Moving from newcomers

[SP1]

Hi Sikan - Just popping in to say hello and marvel at the attitude you are displaying re: ow

Could I please borrow some of it?

"People like OW see H as (she has described him more than once) the amazing one or a real man. To someone like OW, who obviously isn't particularly evolved, I see how that could be the case." This statement totally rang a bell with me re: H's annoying FF. I just posted that she is now planning to go to the same event out of town H & I had planned to go to.

I definitely need to develop the attitude you have for the ow in your sitch! I continue to read your thread and follow your progress with your H. My work is insane this time of year so I'm not posting much but am reading along.

Take Care,
SP

PS - Sage (moderator) had lowered the importance of the OW in her previous sitch by listing her as ow in lower case. Guess, I need to do the same with FF = ff!

[sikan]

Hi Piglet,

I just finished posting on your thread. I was thinking about your reply all day at work yesterday. I must have been in a very bad spot because all I did was fantasize about finding another person to be with. Total escape fantasies. Then I became ridiculously insecure about OW, so much so that I acted like a complete weirdo for a portion of the night while hanging out with H. I was very vague and talked about random subjects. At one point, I was basically making obvious threats to OW, without directly talking about her. This only sets me back because it makes me look like I'm still not moving forward or that my progress is very inconsistent. Which it is, but for the purposes of letting go I need to act as if.

My DB coach has suggested several times that when I feel this coming on, and to begin by recognizing my warning signs, that I need to do something different or if worse comes to worse not be around H until it passes.

This is my next task. I'm still plugging away at eliminating obsessive thoughts but I need to be more consistent. I'm still not sure what triggered my backslide. I know that seeing the postcards was very painful for me but I feel like it tapped into something greater and I don't know what that is.

Anyway, Mondays and Tuesdays are my H's busiest days at work. I'm backing off from him to give him the space he constantly asks for on those days. He definitely wants to be around me after work but he keeps a low profile during work hours. I've been trying to accomodate him more.

Piglet- We need to explore what it means when our H's say that we are the ones the want to spend the rest of their lives with. It has to count for something, doesn't it? My H describes me as his ideal. Why don't I believe him when he says that? Because of his friendship with OW? or is it that plus my own raging insecurities?

SP1- Thank you for dropping by! I would be upfront with your GMF and tell him that this trip is for you and H. Ask him if he would like to plan another trip with the two of you or a group. Also, do NOT let annoying FF get in the way at all! Know that you will have an amazing time and even during the times when you do not, don't let it be know unless you absolutely need to! I have to attend a wedding next week and I'm very certain H's OW will be there. I'm thankfully going to be at a zen retreat for most of the morning but I plan on having a quiet and good time at wedding. Hopefully, I won't have to sit next to her or across from her. I'm planning on just being myself, no more no less.

[sikan]

Journaling-
I'm tired at times of being around someone who just complains but doesn't do much to change it and looks to others to provide his happiness. There, I said it! My H really annoys me when he is like that I really don't like him when he acts that way. I'm done with feeling guilty or trying to do a song and dance to get him to feel better.

I feel like crap and I am doing something to change and a lot of times, I still feel like crap! But I am doing something about it! God, I feel like so much of this can be avoided if I just stick to minding my own business most times.

So much of this stems, I think, from trying to do it all myself. I really need to drop the rope and make a list of personal goals that I would like to achieve.

Here are a few:
1. Get back into shape, return to running
2. Reclaim my former sense of style (or at least one that is fitting for an almost mid-30s)
3. Find a new job
4. Work on personal debt and begin to build savings
5. Take classes to improve job skills, maybe treat myself to a non-job related class

I've been playing around with a couple of these goals. For me the key is to have some that are flexible and some that are not. The non-flexible are the ones that keep me in line and the flexible ones function either as rewards or ways to be less stringent with myself. I work in extremes and am known for doing to much and then hating myself when I don't or can't accomplish my goals.

