Still trying....

[dodgermf]

Today, nothing. Not even a little smile......and reading H's words would've had me in tears....but again, nothing.....(sigh)....Don't misunderstand me -- I really do appreciate them. That was very kind, thoughtful, and sweet of H to do.....but if there are certain feelings he's trying to recapture, they're just not there anymore. Not for me.

JV,

Welcome to DMF's world. Yeah, I remember when I could look at her and still get those thoughts of "someday-she'll-come-to-her-senses-and-we'll-be-back-together" roll through my dome. But as I have posted on my thread, when I see her, I don't have that stirring anymore. I see someone who I don't think may be happy in her situation. I don't think she may be happy with herself. I think she maybe doesn't know how to get out of it (she sure as hell knew how to get out of it last time )

It sounds like YOU ARE THERE. There's nothing wrong with that JV. It also doesn't mean that you are a cold hearted person. It means that you are showing signs of being a realist. I used to think to myself, "How many times is JV going to get hit on the forehead with a ball-peen hammer before she just says, 'Hey, no more of that!'". Well, I have my answer...

Good for you JV. Have fun in Tahoe. I guarantee it isn't 107 degrees there like it is down here in the I.E.

DMF

Oh yeah, try not to lose an a$$ load of money !!

[DonH]

I feel myself walking out on a limb here - but here I go anyway. I haven't went back to previous posts but I think I get the general concept of what has gone on. Then again, as I am very removed and looking from afar, it would appear to me that all of the DBing has paid off and the origional goal is being met - only now that is no longer the goal? Am I correct? Roles have been reversed. As soon as H pursues the DBer W changes her mind? That is really what it looks like. What happened to love being a choice and saving the M and on and on? Part of me is playing devil's advocate here but honestly help me to understand. Why after all of this time and all of this hard work would you have won only to give back the prize? And I can't at all help but wonder if H pulled back again if the momentum would not swing back the other way. This is extreemly interesting for me to see and to ponder. Does this happen often?

[dodgermf]

Why after all of this time and all of this hard work would you have won only to give back the prize?

Don,

First of all, DBing is about making changes in yourself to make YOU a better person. The idea I believe, and I can only speak for myself, is that by becoming a better person, (more confident etc., a 180 from the person that your spouse ran away from) you make yourself more attractive to that person. Thus they realize what they are missing and want to come back. In some cases, that does indeed happen.

However, in other cases, namely mine and now it looks like maybe in JV's (just my opinion JV, I would never profess to speak on your behalf) the spouse left behind has truly moved on. In my case, I think that my XW is now (after almost a year since starting the affair) second guessing herself. But I have COMPLETELY changed mentally, physically and emotionally, and I feel beter for it. When I see her, she's not the same woman who I fell in love with. It's not a matter of forgiving her or not, it's just that there is a feeling of "It's not worth it anymore...move on"

If you get a chance, please read JV's last few threads, it'll take you awhile!! ,(that's for you JV, and I hope you're OK with me gettin' all up in your business) and I think you'll understand why I'm not surprised that she is at this point in the process.

But Don, welcome aboard!! Do you have a thread established that all of the JV followers can check out?

DMF

[DonH]

Here is my thread (If I actually was able to paste it)web page

I don't want to hijack someone else's thread here and I have to say right off that usually I am very good a debating and expressing but since my own sitch I am way off my game. In any event, however, the purpose of the book and this web site in very clear words is to save your marriage. I mean it's in the name after all - DIVORCE BUSTING So that is the mission statement of sorts. It sounds like both of you have the ability to bust a divorce and meet the mission of the host of this board. I can respect and even probably understand how you have gotten to where you are but you are then no longer following the mission in favor of a different mission that of getting a life regardless of your M. Does that make sense? You are no longer divorce busting because if you were you'd bust the divorce. If you kept on working and went back to the book you'd find your compas to put back that loving feeling. I mean all of the things that Michelle writes and that we'd all love to tell our S now needs to be told to us. Don't give up. It can be fixed. You can find your way back. The in love feelings will return - on and on.

By the way if my link didn't work searching on "Classic WAW" might find it for you.

[ValerieA]

Hi, D!

So tell me......how many times did it take for me to finally get it?

Thanks for your continued support, understanding, and for letting me know that it's ok to feel this way. I really needed to hear that, and please feel free to voice your opinion anytime . I appreciate them all.

Tahoe was great ! Very beautiful weather. The guys went golfing yesterday while us ladies went window-shopping around town. Then we all got together for a magnificent dinner at Caesar's and did a little gambling and drinking afterwards. I won $40 -- Woo Hoo!! Hey, better than losing, right?

This morning we went to Heidi's for breakfast (yummy ), ran around town a little more, then I decided to head home. H wanted to go to Oregon to help out a former co-worker with some installs, so I told him I would be back for the kids by 3pm.

It was indeed a very enjoyable and relaxing weekend, and what made it even better was that upon my return, I didn't have to hear much complaining from H about the kids !!! Just a teeny bit though . Hopefully he's getting more comfortable having all three of them with him.

JV

PS -- DonH, I will respond to your post in a while. I have to get the boys to bed now.

