UD, as someone who has been through every avenue in the legal system, I can say I disagree with you.
If he sends her an email, he is not only pursuing, he is violating the RO which could land him back in court, affect his visitation with S5 and possibly lead to a penal sentance.
I know because my X broke my court orders continually for 2 years and the judge said if he didn't adhere to the order he would sentance him to prison.
He also threatened us with a section 37 care order on our children. An RO is a COURT ORDER stating that he should not be in contact with XW apart from to do with S5. If he breaks that via email, he is breaking the law.
It would back up what she has said to the court about him being controlling, and if he's asking for forgiveness, it sends out the wrong message of 'it's fine for you to take me to court' - IT ISN'T.
If this was plain DB'ing, I might agree with you, but he cannot approach when there is an RO, he would just be digging himself into a bigger hole.
In my opinion he should wait out the 3 months and then after the RO has been lifted, he could make his peace with her if he so wants.
Jo - who pursued like you suggested and got screwed by the courts because of it.
UD, I see what you're saying about continuing on the high road. It is hard. I find myself battling daily with the urge to start up a custody battle. I've caught her in very frequent lies (not challenging her on these, just making notes of it).
Remember the night she called to say she had a flat tire? Well, she did, but the true reason she called me was b/c she had plans to go out, and did so.
I really feel for S5, as he's feeling rejected by her. Starting to experience losing his mother, with his image of her diminished in his eyes. I'm done trying to defend her to him, no more making up excuses about her behavior to him (he seems to see it as it is). I have been doing overtime talking to him about his feelings, and showering him with as much love, affection, and bonding time as I can while he's with me.
Largo, my peanut-butter moment recently happened post-snooping, but I'm still on dating sabbatical 'til I get back into my house ~3mo.
Jo, I agree, no contact other than over S5. She's initiated more than that, but I like your idea of having her digest the consequences of her actions. The judge really watered down the RO in terms of contact, but I'm taking it by its strictest read - no contact other than over S5.
Funny story: W called to harp about my taking S5 to see Star Wars b/c its a pg13 movie. I thanked her for communicating with me her concerns. I told her I was comfortable with my taking him b/c I had him walk out during the 2 parts I thought were to rough for him to see. Otherwise I was okay with it. She went on to tell me why I was wrong, and I said, "I've heard you. But I disagree. I'm confident w/ what I did, and believe it was okay." I noted that we have two different households that will hopefully have some overlap and consistency, but will have some difference as well. "For example, your leaving S5 with your parents is s/t I don't agree with, b/c they abused you, and b/c you can't guarantee that they won't abuse him." She responded, "I only left him there one night!" Lo and behold, S5 pips in from the back seat of her car "Two nights!" and X says quickly "I gotta go. I don't want to talk in front of S5." (I realized she had called from her car when this happened).
You handled the complaint call from your W excellently. I am struck by the fact that your W seems to call you a lot to complain about how you handle S5, not just recently, but in the past as well. There is a lot of frustration and anger inside her and she consistently makes you her target. She appears to have the same streak of "I am better than you" attitude that my W has had through this whole thing. In the first year after bomb I could do nothing right. In the second year, she reluctantly began to accept that I am human after all. In the third year she has begun to admit that I am a good specimen of homo sapiens after all. This sh!t inside the WAW that keeps welling up to the surface will take a long time to get flushed out. I think this is perhaps typical of WAWs from what I have read on this bb. By staying on the high road and stating your positions clearly you are making all her accusations baseless. Good for you.
I hear Jo on the issue of the RO. It may very well be that your W feels free to break the RO, but if you violate it you could get hit with penalties. So it is perhaps best to play it safe.
Gabe, I know how angry the whole situation must make you. But a custody battle will mean the end of your R,and a lot of collateral damage to your S5. I know what you mean by the lies. That is par for the MLC-WAS course. It is all about lying. So, one has to take the lying in stride. If I could record all the lies that my W has told me in the past 3 years it would rival any dictionary of the English language in volume.
UD
The 3 laws of DBing:
1. PMA is critical to DBing.
2. Since drop in WAW's PMA leads to drop in LBS's PMA and vice-versa detachment is critical.
3. Validate to raise WAW's PMA and GAL to raise LBS's.
Starting up a custody battle would only be out of spite and you know that.
My R's with my 3 older kids were ruined because of the custody battle, it is also the reason I am divorced, as prior to that we were looking at houses and he even told his mother he was moving with me.
I had a baby - my last pregnancy - that died because of that custody battle and the stress. I have nightmares all the time about the kids, I'm too upset most of the time to even speak to them on the phone, my impression of Andy as a father has nose-dived, my DD1 barely speaks to me anymore and I find myself DB'ing with the kids too.
