Sorry to have caused so much angst over the weekend. Hey, SOMEBODY's gotta get some action on our usually-dead Sat/Sun time period!
I can only speak for myself, and shouldn't have professed to speak for other HDs. But my original two points -- and I still stand by them -- are:
1) Whether intentional or not (and I do think that it's not always intentional), "bait and switch" is a real source of resentment and hurt for me. Many, many relationships seem to be HD/HD (or at least compatible sex drives) in the beginning of the marriage, and then become a "clashing libidos" later on. I think most of us could have lived with this situation IF IT HADN'T BEEN FAR, FAR BETTER AT ONE POINT.
2) The loooooong list of "to-do's" make me feel like I am last on my wife's priority list. This has caused serious damage -- perhaps even irreparable -- to our marriage. My wife can legitiately point to any one, or even several, of the items on her "list," and can logically justify why that took priority at the time. But again, OVER TIME, to have SO many things that take a front seat to making love -- despite knowing how important it is to me -- only makes what ought to be the #1 relationship in the household (Husband-Wife) a distant #3, or worse (remember, many of us have said in our HHs that the PETS receive greater affection and attention than we do; certainly the CHILDREN in the contemporary American household have become the #1 focus).
I never claimed there was any ill intent here; just hurt and damage , over time.
Quote: I never claimed there was any ill intent here; just hurt and damage , over time
I hear that. And also the lack of admission on the other person's part that there could have been hurt or damage if it was not intended, kwim? Sometimes people feel that if they didn't INTEND hurt, there could be no hurt. But I might accidentally drop a brick on your foot and not intend hurt, but your foot could be broken all the same. An apology is in order from ME over your hurt foot, AND a promise from me that I will be more careful with bricks in the future.
Having the stomach flu and the physical symptoms it entails or attending to those who have it would avert all but the very most HD's attention from sex. Once it has passed, however, the relief at feeling healthy again and having a normality restored at home would result in some sort of celebration. For HD's that means sex, for LD's that means maybe a quiet ride alone. I am using stomach flu to epitomize all sorts of major and minor crisises that pop up in everyone's lives from time to time. This explains people who have sex at or just after funerals. To LDs such a thing is disrespectful maybe even morally wrong. To HDs it is affirming that they are still alive and willing to celebrate it in the best manner they know how.
I'm afraid that CeMar would not know what to do with an insatiable woman.
I don't mind the sun sometime
The images it shows
I can taste you on my lips
And smell you in my clothes
Cinnamon and Sugar
And softly spoken lies
You never know just how you look
Through someone elses eyes
BHS-"Pepper"
Sorta funny about how much commotion a conversation of what a LD person thinks about instead of sex can create. And how it can be twisted into instead of it just being that. That it means as LDs we are not trying to fufill our spouse or we ignore our spouse. When really all we are saying is in the course of the day we are thinking about all these other thoughts instead of about sex. And that all this mumble of responsibilitys in our head and life put a damper on our sex drive. Not saying we are not spending time with our mates just not thinking of sex. And not looking for excuses just not thinking about sex. Not saying we wont have sex. But at 10;00 AM and the spouse is at work we are not thinking about sex.
Re: jenoftheislandThe biggest problem I see is the fact that it isn't changing on the inside. Inside, I'm still LD, dispite all the hard work I've done. I'm trying to think sexy, read sexy novels, I am happy to see you are trying. I did not read what you were doing IRL. I do feel the frustrations of LD and HD men and women on this forum. Simce I am not LD I don't know how to help LD women or men with personal experiences. The closest I came to being LD physically but never mentally, was/is when I have back troubles. It last for a few days to a few months.
I wish I had answers for you but can try to help you see how it feels from the higher drive persons perspective so it does not lead to total dissconnecting from your spouse. I empathise with you and maybe should comment more towards the line of imagining how that feels if I were in your shoes. Lil does a much better job in this area.
Believe me when I say I never thought you did a bait and switch job.
I appreciate the fact that no matter how I look (after 4 babies)....he still wants me that way I feel this way too and many guys feel this way. Tough to get this point through to the LD person. I have heard "If I had better looking___________ you would love me more." basically a no win situation similar to "do I look fat in this size 14 outfit"
or whether I'm even clean,.... he still wants me that way Clean is always better and it does not take much time to use a little soap and rinse off. One less thing to feel uncomfortable about. IYKWIM, smelling good makes it so much more enjoyable for both parties.
Dh doesn't even initiate as much anymore... that's got to be a bad sign.....Guess it's a case of too little too late in my case. Yes it is a troubling sign. I hope it is not too late for your M.
You don't realise how much influence you still might have. Getting turned down most of the time even if the final answer is yes to sex really hurts for me. I suppose I am not to different form other guys and women. The too little too late comes to mind but I think with the right words and environment your H might be receptive to you taking a more active roll in initating. I think baby steps are called for here. Improvements are better than worrying about what might not work.
Getting turned down most of the time becomes like feeding a dog that bites you and grows at you most of the time. You become adverse to the negative interactions. You know the dog needs to survive so you do what you can and wonder if what you are about to do will hurt you. You know you also don't want to whip the dog into submission. What to do? Do you know of a way to feed the dog between the fence wires so to speak?
There is a term that is close to bait and switch in advertising. It is called "nailed to the floor" it means if a customer works really hard to buy something, sell it to him but there will be hidden undesireable consequences, either to the sales person or the customer.
