I cut this from the end of Honey's "Anger Management" thread, which locked up.
Cemar brought up the subject of testosterone. Mrs. NOP had some responses:
Quote: Cemar, testosterone for women is protected like gold in Fort Knox.
Trust me when I say, whether dealing with male or female physicians - medical care for women's sexuality in the general medical market is of subpar quality.
I'm under the impression that the makers of the testosterone patch tried to get it approved for low libido treatment in women and the FDA turned it down because of some of the risks. I haven't really researched this. T for women is considered an unapproved use, so the doctor is on his own. Considering the HRT fiasco, doctors are probably gun shy about giving out hormone scrips to women these days.
Mrs NOP also said,
Quote: So, I've finagled another blood test in the upcoming week. Which results I will most likely be sending to physicians who also play doctors on the internet, in the hopes of pursuing a hormone cocktail that might replenish what I'm missing.
I don't know if you have read about this but there was a recent study in JAMA showing that serum testosterone levels are a poor predictor of female libido. There is another article about it here. So I don't think they really have a good answer for the chemical origins of female libido. I remember reading something about oxytocin - maybe someone will work on that.
Mrs. NOP, I'm a little surprised to see you pursuing the pharmaceutical angle. I understand that you don't have the "oh baby I want to verb your noun tonight" kind of desire, but that it's more like the "I want to feel really close tonight and show you how much I love you" kind of desire. If my wife showed even the latter kind of desire, I'd be doing cartwheels .
I'm just curious why you would contemplate hormonal roulette when it doesn't sound to me like there is anything wrong with you.
SM
"If we will be quiet and ready enough, we shall find compensation in every disappointment." Henry David Thoreau
Quote: I'm just curious why you would contemplate hormonal roulette when it doesn't sound to me like there is anything wrong with you.
I have Reichman's book referenced in the article you listed.
Quote from article: "Reichman is a gynecologist who practices at Cedar-Sinai Medical Center in Los Angeles. Her best-selling book I’m Not in the Mood addresses sex problems among women.
“I don’t think anybody really believed that a blood test alone could predict libido,” she tells WebMD. “All kinds of things can and do contribute to the problem, including medications, relationship issues, and stress. You can’t just look at one thing and say, ‘Ah ha, we’ve found it.’”" End Quote:
She references medications, relationship issues and stress as things that contribute to the problem. I'm not on any meds, I appear to be in excellent health, I've never had any significant health issues, our relation is in a good place, I do still deal with stress however the level of stress is magnitudes lighter than it used to be.
I'm not chasing testosterone alone. I am now fully into menopause and I don't intend to become one of the (what I call) shriveled ladies who end up with no muscle, collapsed spinal vertebrae, and holes in their hip bones. I am also beginning to encounter an increasing inability to climax - buildup is great but then I can't make it over the hump.
Reichman's book (which I can't put my hands on right now) dealt with her own ability to climax. And although a physician herself, she encountered the prejudice the medical community in general tends to exhibit when dealing with women's sexual issues.
I am frankly appalled at the quality of health care for women. I have discovered that although we can and do respond to medications differently, we are treated as "mini-men". Health care for women is primarily geared toward pregnancy and fertility issues. But it becomes a morass of ignorance when a woman is dealing with anything outside the box. A woman over the age of 30 who encounters any difficulty with her periods and/or associated symptoms will be advised early in the game that she needs an hysterectomy. And forget dealing with women entering and into menopause. There is no sense of "we'll work with you on this and see if we can find a solution" there is *very* much a sense of - "GEEEZZ! You're an old lady, your vagina is supposed to dry up and get thinner. Deal with it! You want orgasms at your age?".
Can you tell I'm a bit miffed at the medical community?
First a little history. I found this group about 2 years ago when my marriage was heading for divorce court because my husband was HD and a very sensual man but I was LD most of our marriage. We received extremely bad counseling about 15 years ago in which the psychologist told my husband that sex was not a need like food, water and air and that he could survive without sex. Well, I took that advice to heart and it nearly destroyed our marriage.
I found Michelle's book and this board about 2 years ago. Through some of the HD husbands' postings, I have come to understand my husband's point of view and have discovered my own sensuality. I am basically where Mrs. Nop is; I understand that touching and sex means love to my husband and I willingly open myself in this way to him. No way do I have the touching need that he does for various reasons but I understand it is important to him.
