asking of me"?

I go out to get the carseats out of his truck and he locks his truck and puts the keys in his pocket.

That's control, isn't it?

I said "H, don't blame my father for this." He says "You've got to be kidding, right? The man needs to mind his own business." I said "H, we were fighting in HIS HOUSE." He says "That's because we're *always* at *his* house, where else would he like us to fight?"

That's Matt changing the topic. The topic was not placing blame with your dad just because he reacted because you guys were fighting in front of him right in his living room.

I guess I'm upset b/c it doesn't seem like it should cause these problems

True. It could've gone like this:

"Friend and I are going to dinner and a couple drinks afterward if you'd like to come".

"I'm not comfortable with you going ahead and making those kinds of plans without consulting me".

Wouldn't that open the door to a more honest discussion? You're doing well, Heather, but Matt's gotta learn how to handle himself better.

I was talking with a girl friend this morning and she was telling me about her old boyfriend. He's got some insecurity problems or something and doesn't handle it well. She told me how she likes to socialize, but that he feels intimidated by the quality of people she likes to shmooze with. So, she'll speak with people and he'd stay a few steps behind. Then when she returns to him, he asks, "Are you f*cking him?" Oh man. So she offered that he should just stay with her when she's in those little social circles to be reassured. But he refused.

Like you, she was putting the ball in his court, but they don't have the wherewithal to pick that ball up and work with it. He, like Matt, seeks to prevent their fears from being realized by exerting control on others, rather than permitting others to be themselves and seeking solutions for their fears that are agreeable to both.

By grasping so tightly however, they stomp out feelings of love in the other person, the other feels like a prisoner, and is the recipient of hurtful language, and so by being so clingy, they help their fears actually become realized, as in this girl's case, for she broke up with him when she couldn't take that, or didn't want to take that, anymore.

The way it works is like this: if you're free to be yourself, and you're committed to the relationship, then he has nothing to fear. If however, you're tempted and cross the line and get yourself involved with another, then that points to other problems. The problem isn't about socializing.

[Jabez]

H,

It was difficult to read your posting regarding Tuesday. You said that its been a year since "the kiss", but is sounds like H is still locked on to his feelings of betrayal and anger. I agree w/NY's alternate scenario for the conversation regarding going out w/friends. Reading your words doesn't give the true tone of your voice, but your thoughts give some insight. Although I agree with your thought of not wanting to sound like you made plans for H, NY's approach was "softer" and more inviting.

I've been reading chapters of a book on-line by Dr. Gunzburg entitled "Survive an Affair Now". The book is written for both spouses. Take a look at the section entitled Taking Responsibility for Your Relationship: Seeing Through the Eyes of Your Partner I've learned much by looking at the sitch thru the eyes of WAW. Maybe you could take a look at the "conversation" of Tue thru the eyes of H? and then "the kiss"? Maybe you will see something new, maybe not.

Don't quit!

[Jabez]

Heather,

One more thought on your convo w/H. Check out this article on the "Break Free From the Affair" website. What I REALLY Want to Say to That @#$&!! I worked w/DrH for a while in the begnning and he helped me understand how to communicate w/WAW.

[heatherg]

I can't believe one fight and he's throwing D and splitting time with the kids at you.

One fight, a fight which he is now referring to as a "silly argument" His exact words were "Your father/family disowned me because of a silly argument". The kids were in the room, so I only said "My father didn't disown you. He said 'If'. I wanted to say, so you threaten to divorce me, say we're no longer a family, say we're cutting our vacation short by 4 days, all over a 'silly argument'? In that case, since you are holding my father fully accountable for his words, do you plan to take any responsibility for yours????" But I said nothing. I will ask him that later, when the kids are not in the room.

After you kissed a guy?

To my H, what I did was more than kissing, it was dating. I saw someone on five separate occassions, and my H knows that. In all fairness, the betrayal does go a little deeper than a spur of the moment kiss.

He was completely out of town for long stretches, yet he can't handle you going to a bar with a friend, which you invited him to, in your hometown?