I think this "nailed to the floor," IE passive agressive, is more common than "bait and switch". How often I wish we could get away from this.
Back to work and I do wish you the best. I know it is tough to be LD or HD and it is something that is difficult for you. Maybe that is why it is difficult for me to work with BB. Maybe I feel her frustrations too much along with mine. It is difficult being the relationship promoter, enforcer, and moderator.
I just wanted to thank you for starting this thread - I know that LD folks are the minority here, and are sometimes the receipients of the anger and frustration of us HD'ers, so I know that it takes courage to stand up and express the thoughts/feelings of the LD person. Those of us that are HD are truly puzzled by the behavior & attitude of LD spouses, and struggle with the feelings of sadness, loneliness, anger and self-doubt that arise from being in a R with mismatched sexual desire. Knowing "the other side of the story" is helpful. My W is in the same situation as you - had desire, lost it, doesn't know why. I'm glad to see you recognize the impact that it has on your R - my W either doesn't, or is choosing to ignore it. So your willingness to share your thoughts is really helpful (and valuable) for me.
I just wanted to thank you for starting this thread - I know that LD folks are the minority here, and are sometimes the receipients of the anger and frustration of us HD'ers, so I know that it takes courage to stand up and express the thoughts/feelings of the LD person. Those of us that are HD are truly puzzled by the behavior & attitude of LD spouses, and struggle with the feelings of sadness, loneliness, anger and self-doubt that arise from being in a R with mismatched sexual desire. Knowing "the other side of the story" is helpful. My W is in the same situation as you - had desire, lost it, doesn't know why. I'm glad to see you recognize the impact that it has on your R - my W either doesn't, or is choosing to ignore it. So your willingness to share your thoughts is really helpful (and valuable) for me.
Sorta funny about how much commotion a conversation of what a LD person thinks about instead of sex can create. And how it can be twisted into instead of it just being that. That it means as LDs we are not trying to fufill our spouse or we ignore our spouse. When really all we are saying is in the course of the day we are thinking about all these other thoughts instead of about sex. And that all this mumble of responsibilitys in our head and life put a damper on our sex drive. Not saying we are not spending time with our mates just not thinking of sex. And not looking for excuses just not thinking about sex. Not saying we wont have sex. But at 10;00 AM and the spouse is at work we are not thinking about sex.
I am probably over-personalizing it. But in the case of my wife, we're NOT having sex, and we're not having sex because she has no desire to, and she has no desire to because she feels like "it's just one more 'chore' I have to do ... you're just one more person in this family who's 'at' me." (This, word-for-word, she has told me several times).
I'm sorry if I projected my anger and frustration toward you and Jen; I do understand your larger point.
Quote: I'm sorry if I projected my anger and frustration toward you and Jen; I do understand your larger point.
Gosh, I think I feel a group hug developing here!
Thanks Choc! I'm sure it gets a bit difficult to not personalize it when I'm telling you something that doesn't solve your problems then asking you to buy it and apply it to your W. Sucks! Wish there was an answer somewhere here for all of us..............
Lou, I think you are a gentleman and a good man. I'm sorry your W didn't find this board the same way I did, searching for help for a M that was feeling a bit lonely. I totally respect all you've gone through and the character you display here on the board. Hang in there because I believe help comes in ways we don't expect. It was quite an accident I found this board in the first place!
Gremlin, here's hoping she can find her way back... I'm pullin' for her, and me!
I actually talked to my H today about our situation while we were driving (have some great conversations that way, no pressure, no way to get out of the car...). I asked him flat out if he was happy with our Sl. Of course the reality hurts, but he did say that overall he was much happier now than he was this time last year! We didn't even ML on our anniversary.
This year, I gave him tickets for the two of us to go to a Rolling Stones concert, as well as spend two nights away without the kid! That hasn't happened in a long time. My mom is taking them. Well, he couldn't have been more happy, but it's the cottage we rented that is exciting him the most! I've already made some plans, and he is going to remember this one!
What he did bring up was the fact that I still control our SL and that it is still not as 'robust' as he would like it. Ouch! I got a bit defensive at first (Hi, I'm Jen and I'm defensive...) but then I opened up and just listened. He isn't angry, just sad and frustrated at times. I didn't bring up any excuses, just listened and made sure he knew I heard him.
He did say that he felt that I have been trying really hard lately, and he appreciated it. It doesn't quite add up to perfect, but he is happier and does find I'm willing almost everytime he asks. I mentioned that I noticed a drop in how frequently that was happening, and he said that he was trying to not 'bug' me. Thought I'd agree more often if he asked less often. He doesn't like to ask because it makes him nervous and tense, in case I turn him down.
One of the things that I suggested was that instead of verbally saying "Is tonight a good night?", he could 'banish me' to the tub in the evening while he finished with the kids as a way of asking without asking. That way I was clean, relaxed and child-free for a bit and could get in the mood. He agreed to give it a try! I also suggested a back rub in bed after my shower (do that almost every night before I go to sleep) and let it get a bit racy to 'ask'. I mention these things specifically in case they might help someone with ideas about how to 'ask' without having to come out and ask. I often find the verbal request a bit abrupt if I haven't been thinking along those lines up to that point.
Oh, but don't over do it though, or we'll start skipping our showers and having a tub when we know you won't find out!!!
To everyone else who added their words of support or advice, thank you! I take something from each one. Thanks for such a great response to my thread!
One less thing to feel uncomfortable about. 
