Ugh. You are NOT filling my life with sunshine! Were you able to convince your W that counseling was called for, or was that also out-of-bounds? I asked my W to go a little bit ago, but she claimed with her work schedule, it wasn't possible. She is working a ton of hours right now, so I didn't push it. I'm biding my time, waiting until a better opportunity to suggest it comes along.
BTW - I mentioned in an earlier post that there was a Dr. Phil episode she had recorded about couples with sexual problems that I thought we might be able to use as a discussion point. Last night, while looking through the list of recorded items on the DVR, I noticed that it was no longer there - but the other Dr. Phil episode was. Seems suspicious to me....
Tried councelling several years ago without success, became out of bounds after that. Any mention of the topic of our sex life is liking asking to be hit on the head with a hammer - no real point to the pain.
Seems like your wife may also be ducking the sex issue by being too busy for counselling and erasing the Dr. Phil tape on the topic. After one and half years, when does she think it would be a good time to work things out with you? I wonder if she is related to my wife?
Quote: I'll be honest with you, Lil, I'm biting my tongue not to light into you and paste a few labels on you. But I recognize that that is my anger talking and it's usually best not to give into it.
So, what do you get out of it, what does it accomplish and why are you doing it?
MrsNOP -
Quote:
Mrs. NOP, you know what? You're right. He is sick. I am sick for staying with him. I'm sure I get something out of it-- but whatever I get is sick.
I wasn't clear in what I wrote. My intention was not to ask why you are doing what you do with your BF. I intended to ask you why you seem so determined to apply your negative labels in the guise of determining patterns.
From Gross Generalizations So far you've managed to use lazy, immature, selfish, only want to be taken care of, overly sensitive, overly defensive, abnormal.
How exactly does this assist you or anyone on this board to resolve their sexual issues?
I wrote to you earlier, "My concern is what seems to be an ongoing attempt to find a common LD meta-cause from which you can find a solution to your specific relationship problem."
And Corri has asked: "What I would very much like to know is where is all this generalizing getting you? How's it solving your problem?
My guess is it's getting you nowhere. And that's my point."
FWIW, I think you get ticked off at your boyfriend, don't want to express it out loud, attempt to diffuse it by slapping at LD people in general, while deceiving yourself that you're only doing it to gain greater understanding.
Quote: Yesterday was my birthday, and we went out to a nice dinner, came home & had some cake. I knew better than to even ask about sex. While I was blowing out the candles, W commented that I needed to "make a different wish". Seemed like a pretty clear indication not to pursue the issue.
Her health has been troublesome lately, which hasn't helped the situation at all, and she's taken a new job that demands a lot more from her. So at present, I'm not very hopeful about the situation improving - which I guess was why I asked how some other HDHs handle going without.
Gremlin, when NOP began the process of bringing our sexual issues to a head, we reached a point where our daily life became doing the necessities, but we stopped any semblance of happy events.
My heart goes out to men caught in this situation, because the courts are so stacked against dads when it comes to custody. I know many of you hang in there, because of your children.
There was no way to ignore that our lives as we had known them were not going to continue indefinitely.
At some point, in longer-term marriages, I think the spouse must take a stand and withdraw from the activities that give off the aura of "everything is fine with us". That doesn't mean pitching fits or avoiding things that can hurt the kids or choosing to ignore household chores and responsibilities. I'm thinking of all the things you might currently be doing that are personal for your spouse - back rubs, foot rubs, acquiscing to their choice on tv/movie viewing if it's not something you want to watch, flowers & candy, bringing home their favorite ice cream, taking them out to dinner, planning for or attending parties.
Your wife managed to get a verbal dig into you. She made a great offensive move and stopped you before you even left the line of scrimmage. What if you just let your birthday past and chose not to go out to dinner? Chose not to come home and blow out candles and eat birthday cake? This can't be done from a "now you'll see what it's like" place of revenge - but from a place of "I am no longer willing to pretend that I am happy or content, and this is something that I am serious enough about that it will impact my daily actions in marital participation.
Mrs. NOP, thanks for your comments. It puzzles me that you characterize my comments as "slapping at LD people in general." It's the word slapping that has me stumped.
And I'm astounded that you would cite a post from September 11 a year ago. That was post number 1; this one will be post number 1,268. I believe I've learned and grown in over 1,200 posts and a year of reading and interacting on this board.