Maybe I should set up goals for each week until I start to make serious progress. I would love suggestions from other dbers as to what their goals are and how they manage them.

[sikan]

More and more am I coming to understand that issues like soley with H and not with things like OW. OW is a variable and when you look at the facts a pretty big loser for involving herself with a married man.

I need to adress the secrecy issues in my R. Can I say how much I HATE that this is even in my life?! That I am still in this whole mess!? I know that it won't change until I make it happen but I HATE being the one who has to bring this up.

Two issues that I need resolved before I live with H again are his secrecy issues and finances. Both stem from his control issues. It was a nightmare to get H to combine finances with me when we were first married. We worked with a finacial counselor, which was the best thing we could ahve ever done but H and I both love to spend. Especially if we are feeling bad or down but we also love really expensive things too.

H and I owed alot of taxes this year because we don't own any property or have kids. I have paid off most of my half of the taxes but I have absolutely no idea how much H still owes. We are on a payment plan with IRS. I don't know where H's $$ goes to because we have separate accounts again after the separation.

I need to find ways of addressing these two major issues in my R. I won't go back to living with H until they are addressed in a way where I am not only in the know but am also comfortable with it.

I have a session with my DB coach. I'm going to get some advice from her but this is my next step. I have no idea how long it will take but I am being honest with myself about my needs. I need an honest and open R. Secrecy does not work for me at all and I won't be in an R where that is the case and I act "as if" for the rest of my life. That's what destroyed so many women I have known, including my mother, H's mother, and both of our paternal grandmothers.

Sorry to be crass but F**K that! I won't live that way. I can already see its effect on my health.

Don't get me wrong. I'm very happy with the changes in my sitch. I'm so happy to see that I am growing but I also see that there are some fundamentals that need to be in place.

Unfortunately, I have to work on freelance jobs this weekend. I'm going to relax some on Sunday and run (if it's not too hot) on Saturday. I think that my mantra while running and meditating will be Baby Steps, Baby Steps, Baby Steps...

Hope everyone has a good weekend!

Sikan

[SweetRedd]

Sikan,

Hey Have been catching up on your posts from the last couple of days. You are focusing on the secrecy, and OW, finances. Almost exactly what keeps me wrapped up. Taxes.. whooooah. Do you know that H hasn't paid his taxes from last year? We're not married, so we file separately. BIG, HUGE issue with me. In fact, it's one of the reasons I refuse to re-marry him. I've been reading the articles that I linked to on my thread. Through that, and lots of thought, I've come to realize how I'm letting H's tax situation relieve me of the responsibility for the fact that I'm not ready to make a forever commitment to this R. I'm justifying my fear and indecision by making a list of reason that I won't marry him that are his fault. Then I don't have to confront the fact that I'm terrified that I'm going to marry him and be hurt, rejected and trapped. Now that I know I'm making the list to relieve myself of that burden, I'm free to let my anger at him go and deal with MY issues. It's the same thing with the finances. I'm pretty responsible financially, but have a hard time saving for a rainy day. I'm wishy washy and give in and buy stuff spur of the moment without considering my long term financial goals. I've never admitted that before. Because H has been so out of control, I blame the sitch on him. In reality, he's not that big of spender.. he's just made some costly mistakes. It effects us, but the long term problem is that we aren't setting financial goals together and curbing our daily spending. See how I blame that on the fact that he's blown it in a big way a few times? If I would quit holding that against him and blaming the finances on him, I can get myself in control on a daily basis and make our financial sitch more positive myself. I've blinded myself to the fact that he's helping balance the checkbook and that he's not spending wildly anymore because I want to deny that I also need to change my habits. OW.. I know she isnt important to him and that I am. He shows me that every day, but instead of counting those moments, my mind keeps a list of ways he's hurt my feelings, times he called her, the one night stand (instead of admitting how great our ML is). With these thoughts I can relieve myself of responsibility for me feeling unlovable, and the fact that I sometimes clam up during ML and don't relax enough to enjoy it. I need to focus on my self esteem and loving myself.. I need to focus on relaxing during ML. It's scary to admit that I'm needy and insecure sometimes. Instead of reaching out to H and asking him to comfort me (and he would!), I just dwell in this place too proud and afraid he won't reassure me. Instead of learning to be intimate and carefree during ML, I focus on what he did with OW and blame my inhibitions on the fact that he was unfaithful. Granted, he did some bad stuff and some of the things I feel are affected by that. That he slept with a younger woman fed my insecurities, and inhibitions, but it didn't CAUSE them. They were there to deal with already.. they were just manageable to an extent that I could ignore them. Now that I know what I'm dealing with personally, I can work on that in myself and stop using his actions to justify how I feel.
I know this is long and rambling.. I hope it makes a little sense..lol.