H mentioned that he is being reasonable. That if he was really trying to control me, he would be laying down rules on all the things that bother him such as business trips, etc. Going to the bar without him is a reasonable thing to ask me not to do as far as he is concerned.

Maybe it would be better to go to him first before confirming plans and say "Matt, old friend and I are thinking about the four of us getting together for dinner tomorrow night. I'd like that. OK?"

H said this is all he wanted. For me to acknowledge his feelings on the issue and phrase my 'invite' in a manner that reflected that as opposed to the 'I'm going with or without you' attitude that I conveyed. My invite to H says a lot about me. I am trying to win the war of my independence in one battle and therefore, my actions are far too passionate. I need to take things one battle at a time and treat each event as just that event, not as a loss or a win on my freedoms. I am also fighting for the 17 year old girl that allowed herself to be controlled for so long. I am absolutely determined to never go back there. Perhaps my conviction is skewing my reactions a little?

That's not about trust or reassurance. That's about reminding you of what happened.

That is totally how I feel about it. But, it is just one of many perspectives. Maybe I need to listen to what he is telling me and believe that he wants only for me to acknowledge his feelings, not that he is trying to control everything I do?

And now the kids are pawns. Unbelievable.

This is by far the hardest part. Yesterday, H and I were supposed to have a beach day with the kids. H came out to my parents' to pick us up and I asked him to join me in another room (away from the kids, staying true to my vow). I asked him what the plans were for the kids for the next couple of days b/c my SIL on my side is coming into town with her three kids and it is very important for me to have my kids spend time with them. I do not get along very well with my brother and my SIL so we won't be seeing them much anymore since they've moved back to MI (I could and would bury my hatchett to see the kids, but H hates my brother and refused to go to his house). H would not answer me, just said "I don't know". So I agonized over whether or not to spend the day with them, thinking that if I gave him a day, he would have to give me a day with no questions asked and no games. So, I said I wasn't going and that I would want the kids tomorrow, that not going today was my only way to assure that the kids would get to play with their cousins. H said "I plan to work out today, so I guess I'll have to get a cousin of mine to watch the kids then?" I said nothing. I helped H get the kids in their seats and told them to have fun. H said "Whether or not you come today will have no bearing on tomorrow". I told the kids I loved them and shut the truck door and went in the house. Holy cow, was that hard. I went and sat in the sunroom and a few minutes later, H's truck pulled back in the driveway. I couldn't believe it. He came in the house and was ready to talk. He said they want me to come. We had a nice discussion about the 'silly argument' we had and I ended up going with them and spending the day.

Good luck, Heather. I'm sending you all the good vibes I can muster. Work on your PMA, enjoy as much time with your parents as you can, and have no doubt that you are terrific for having handled all this with more dignity than I could have mustered.

Thank you so much Bud. Your words mean more than you can know.

[Burgbud]

I saw someone on five separate occassions,

I can see that somewhat. Did you feel like you were going to see this someone? Because my impression was more that you were going to see your brother's band and someone sought you out. I get wound up about this because I'm projecting a bit. I just want to tell him, "Dude, it's right there in front of you, GRAB IT before it's too late! If you'll give a freaking inch you'll get back a mile."


Maybe I need to listen to what he is telling me and believe that he wants only for me to acknowledge his feelings, not that he is trying to control everything I do?

Sounds like something that's certainly worth a try!

And I agree that he's not trying to control everything you do. There's still just some edge about this bar thing that makes it seem like he's doing you a favor by limiting his demands to this one thing. Like he doesn't want control over everything so he should be allowed to control the things he wants. I dunno.


We had a nice discussion about the 'silly argument' we had and I ended up going with them and spending the day.

Good!


Your words mean more than you can know.

Thanks; I can use all the validation I can get this morning.

[NYsurvivor]

One fight, a fight which he is now referring to as a "silly argument" His exact words were "Your father/family disowned me because of a silly argument".

What your dad did was to make a *threat* as his reaction to what was unfolding in front of him, OK? Listen, Heather, your dad is no more knowledgable of better communication skills than the next guy, OK? IMO, the question before you and Matt really is, "is dad's remark really a cause for the two of you to argue over or discuss anymore?". IMO, it's not. Why not? Because it belongs to dad, from whom it came, and not Matt and not you. You two are not puppets whose strings are to be pulled and tugged and for whom the issues are determined by the words that come out of someone else's mouth.