But (correct me if I'm wrong, and I know you will ), is what you're saying that I would rather make unhelpful generalizations about LD people than knuckle down and actually work on my R?
There is some truth to this point (if this is your point) in that I spend a lot of energy looking for general things about LD behavior that I think might shine some light on my sitch. And my tendency to focus on my partner and not GAL is definitely a sickness. I formed the habit early in life and it reached fruition in my marriage to my late husband where if I didn't watch him all the time, he could get into real trouble (and did on several occasions-- pneumonia, two heart attacks, fell and broke a hip from an insulin reaction). I'm probably still suffering from PTSD. And then I go and get involved with an alcoholic. <sigh> Sick. But searching for a cure.
It is key to remember that my sitch is quite different from most of the people here. I'm not married to him. Our households and finances are separate. We don't have kids (although he has two that I'm very attached to). We've only been together for three years. Each one of these things is pretty much the opposite of the situations of the others in this community. Another thing that makes me different is my age. In two months, I'll be 57. How much time to I have left? 20-25 years, if all goes well... how many of those will be good years...
In a way, I guess I'm looking for a reason to bail or to stay. This is the root of my sometimes negative tone. I'm not fully committed to this R-- yet. I want to find a reason to be committed, but so far the lack of... well, you know... the stuff I write about... is making me think I don't want to stay in this R forever. My individual "work" with him (and the experiences we had with the two therapists-- I don't know if your lack of experience with them means you don't "believe" in them) doesn't offer me much hope for the kind of R I'm truly looking for. He has made tremendous changes in his life since I met him, but there's not been much change in our physical and affectionate life. So I search these posts and the web and books to find some hope Out There. I'm not seeing much hope In Here.
And even in this community, you seem to be the only LD spouse who was/is willing to consistently step up to the plate year after year. Not everyone is you with your love and tenacity. I work for an organization that serves severely disabled individuals. They look at Christopher Reeve and feel discouraged that they don't have the dedication and commitment that he did. (God rest his soul.) It's like cancer patients who feel bad because they can't be Lance Armstrong. Not all LD spouses are a Mrs. NOP.
The bottom line is that I'm looking for hope. That's where the generalizations come in... it is LIKELY that I will see a change in his behavior? What are the odds? What have others done? What does the research say? What does anyone say?
I find generalizations useful... and we generalize a lot on this board. Our convos about the enneagram are generalizations, so is talk about alcoholism, and affairs ("all affairs are THIS and must be dealt with THIS way"-- BTW this contradicts my own experience with affairs).
I'm struggling, too, just like everyone else. In a way my struggle is easier because I'm not married and commingled financially... but I also have less time to get it right before I run out of time.
Quote: Mrs. NOP, thanks for your comments. It puzzles me that you characterize my comments as "slapping at LD people in general." It's the word slapping that has me stumped.
I characterize a "pattern" of posting negative generalized assessments as the equivalent of slapping. It has not been limited to your earliest posts although it was an earlier one I referenced.
Quote: There is some truth to this point (if this is your point) in that I spend a lot of energy looking for general things about LD behavior that I think might shine some light on my sitch.
I see you taking negative things from your boyfriend and extrapolating them out to others. The focus is not going from the general to the specfic, it is going from the specific to the general. How does asserting that LDs are lazy help your situation? How does declaring the LDs don't like affection shed any light for you?
What enlightenment do you think you get when you do this?
I see it as the equivalent of
"Christians are hypocrites" "Men are animals" "Women are bitchy" "Southerners are rednecks"
Show me how it's different.
Show me how an atheist is enlightened by the assertion about Christians.
Show me how a woman is enlightened by the assertion about men.
Show me how a man is enlighted by the assertion about women.
Show me how a Californian is enlightened by the assertion about Southerners.
Quote: The bottom line is that I'm looking for hope. That's where the generalizations come in... it is LIKELY that I will see a change in his behavior? What are the odds? What have others done? What does the research say? What does anyone say?
I find generalizations useful... and we generalize a lot on this board. Our convos about the enneagram are generalizations, so is talk about alcoholism, and affairs ("all affairs are THIS and must be dealt with THIS way"-- BTW this contradicts my own experience with affairs).