Anyway, what caused me to post is Mrs. Nop's post about finding a doctor to help her with her hormones and I can help! My daughter has been seeing a Dr. Elizabeth Vliet who is EXCELLANT!! She is based in Arizona but maintains a medical office for a week once a month in Dallas. Look her up on Amazon. She has written several books on women's hormones and her latest book, which I have purchased, is "The Savvy Woman's Guide to Testosterone: How to Revitalize Your Sexuality, Strength and Stamina". Mrs. Nop, she is fantastic! Women fly in from around the country to see her and she is very down to earth but highly educated.
She does have a website, which does seem to be down, www.herplace.com. Her main office's phone number in Arizona is (520) 797-9131. You can call this number to get more information about her.
I hope you do try to find out about Dr. Vliet. She is excellant and really understands about women's hormones.
Linda
Linda! Wanted to welcome you to the board and thank you for the info! I'll be looking into it further this week.
Okay, so how *did* you manage to read here for 2 years and not join in?
So, you know you can't just let that be the only one. Pull up a chair and join in!
MrsNOP, Thank you for writing this. It so eloquently lays out my experience of the last 8 months. I hope that you find some answers.
Did you say that your testosterone was low? Honestly, how do they know when dealing with women? Aren't we all low? Just curious.
I have long wondered about my oxytocin levels. I do not make an adequate amount of breastmilk and have to take unapproved meds to help me produce enough milk for my babies. Of course, this has never been tested. Were I to bring up a possible hormonal imbalance, the doc'd take one look at me and begin furiously scribbling out a prescription for birth control pills. That and a hysterectomy are the cure-alls, don'tchaknow. You are right, it's insane.
I wish you the best with your tests. However they turn out, we all think you're perfect the way you are!
MrsNop said, "I am frankly appalled at the quality of health care for women. I have discovered that although we can and do respond to medications differently, we are treated as "mini-men". Health care for women is primarily geared toward pregnancy and fertility issues. But it becomes a morass of ignorance when a woman is dealing with anything outside the box. A woman over the age of 30 who encounters any difficulty with her periods and/or associated symptoms will be advised early in the game that she needs an hysterectomy. And forget dealing with women entering and into menopause. There is no sense of "we'll work with you on this and see if we can find a solution" there is *very* much a sense of - "GEEEZZ! You're an old lady, your vagina is supposed to dry up and get thinner. Deal with it! You want orgasms at your age?"."
Okay, maybe it's because I live in Dallas in which several very good teaching hospitals are located or maybe it's because I am used to searching out the leading drs. in the medical field in which I was having a problem, but I am not finding this disconnect between female medicine and male medicine. You see, I also suffered from infertility and went from dr. to dr. until I found myself in the dr.'s office of the pioneer of in vitro fertilization. When I tried to have subsequent babies but kept miscarrying, I ended up in a top infertility specialist's office diagnosed with antiphospholipid antibodies in which research was being done at a local hospital in Dallas. Then when my daughter started having hormonal problems, we found Dr. Vliet. MrsNop, I can't stress enough how good she is.
I certainly don't mean this to sound like you haven't done enough to search out doctors. I'm just saying that the Drs. are out there and I guess I have been lucky to have lived in areas where the research is being done.
I don't know where you live but it might be worth a trip down to Dallas for some consults. I can give you several more recommendations for drs. in this area.
What I have always done, which sounds like you have done also, is researched, read and printed out all the information I can find on the particular condition. I buy the books written by drs. on the condition. Then I arm myself with all of this information and make an appt. to see a doctor and present my case. If this doctor doesn't listen, I move on to another one. I also gather names of doctors in the area that might have had experience in this field. Please know that I am not trying to criticize you. I am not trying to say that you haven't done enough.
You ask why it has taken my two years to speak up. Well, for one reason, I don't feel like I am very articulate and I get very frustrated with my inability to express myself. But I had to respond to your post about finding doctor with an interest in women's healthcare. I had to inform you of Dr. Vliet.
The subject of testosterone for women was kind of hot a few years ago... ~10 years, I think. I went to my doc and got a prescription for cream that has testosterone in it... they make it up at a compounding pharmacy. I was feeling very LD during that time (it was probably depression). You apply it to the external vaginal tissue. I didn't find that it made any difference in the way I felt, but maybe I didn't use it long enough, or had too much other stuff on my plate at the time.