"I can't change the direction of the wind, but I can adjust my sails to always reach my destinaition."

[ValerieA]

Hello, DonH, and thank you for taking the time to view my thread.

...it would appear to me that all of the DBing has paid off and the origional goal is being met - only now that is no longer the goal? Am I correct?

My original goal was to get H back and to salvage my M, but yes, it has changed. My goal now is to better MY life for myself and for my boys regardless of whether or not H decided to come back, and to be real honest here, I do not want him back anymore.

We've been S for almost 2 months now. The R has not been the easiest from the get-go, and over the last few years, it has just gotten worse. Nobody knows my sitch as well as I do, so let me try to explain what I see here.

As I've said before, H is a good guy. He is a great provider, and he is capable of being a loving gentleman when he wants to be......but......he can also be a very mean, nasty, selfish, hurtful, and emotionally/mentally abusive man. Unfortunately, this side of him shows itself the most in some way, and I have finally opened my eyes to it and said, "No more....NO MORE."

This is a man who has told me sooooooo many times in our 12 years together that if it weren't for the kids, he would have left me loooong ago because I'm a "stupid, f***ing b****" or I'm just a "f***ing idiot".

I've had 3 children. Therefore, my body isn't what it used to be, so I've been subjected to H's "playing around" where he will pinch and poke at my flabby stomach and make fun by mumbling things like, "Blub, blub, blub, blub..."....and he has also told me that he only has sex with me because he feels obligated to and he feels nothing more.

If something goes wrong (i.e. a form of his didn't get sent out, he misplaced an important document, etc.), then it's MY fault because I "wasn't looking out for him"....because I'm EXPECTED to do so. I'm EXPECTED to do everything for him since he brings in the money. If I don't (and it's never intentional), then it means I don't care and I don't love him, so in return, I get talked to and treated like s**t.

He has told me several times that he never wanted to marry me, have kids with me, and that I basically decided his life for him.....He has also apologized for saying such things and said he never meant any of it.....He got mad at me about 2 weeks or so ago (when discussing visitation) and said all of this again....the next day, he said sorry....again.

When I think about it, the only times H appears to be nice to me is when he needs me to do him a favor, when he needs reassurance (he's very insecure), or when he feels that I'm pulling away. H has told me that he doesn't want to be with me, but he also doesn't want to let me go because he can't bear the thought of me being with another man.

How does one get over such detrimental remarks? How could I ever feel that it would be "right" again when it never was to begin with?

As soon as H pursues the DBer W changes her mind?

I didn't suddenly change my mind. I've been DBing since February -- I know, not as long as others, but everyone is different. Everyone has their limit, and I have reached way past mine.

H was pursuing almost immediately when I began DBing, and I thought it was great. It was. I wanted him back...but why?

I was blind. I was afraid. Afraid of being alone, D'ed, and of being a single mother of 3 boys. I did not want any of that. Nobody does. But I HAVE been alone and almost living like a single mother for the past couple of years. There came a point when I asked myself, "Why do I still want this man? This is who he is...always has been...and he will never change. Never. But I can, I must, and I will."

With H out of the house and much less contact over the phone or whatever, I am so much more at peace. The house is somewhat serene (remember, I have 3 young boys ) and there is far less tension in the air. This IS the happiest I've been in a loooooong time, and I deserve it.

I hope this is making sense because I've had a few interruptions . I'm not trying to sound like a victim at all. I'm a big girl, and I accept the blame for what I did to damage the R. I should've made H feel like his opinion mattered in certain decisions, and I guess I shouldn't have turned him away when he needed my emotional support the most....but it just wore me down....day after day for nearly 3 years....and I couldn't take it anymore. To carry someone else emotionally is a LOT to ask for.

You are no longer divorce busting because if you were you'd bust the divorce.

I'm not DBing anymore???

Hmmm.....I thought DBing was about taking a good look at yourself and finding the ways and means of improving your life FIRST....changing yourself for the better....changing it for YOU -- NOT for your spouse....then HOPEFULLY a healthier and more loving M would follow. If that didn't happen, then at least you knew you tried what you could.

I have tried, and I have tried with all my strength....now I'm sorry to say that it's just too late. It may seem like it's not because H is showing signs of pursuing, but let me tell you why I believe I got the flowers on Friday.

Other than my family, MIL was the only other person I talked to about my education plans. No one else knew -- not even H.

H called me while I was driving to Tahoe on Friday. I thanked him for the flowers, we chatted a little, then out of the blue, he said, "So....is there anything you'd like to do?....Like....have you thought about going back to school?....I mean, would you want to take some kind of online courses to learn something different?"

This is NOT something normal for H to talk about, so I made the ASSumption that MIL had mentioned it to him. I asked, and he said yes she did. That's fine and all, but when talking to H about it,....I don't know. Something just didn't seem right. He said he was happy for me, and when I talked about how much $$$$$ it would cost for me to go to grad school, H said, "So what?! That's fine. Whatever it takes, we'll do it. Whatever. You'll be able to make good money when you're through.".......(Sigh).......H with his expectations there.