Terry Warner said two other things that struck home. One was about how we see people. It's hard to say it in short version, but he basically says we see people in an I-It relationship, or an I-you relationship. If we view people according to OUR needs, then they become objects to us (we treat them bad according to what they aren't giving us, or good according to what they are or can feed our egos with) and we dont consider their feelings.. their humanity. Our actions become different once we look at them in an I-You way and focus on what they need from us. It's complicated, and I'm not saying it as well as he does!

He also makes a connection.. how we treat and respond to others becomes who we are. If we allow someone to irritate us, we are an irritable person. If we allow them to anger us, we become an angry person. And dangit! I might be angry for a reason I think is justifiable, but do I really want someone else to turn me into an angry person? I'd rather be kind, gracious, loving, patient, and forgiving! How I respond to H's actions defines who I am as a person. If he becomes unbearable, I can let him go, but to let him change who I am is betraying myself. I refuse to betray who I am in response to who he is. If he wants to be depressed, irresponsible, dishonest, then fine, but I'm still happy, responsible, and honest. I'm also not angry, petty, unforgiving and unloveable, no matter how HE acts!! I only become those things when I choose to act.. I can choose to act positive and preserve who I am.

Now I'm hi-jacking.... enjoy your weekend Sikan!!

[Buddha]

Piglet,

Your quotes from Terry Warner sounded interesting. Would you please explain who Terry Warner is? Is he an author and if so, what has he written?

Thanks.

Buddha

[SweetRedd]

Buddha,

Terry Warner is the author of "The Bonds that Make Us Free". It's a book that Burgbud on the infidelity forum has read and suggested. I've only read the serialization of the book:

http://www.meridianmagazine.com/books/011005bonds.html

Just that little bit is enough to keep me busy for awhile while I wait on a copy of the book. I was paraphrasing and there is much much more that goes with the little I posted. It took me awhile to catch on to his thinking, but once I started to put it together, the truths he presents are mindblowing for me. Freedom (on a stick!). If you're interested in reading, Burgbud also had a few more book suggestions on his thread.

[sikan]

Hi Piglet,

I have a few moments to post today. Really, in some ways I think you and I are the same people. I'm also bad about saving for a rainy day. Finances are an issue that I am taking into consideration before returning to live with H. I had a very brief convo with my H this weekend about how I need to be able to share that info with him and he do likewise. We have an excellent financial conselor and I fully plan on using her expertise. But right now, finances are not my main issue.

Had a good session with my DB coach last night. This coming off a very relaxed and loving weekend with my H. H says to me that he is very, very happy with where we are in our R. I'm very glad to hear that and in spite of my multiple freakouts last week am using his words to fuel me to work towards the bigger issues.

This week is crazy. I'm feeling it already but I am trying not to let it take over. I am also not trying to think about this wedding that is coming up this weekend where I'm pretty sure OW will be.

I'm realizing so much about myself during all of this! Some of it much harder to face than others. Piglet, I know you can relate but I am beginning to really look behind a lot of my actions and seeing how I have created my life including those that I ahve invited into it!