Most of the people who know me don't even know I have 4 kids as I'm too ashamed of being non-custodial to tell them.
I was mother of 5 and I became mother of 1. I very nearly lost her too and all of her babyhood was ruined for me in a haze of court fighting and the fact that every time he had visitation, I was afraid I would never see her again.
He nearly got sent to prison, the kids nearly got put in foster care. I lost ALL of my extended relatives in this court battle as they couldn't handle the stress and turned against me.
Most of the friends I had during the M I no longer have because they either took sides or I cut contact after I became non-custodial.
My DD2 was in therapy, threatening to kill herself and I can't even have any modern photos of them about the house as it just damn hurts too much. I have plenty of pictures, but they are all old, from when I still raised them.
The custody battle destroyed my entire family and I can tell you something else, Gabriel, most women aren't as tolerant as me, nor do they try so hard or forgive so long, and it's been 3 and a half years. If you do this custody battle, your XW will not respond in the way I did to Andy and I can almost guarantee you won't get any second chances or opportunities to DB.
Andy could worm his way back in because I showed unconditional love and I forgave him for whatever he did, even with the kids. I just know she won't forgive you for trying to take S5.
So if you want to destroy your entire family, any chance of a friendship with XW, your S5's self-esteem and everything else, go right ahead, but I'm not going to back that.
Gabriel, Not sure if your really contemplating sole custody or not, but I think of it like this. I know I am the more responsible, committed parent, but taking them away from her would do damage to the boys and I just couldnt do that. If there's abuse, neglect or drug abuse then yes one should seek custody. From what your telling me it doesnt sound like this is the case.
Dont take offense at this, but are you or you XW drawing your son into the situation? I ask this because I have a 5 year old boy also. He is not going through the same emotions your boy seems to be going through. Sometimes I think my 5S cant remember us ever being together, simply because he never talks about it, even though 1 year ago we were together. He did tell me one day that he wished Mommy and I didnt argue. Makes me sad to know thats what he remembers.
You have to give till it hurts, then turn around and give a little more. Expect that she will tell you lies or tell you she's going to do something then not do it. Expect it, it will happen. She's going to start dating, if she isn't already and she'll lie to you about that, either because she doesnt want to hurt you or just feels its none of your business.
Believe me, you don't want a custody battle unless you have to do that for S5's sake. If X tries to keep you from seeing him, that's a reason. If she is endangering him, that's a reason. If you're "just" upset over her parenting style, that's not reason enough.
I'm not advising to avoid a custody battle because it would damage the chances for reconciliation. In my case I don't want a reconciliation. I still wish I didn't have as much of a custody battle as I have now. X would fight just as dirty as STBXW does, and your S5 would be just as much the loser as my S5 is right now.
If it gets to the point where you have to fight to see him, or you have to protect him, by all means battle with every ounce of strength in you, and everything we can send you in prayers. But don't go into something like that without having your eyes wide open.
More prayers,
K
My sitch More importantly, Light A Million Candles
No, I don't want a custody battle. When X told me what she went thru as a child at the hands of her mother, I told her that I thought her father was a coward and an @ss for not choosing the kids over his wife when he discovered the abuse. I told her I'd never have made that wrong choice, allowing the abuse to continue.
In my line of work, I've had to take part in many a case involving the termination of a parent's rights. And I take every case very seriously b/c I greatly value the presence of a parent in a child's life.
I won't be starting a custody battle unless I have verified evidence of abuse from X or MIL. Why document? So that if the need arises, I'm not unable to protect my son.
There is nothing right now that leaves me believing that a legal battle is the only route. So I'll continue to vent elsewhere - including here (so sometimes see it as just that)us, my concern for S5, my doubts about X's judgment, and my documentation.
BTW, X called me just 30 min ago to check in w/ me regarding my father's health and how I'm handling it. I had been very brief/abrupt about it when she called me at ~5pm to talk about the same thing, so she called again tonight at ~9pm. I told her it was rough, but I was handling myself fine. I didn't want her pitying or see me as weak, 'cause I'm not.
She went on to reassure me that she is not dating anyone, or going out much, saying, "I hate going out. Its disgusting, the scene is disgusting. I am dressing nicer, trying to look prettier for my own benefit."
I perhaps slipped up here and said, "X, its great that you're doing things for yourself, and its nice to hear that you're feeling good about dressing up. But the kind of man that you deserve would have thought that you were gorgeous before these changes. He would have seen your true quality regardless." She responded, "I'm not doing it to find a man. I don't want a man. I'm an angry, angry person, and all I do is run, run, run to burn it away. I'm angry at you snooping, taking my diary, ...." I apologized for hurting her feelings, but also noted that I don't have her diary.