What happens if I don't meet his expectations again? Nothing is certain. It's great to want to follow your dream, but you have to also understand that it might not happen -- H doesn't.

Ok, I have to get to bed now. Thanks for listening.

JV

"I can't change the direction of the wind, but I can adjust my sails to always reach my destination."

[dodgermf]

Hmmm.....I thought DBing was about taking a good look at yourself and finding the ways and means of improving your life FIRST....changing yourself for the better....changing it for YOU -- NOT for your spouse

Ding, Ding, Ding!!!!

JV wins the prize!! You hit the nail on the head!! I have nothing more to say...

DMF

[DonH]

Hmmm.....I thought DBing was about taking a good look at yourself and finding the ways and means of improving your life FIRST....changing yourself for the better....changing it for YOU -- NOT for your spouse

Ding, Ding, Ding!!!!

JV wins the prize!! You hit the nail on the head!! I have nothing more to say...

DMF

---

That is all well and good but why did Michelle write the book? What is the reason for DB and DR? Why does the book exist? Is it a self help make yourself better book and if oh by the way you save your marriage too - well good for you or is the goal to save your marriage and the way to do that is by DBing. I really have to say that it would seem that the origional goal has been exchanged here. The goal is to save your marriage. Changing and saving you is a step in the overall goal - not the goal itself. Again, if the methods work for you to change yourself and you want to stop there it is no different than using the methods to improve work relationships or relationships with your family or friends. If you use the book for these things as well - all the more power to you. Let's just not forget what the author's goal is and that is to bust a divorce. After you change yourself and employ the LRT there are many more steps that you then have to follow. You start with a beginners mind, you ask for what you want, you monitor the results, etc. For good or bad, it is clear that the LRT has worked but for whatever reason some people then chose not to follow the rest of the steps to go onto actuallty DB. Let me be clear again that I can't say these people are wrong, but let's at least be honest with ourselves here. If we were truly DBing in the actual sense of that term we'd now be on to the rest of the steps.

[Scottisheart]

JV I'm really starting to believe that we live in a parallel universe!

I haven't made it quite as far as you but I DO understand how you're feeling. I'm pretty sure I'm going to "go back" to school - Web Design I think - and I'm getting excited about the future for the first time in a long time. As for my M....well I really have no idea. I do know that I'm ready to take the world on as a single parent if I have to.

I really appreciated the way you explained your sitch and your feelings. I wish I could be so articulate about my sitch.....maybe I'll just do some cut and pasting from your thread.

No matter how your sitch turns out please continue to post. I find you to be a HUGE inspiration! There aren't too many others out there with such similar situations to my own!!!

YOU ARE FAB-U-LOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cheers, Scottisheart

[ValerieA]

Hello again.

Ok...maybe I'm way off-base here, but I feel like you're telling me in a nice way that I'm not a "true DBer"...maybe even a quitter.

I know what Michelle's goal is...what her purpose is for having written her books...but in MY case, I have realized that no matter how hard I try and no matter how much I have changed for the better, it's not going to change anything with H. IT'S NOT. He will always be who he is, and I will not put myself in that dysfunctional R ever again.

If he chose to come back home, everything would be fine for awhile....but then something WILL happen to rub him the wrong way again....and I will be back in the same old stinking rut.

If a woman was being physically abused by her H, you wouldn't tell her to "keep on working, read the book, and find your compass again to put back that loving feeling," would you? He** no, you wouldn't!

I have been made to feel like everything that has gone wrong is ALL my fault -- not his. I have been beaten over and over and over again both mentally and emotionally by this man, and I HAVE HAD ENOUGH.

I came here in the hopes of saving my M, and that is what I set out to do, and in the process, it has made me stronger, and it has waken me up. DBing has made me realize just how BAD, just how AWFUL, this R really is.....something I don't think you know about my sitch, DonH, is that my H has a horrible temper and no self-control. He has busted down a bedroom door to get to me when all I needed was some cooling down time to myself. He has punched holes in walls, and I have a really nice fist impression on the side of my new 9-month-old refridgerater. I can't tell you how many phones, vacuum cleaners, and picture frames I've had to replace in the last 5 years.

All it takes is one misstep. Just one to set him off.

H has never laid a hand on me. He has never physically hurt me, but knowing how he's treated me emotionally/mentally, should I still give him another chance?

No. I think H was very lucky to have me even come here and be willing to try.

This is the most personal info I have ever given about my sitch. I guess I've just been quiet and ashamed to really talk about the truth....I suppose this is how a physically-battered W might feel until she regains her own identity and strength to finally be able to move on....and this is what I'm doing now.

I am all for the saving of Ms. I really am....but this one is not right, and I truly believe in my heart and in my mind that it won't ever be right. If H were willing to get some SERIOUS professional help, then ok. Maybe....but he WILL NOT go. He ABSOLUTELY refuses.

And I am being honest with myself. VERY HONEST. You don't have to agree with the way I'm going about my life or my DBing ways. It's ok, you don't. But this is what I'm doing.....because H isn't going to make the necessary changes he needs to for himself or for the R.....and because this is right for ME.

JV

"I can't change the direction of the wind, but I can adjust my sails to always reach my destination."