Something that came up in my session last night was that my coach made the suggestion that if I maintain the attachment of anger to OW, she will be in my life until I let that go. It's not that I have to be friends with her but to accept that she is in my life and at the very least, make peace with that. Actually, I have always realized that a lot of my anger has to do with shame and anger that I feel towards myself. I have acted as OW has in the past and have hurt a couple of people very deeply as a result of my actions. So Karma or you reap what you sow, however you want to look at it is palying a part in all of this and on a good day, I see this as the way that my life has decided to make peace with itself.

[sikan]

Personal and R updates-

Both H and I have had a horrible week at our jobs. I can't deny the fact that I need to leave mine. I've been holding off because I was (and don't laugh at this) afraid that I wouldn't ahve the opportunity to either monitor my H or talk to him or email him repeatedly throughout the day. Co-dependent?! Anyway, it doesn't matter now. I have to go. It is way too much strain on me mentally and at times physically. Also, I'm getting to a point where the co-dependency isn't even necessary for me anymore. If H needs to leave, then leave he must. I'm not afraid of losing him anymore.

I realized that my tolerance for bad behavior from others has me in a job where my supervisor (a weak man) is not even civil to me and sometimes is even abusive. It's time that I stand up for myself and this is a big step forward. Screw, staying here so that I can talk to H or run my side business or spend inordinate amounts of time online (this BB being the exception, of course!). I'm starting to see a bit more clearly these days and what I thought was a perfectly fine approach to life isn't working for me anymore.

That scares me with some things, my R. I'm working to a point where I can address the important issues in my R with my H. Honesty, compassion, future growth, etc...

These little bonuses seem less and less so the further I go with all of this. In the same vein, so do these little battles.

Saw OW on the street yesterday. Thankfully, she didn't see me. She looked like a goth hooker. Giant black frankenboot platform shoes, black mini skirt and halter top. It was in some ways helpful for me to lay eyes on her. I'm probably seeing her this weekend at a wedding and it will require all of my strength to make eye contact with her and not spit in her face. I need to keep reminding myself that any reaction I would have of that kind would be just for my own instant gratification. I must remind myself that I am working towards greater goals.

Hopefully my H won't be an a** about it, if I do appear upset. I'm tired and done with keeping his feelings from being hurt.

He called this afternoon asking me when my retreat was this weekend. I automatically assumed it was because he is making plans with her. Who knows? Who cares? I'm not letting it interrupt my retreat this weekend.

Sent out my resume yesterday and finished and was paid for a client job. It's good to move forward and be complimented for your work. It definitely feels good to be appreciated.

[SweetRedd]

Hi Sikan! Thanks for visiting my thread and writing. I always look forward to hearing from you. We seem to be on a similar timeline in our Rs. I'm gonna say DITTO! up front to so much of your post.

I'm starting to see a bit more clearly these days and what I thought was a perfectly fine approach to life isn't working for me anymore.
An opportunity to work on you.. great focus! I love it.. screw H and staying here..LOL. Sounds like you've got a case of the kiss my a*s that's catching on the BB. Isn't it liberating?! I love that about detaching. That ability to look at our life and set some boundaries that will work. Just the change of focus from OUR life to MY life is doing wonders. So that it's moving towards H's life, MY life, and OUR life. Trying to let him live his life the way he wants, starting to focus on my life and hopefully blend the changes into a R that works much better in the future.

That scares me with some things, my R. I'm working to a point where I can address the important issues in my R with my H. Honesty, compassion, future growth, etc...