Choose your battles wisely.

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Maybe it would be better to go to him first before confirming plans and say "Matt, old friend and I are thinking about the four of us getting together for dinner tomorrow night. I'd like that. OK?"

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H said this is all he wanted.

It's not beyond expectation at all to go about things as if you're a couple, not an individual. That means not speaking/committing on behalf of your partner. If someone calls and says 'hey let's all 4 go out Friday night' and you commit to it, you're not considering your partner. The better response is along the lines of , "Sounds great, lemmee see if Matt can make it (because you cannot speak for Matt) and I'll get back to you".

[heatherg]

Jabez~
Thanks for your suggestions. I will check out the links you gave me when I get back from vacation and have a little more time. You mentioned my tone of voice when I speak. My words to H may be rational, but I know my tone of voice is typically aggressive/very defensive. This is something I continually struggle with. It's like trying to change the way I walk.....as soon as I'm not actively thinking about it, which is often, I slip right back into the way I've always been.

[heatherg]

your dad is no more knowledgable of better communication skills than the next guy

Yeah, I know. This is kind of what I wanted to say when you said the role of FIL is to be a coach/role model, but I haven't had time to reply to your specific post until now. My dad simply can't fill that role, he's a good guy these days, but he hasn't always been. There's nothing else I have to say about that.

"is dad's remark really a cause for the two of you to argue over or discuss anymore?"......IMO, it's not. Why not? Because it belongs to dad, from whom it came, and not Matt and not you.

I couldn't agree more. I wouldn't say that H and I have argued extensively about it, H simply keeps bringing it up. One of those times I explained that my father did not disown him. One time. That's all I expect to say about it, except to suggest that he consider taking as much responsibility for his own words as he seems to want to place on my dad. That's all I have to say on the matter. I know that this is not my battle, however, it has made our vacation very strained as H will no longer come out to my parents' house and as you all know, he also hates to be w/out his kids which makes it extremely difficult for the kids to spend time with the grandparents now. Do you see what I mean? So, although the words exchanged between H and my dad are not my problem, they become my problem. I will try to schedule next year's visit to my parents' house as a solo visit, but I'm sure you can guess how that will go. This is all such a new chapter, as my H and parents have always gotten along well. There is tension in the air now, even between my family and I. They cannot understand why I don't leave H. They think everything would be just fine if I left, all my problems would be solved. And when I counter that, they say, oh sure it will be hard for a while, but it will get better. Like they know.

[heatherg]

Did you feel like you were going to see this someone? Because my impression was more that you were going to see your brother's band and someone sought you out.

The latter is what happened. The former was a result. The five occassions were times I was with *him*, not watching the band. For instance, one night after watching the band play, he called me. I came home and went out again after H was in bed. One time I left work early to spend a couple hours with this guy. H knows all of this. So perhaps meaning even more than the kisses, the trust has definitely been twisted.

One of my biggest obstacles that has really been revealed these last couple days seems to be that I don't really treat H as someone I love and respect. Because most of the time I don't. H pointed out that I always think the worst of him, that I always take a negative stance about his intents. But if you ask me, his intents usually reveal themselves for what they are. Most of the time I am hateful when I think of him. I'd rather he was gone. But he isn't gone and I don't have the guts to make him gone. I'm trying to change this for the better on behalf of my kids, but it seems to require some faking it that as of yet, I've been completely unable to muster. Perhaps I should speak with Anna about faking it until I make it??!

Chuck had some things to say that I need to reflect on and think about when I get home and am back in my own surroundings. Forgiveness. Forgiving myself. Forgiving H. Laughter. Trying to bring some comic relief into each day. Laughter should be relatively straightforward. The forgiveness part, I will have some trouble with on both counts. I'll have to really contemplate forgiveness, I mean even as far as studying the exact definition. I am not religious so forgiveness has been a relatively scarce word in my life. There will be more to come on that topic, no doubt.