I couldn't agree with you more that healthcare for women is inadequate. I would go so far as to say that US healthcare in general is pretty much driven by the interests of managed care and pharmaceutical companies and not by the needs of consumers, but enough of that rant.
I am LD which has been an ongoing issue in my marriage, but my R with my HDH has improved over the last few months, chiefly from insights I have gained from reading SSM and this BB as well as from recent and ongoing counseling.
[A NOTE: I work FT and too much time spent on this BB subtracts from my limited free time and so aggravates my H, who thinks if I have that much time to sit at the computer we might as well be in bed and he's partially right, so my reading/posting has diminished recently.]
Last month I raised the issues of libido and testosterone at my annual checkup with my PCP (a female internist). I was not pushing for it; just questioning pros/cons, but she was not encouraging.
[Some hormone history: I am postmenopausal and took HRT for 4 years (estrogen/progesterone) until a couple of years ago. I didn't have hotflashes but did have vaginal dryness and the signs of osteoporosis (runs in my family). My ob/gyn had been gungho HRT - she said: good for bones, menopausal symptoms, heart, Alzheimers etc - but except for the first 2, other benefits have been disproven and risks discovered. My PCP was not enthusiastic and urged me to stop HRT after 4 years due to possible cancer risk with longterm use. I stopped and now use an Estring (worn intravaginally and secretes a very small amount of estrogren locally - much less risk than oral estrogen and very helpful for vag dryness and general better feeling down there) and take Fosamax for bones. Also I belong to a Y and try to lift weights 2-3xweek - about 6 years ago I discovered the books by Miriam Nelson on weight training eg "Strong Women Stay Young" which emphasize a small group of free weight exercises for beginners - I now do a full Nautilus circuit at the gym.]
Anyway, my PCP said that if I took Testosterone I would also need to take Estrogen which I have already rejected for longterm use. I don't know if that is due to being post-menopausal or if it's true for all women.
So there are pros/cons, and each person must weigh them for themselves. I will be very interested to hear what you find out and hope it is helpful for you.
best, Doglover
There are many wise, empathetic and funny people here: you are my buddies - I'm grateful for your support.
I was kind of understanding that in the medical community, when treating women in menopause for hormones, they were mainly concerned with her health and not her sexuality, and therefore they might prescribe treatments that will actually LOWER your testoserone. Some of the female hormeones will gobble up the testsoterone and lock it away where it can never be used. So be careful and make sure the doctors treating you understand that you want a positive impact on your health AND SEXUALITY.
I have read stuff from the Bermman Sisters and when women come to them for sexual problems, they STRONGLY urge these women to start working out almost everyday. It will give the women a more positive body image and will also start generating testosterone, which they see as a MAJOR problem in women.
Having gone down the medical libido problem route with my W. Let me chime in here a bit about testosterone. My w gyno prescribed testosterone for her in a pill form, I think it did help libido, but not very much, plus the mood swings and other side effects weren’t good. She then tried the cream, still side effects and not really a satisfying reaction.
Our key was the thyroid, I cant say this enough on here. Checking her thyroid PROPERLY changed the whole dynamic. I have a bunch of posts on here about thyroid deficiencies and libido. I would strongly recommend that if you are thinking of going on hormone therapy for low libido you fully investigate the thyroid too by going to an endocrinologist, and not using the general practitioner. The lab test results for thyroid and also for testosterone can be very tough to interpret, plus the guidelines given from the labs have ‘normal’ ranges that may not be normal for most people.
After going on thyroid medication, the change in her desire was significant. It manifested itself both physically and mentally/emotionally.
Quote: I would strongly recommend that if you are thinking of going on hormone therapy for low libido you fully investigate the thyroid too by going to an endocrinologist, and not using the general practitioner.
HDSocal, I did go to an female endo doc and as you know, what constitutes "normal" when it comes to thyroid is something of a wide range. I went in for a full blood workup geared toward addressing libido issues (and of course, anything else that might have shown up). I got a mammagram out of it.
Even though I had classic thyroid symptoms:
Subgrade temp continuously. Always cold when everyone else was warm. Fatigue. Needed 10 hours of sleep. Difficulty losing weight on a calorie-restrictive diet while working out 3 - 4 days a week for a minimum of 2 hrs.
.