But the generalizations you are spouting AREN'T hopeful. Unless by hope you mean that you get to join with as many that want to join you declaring that they are also doing all the work and their spouses are lazy, immature, etc.
Your experience with affairs is from the position of the "other person". Unless those men's wives were sharing with you how their life was affected, then your assessment of affairs is hampered by your lack of understanding and your experience of being on the other side. I don't see how you could attempt to equate being someone's affair partner with being the betrayed wife. That position does not give you greater insight into the affair dynamics and how they damage a marriage. I'll say it very plainly, your experience in a number of affairs as the other woman doesn't elevate your understanding of affairs as it impacts the family that has been betrayed or what that process might be for that family.
Who has said that "all affairs are this"? I know NOP has said that all cheating spouses are liars. Is that what you're referencing? Do you disagree?
You say you want to look for patterns in your situation, but it's not situational patterns you're requesting. You're looking for backup on whether or not your negative assessment of your boyfriend and LD people has anyone in the "amen" corner.
There are patterns in how affairs proceed.
There are patterns in how sexual differences are expressed in marriages.
There are patterns in how relationships proceed.
Looking at the *patterns* in the HD/LD conflicted *relationship* will cause you to look at your boyfriend's AND your behavior. Looking at the relational dynamics will force you to face your own poor behavior/choices/responses as well as assessing your boyfriend's. Continually looking for a pattern of negative ATTRIBUTES is nothing more than scapegoating and blaming.
Yes and no - right now, she really is too busy for counseling. That hasn't always been the case though.
Whenever I try to discuss our problems (specifically the lack of a SL), she either says that she doesn't want to talk about it, period, or we discuss it for a few minutes, rehashing the same things we've said every other time until she says "I don't want to talk about it anymore." This happened last night (after I asked for S again).
The frustrating thing is, she's been a sympathetic ear to a friend who is really suffering from the fallout related to an affair she had with a guy in our horse club. Nearly everone in the club is ostracizing her or being cruel, but my W has been non-judgmental and willing to talk with this woman about her situation. In fact, she was on a call with her last night for nearly an hour! So although she may not have time to see a counselor, there's definitely time in our lives to discuss our R problems. Unfortunately, every time we do, we never get to anything of any significance (I complain about the problem, she acknowledges it exists, I ask for solutions/expectations, she says "don't know, don't want to talk about anymore."
I would have a hard time pulling off this sort of behavior without it coming across as petulant, bitter, and "pouty". I don't know that it would have the desired effect.
As far as making myself more scarce, with me working at home, it would be tough for me to "not come home" from work!
I have tried to be more emotionally and physically distant, but I always get drawn back in to wanting to touch her, so I give her back rubs, foot rubs, or pretty much any other excuse I can find to touch. Maybe I just haven't reached the point of there being enough pain from being rejected that this strategy is something I could use.
I think you just answered the question as to whether your wife has enough time to go to counselling for your situation - the answer is yes. From what you say, she does not want to address the situation, at least at this time. It is quite possible that your wife truly has no sex drive. Perhaps in her mind, there is no upside to going to a counsellor because it will confirm that: (a) in some way she is "inadequate" as a wife and (b) She really doesn't have the desire to rekindle her sex drive at this time, she is quite happy without sex - by going to counselling it will put additional pressure on her to do something that she really isn't interested in.
Your wife appears to have a sympathetic ear to a club member who was having an affair with some other married guy - I wonder how sympathetic she would be if this woman had the affair with you as part of your search for some romantic connection that is otherwise absent in your married life?
Gremlin - I have not really seen any tried and true formulas for success when one spouse totally looses his/her sex drive and doesn't have the ability to focus on the effect of this situation on the spouse. It is very curious that it seems possible for the ND spouse to intellectually understand that affairs and marriage break ups are generally common in this situation but it just doesn't somehow relate to them.
Apart from having an affair or visiting the local cat house frequently (neither of which really address what we really want which is to have a long term committed physical and emotional connection with someone), I suppose the only other solution after all else has failed is to provide an ultimatum to the wife and really mean it - ie "regain some form of interest in intimacy or loose me". Obviously, this is a last resort, and you do not appear to be anywhere near this point. Anyway, best of luck - I know I continue to struggle with this situation every day.
), is what you're saying that I would rather make unhelpful generalizations about LD people than knuckle down and actually work on my R? 