These little bonuses seem less and less so the further I go with all of this. In the same vein, so do these little battles.
Scares you how? Realizing that the approach isn't working might mean you realizing that your R isnt going to work? Or just scares you that you think the approach to your R in particular hasnt worked and now you have to learn some new skills? Not sure exactly what you mean by the second paragraph. You're not getting as much positive progress from the approach you've been taking?... but detaching and working on yourself is decreasing the battles you're having? You've slowed down on progress, but also slowed down on the problems? hmmm.. Im finding that H's pace of life is much slower than mine. The more I slow down (especially my thoughts and expectations), the more relaxed our life is. If I move at his pace, we don't make progress as fast as I want it, but then, mentally slowing down allows me to evaluate the problems so that they aren't a matter of life and death today.. I dont overreact as much and want it to be better RIGHT NOW. Gives me some time to work on my life!

She looked like a goth hooker. Giant black frankenboot platform shoes, black mini skirt and halter top. It was in some ways helpful for me to lay eyes on her. ROFL! Goth hooker.. thats a mental image!

It was in some ways helpful for me to lay eyes on her. I'm probably seeing her this weekend at a wedding and it will require all of my strength to make eye contact with her and not spit in her face. I need to keep reminding myself that any reaction I would have of that kind would be just for my own instant gratification. I must remind myself that I am working towards greater goals.
OK, this is out there, but do you have a close friend that would help you rehearse how you're going to react/address OW? When I first saw OW, I was shocked at what she wasn't and insulted that she was so boyish looking.. not striking at all. The second time I saw her, my reaction was overwhelming because she turned and looked to see who my H was with.. p*ssed me off that she was that bold. We were going to a BBQ that she was attending and it was cancelled due to rain. Thank goodness. I WANTED her to have to look me in the eye knowing what she did. Wrong motivation.. woulda turned out horrible. Anyway, I've since re-thought that and have actually practiced how I'd act if I see her face to face. I want to come off as warm and gracious, but not phony. Then on my Mom's advice, I'd act like she didn't exist..lol. Will you know other people.. do you know the setting and how you might come into contact with her? If I see OW, others will be around and my plan is to say hello, offer my hand if appropriate, and then wait for her response (gonna count to 5 with a smile on my face), and as soon as the interaction is over, very slowly head towards safety with my head held high. Taking H's arm and drawing him towards another person, with a "Hey, there's Danny!" or something light. Why prepare? Because as you said, we're working towards greater goals, and OW does not fit into that life, even to fret on her presence at a gathering. I'll be thinking of you and hoping that you don't have to deal with a lot of emotion when you see her and that your H will behave perfectly! Are you prepared to not have any expectations of how he'll act so that you won't be disappointed? Gawd.. I'm glad youre going to a zen retreat! You should be in a good place after that

He called this afternoon asking me when my retreat was this weekend. I automatically assumed it was because he is making plans with her. Who knows? Who cares? I'm not letting it interrupt my retreat this weekend.
Yay Sikan! You go girl! I said almost exactly the same thing yesterday. H called to let me know that he was working nearby with OW yesterday, but had requested to not work side-by-side with her. I told a friend "who cares? He can KMA! She can KMA! I don't really care if they are holding hands and singing show tunes.. that's their problem!"

Sent out my resume yesterday and finished and was paid for a client job. It's good to move forward and be complimented for your work. It definitely feels good to be appreciated. Yup, and you should be! Good that you are looking within yourself and your accomplishments for happiness. We're gonna be OK GF!

No big plans for the weekend here. Going to keep my sitter's girls Fri and Sat, so it'll be all about the kids this weekend. Might have to go into work Sunday. That's OK though.. I'm in a lazy mood. A rare thing for me. I'm usually go go go all the time. Today I had the day off with H again. Met a GF for bfast and then came home to do some cleaning. H had flowers waiting when I got home.. was sweet. Didnt do much cleaning.. ended up spending the afternoon in bed with H . Took a two hour nap with him too.. wow.. that was nice. We usually spend our days together going 90 miles a minute. So, I'm lazy this afternoon.. a SLUG! He went to pick up S2 and dinner and told me to RELAX

Have a great time at the retreat and let me know how things went!