When she asked about how I was doing, I shared abit about a few fun events in my life, like starting to sing for a small band and our schedule of playing at some open-mike events (no guitar-playing yet). I could literally hear her smile and interest when I commented on that. And the kayaking stuff. She brightened up at this as well, and shared that she's excited to go camping w/ Isaiah. Made me wonder about her highlighting shared interests w/me.
I feel very guarded around her, and maybe the talking wasn't a great idea. However, I didn't reassure her about my dating or not, and I felt relaxed as the convo went on, with my voice displaying a relaxed tone that she probably hasn't heard in about 2 months.
I'm off on a kayaking/fun trip near Savannah Thur/Fri after a morning work meeting, then I'll have S5 w/me over the weekend.
Somebody help me and if it is none of my business, please tell me.
Why is she calling you twice in a day to clearly visit and ask about you and talk about her when she intiated an RO limiting contact regarding S? Am I missing something?
What happens when she gets angry again and says you would not let her off the phone?
I hear what you're saying about MIL and you have a right to be concerned about that - if necessary you can ask for an order stating that he not spent unsupervised time with her.
My kids don't spend unsupervised time with my mother and her stuff was just emotional and mind games.
But I just don't believe that you think your XW would abuse him. I really don't buy that. You've been married to her for years and she's never done anything to harm him. If she had, you would have left her and taken S5. You didn't.
You had a few grumbles over her mothering which I called you up on a few times because I thought you were being too harsh , and you've told me nothing to suggest you think she was abusing him.
When I asked you about your motivation for court before, you stated it was because you were afraid she would move away and not let you see him. I think this is the underlying factor here, that and anger/hurt at her OM and the RO.
From when you started to give up a little on your R, that's when this court stuff came in. You're more than welcome to disagree or think I'm rude, but I think this has more to do with you and XW than it has to do with S5.
As for letting her speak on the phone, Bruce is right. She could say you initiated conversation. When you speak, there is always the possibility of a row and then it will be your word against hers as to what was said, and you'd have no way to back yourself up in court if she chose to take you back there.
The best way to get out of tricky, potientially damaging convo's (and any are with this RO) is not to have those convos.
Also, you are still feeding her need by talking to her. You're not detaching properly. You need to let go completely to give her some incentive to come back to you.
I agree with Jo on this: " From when you started to give up a little on your R, that's when this court stuff came in. You're more than welcome to disagree or think I'm rude, but I think this has more to do with you and XW than it has to do with S5."
But I have to disagree with Jo in the following regard.
Gabe, I am sorry, I am going to be very blunt here and if you decide not to ever entertain me again, I am fine with it. So here goes:
I would think about this a little more. Let me note that your sitch took a nose dive after your trip some months ago. I feel it was because when you returned from the trip you were not 100% committed to DBing. This led to a negative spiral in your R with W. Your W reacted by ratcheting up her irresponsibility and seeking dates etc., you were hurt and snooped, she got upset at being discovered, and then the sh!t hit the fan. Who takes the fallout? - S5. Sorry, Gabe, I cannot spare you my 2x4 whack for partial responsibility in the mess. Unfortunately I cannot administer one to your W.
Now, your W became and is really, really angry. Listen to what she told you. You cannot palliate her anger by fighting her or by ignoring it. You need to tackle it head on, RO or not. She is trying to tell you something and she needed to vent. That is why she called you. Lots of guilt, lots of remorse. She is even reassuring you that she is not dating. Why would she do that? Is this not a positive for you? I just want to point out that your sitch went off track partly because YOU slipped with DBing. I think that your W is trying to push the sitch back to where it was before this negative spiral. How can you help her get back there? You have two choices, like all of us do: 1. Think the worst of your W and act in fear. 2. Think of her as still possessing deep inside the goodness for which you had an M with her. Act in love. Love and fear do not coexist as Deida points out. If you choose 1 you will protect yourself (guarded as you said). If you choose 2 you will make yourself vulnerable and it is a leap of faith. Only you know best what to do.
Sorry, Gabe, I had to call it as it is.
UD
The 3 laws of DBing:
1. PMA is critical to DBing.
2. Since drop in WAW's PMA leads to drop in LBS's PMA and vice-versa detachment is critical.
3. Validate to raise WAW's PMA and GAL to raise LBS's.
and X says quickly "I gotta go. I don't want to talk in front of S5." (I realized she had called from her car when this happened).