WM... I think it's great that you have been able to figure out what you need from W to make the sexual expereince more complete. My H and I are working on communication, but I still find myself in a position of trying to figure out what he needs from me. There were times he had trouble " finishing" but we didn't talk about it; I brought it up once and he replied that it didn't matter to him, that he just enjoyed being with me, etc. but it bothered me. I am sure he did mind but didn't want to deal with it.
Anyway, I have figured out that when I put more of myself into things at the end, and he can feel my love, he's a goner. But the cool thing is that because he needs this, it actually enhances the experience for me! It's like we create a safer, warmer interaction than would have been the case without this extra piece.
My point is, by coming forward with what you want, you may in fact be bringing something to the mix for the two of you to enjoy. Communication is such a good thing.
Responding to your most recent post, the whole post, so I'm not going to quote bits and pieces....Oh wow! It is so great to read your words about having experienced this and that ultimately it brought the two of you closer.
I've kind of been down in the doldrums this week, knowing I need to talk to W about this. But mostly because she cancelled our Sunday night date last weekend at the Eleventh Hour. So now I’m faced with not only explaining the win-win I'm hoping for, but also how bummed I've become increasingly so every day this week about the blow off last Sunday.
Not that I'm expecting that our ultimate resolution to the popping issue will turn out as positive as your sitch, it still lifts me up to know that if we really come together and communicate about this that our SL "could" get better and more intimate. So at least I can approach one of the communication topics with a PMA.
Do you ever think that going through all the changes that maturing puts people through was actually designed to bring couples closer together? Like first a couple goes through the issues of a man popping too soon. Then they go through all the issues of pregnancy and childbirth. Then there's the raising kids together. Then there is perimenopause, menopause, and for the man, I think they call it andropause. It's like we grow together and more used to each other, and more silent, and then the next phase hits us and we start all over again having to explain ourselves and see how our mate or ourself is going to respond and assimilate to the new you or the new me. (This thought and the next one as well are both rhetorical and not meant for IHJ alone to have to grapple with, rather, all readers are invited to ponder.)
In a similar stream of consciousness, do you ever think that maybe all the HD/LD interaction between spouses was meant to keep us itching and scratching at each other's egos, and not let us grow apart and indifferent as long as we choose to keep choosing to be together with each other?
Well, the next two days will be very interesting. Will we both choose to do what it takes to get closer? (Sounds like a HD question, hey?) (HD response…I hope so!)
WM... Again, I think it's great that you are coming forward to express to your W what you need from her; it's a big step in personal responsibility, and I hope it goes well for you. My H keeps an "everything is okay" appearance in order to avoid conflict; under stress it's his automatic default place to be, and I am left in a position of trying to figure out if something more is going on for him. So, I am going ahead and doing a Cemar... I would give ANYTHING to have a H who would express his needs clearly--these LE ( low expressive) men just don't get it,lol! Back to IHJ mode, I have to say that I am aware that I chose a man with a laid back personality so I could do more easily what I wanted to; I tried to take a short cut, but eventually paid a price. In the end, there is no substitute for truly good communication between two people, which brings me to your question:
Do you ever think that going through all the changes that maturing puts people through was actually designed to bring couples closer together?
I believe that changes and challenges are an inevitable part of life, and can provide the opportunity for closeness and growth, if we choose that path. I think whatever higher power that's designed this obstacle course is having a pretty good laugh, don'tyou think
Anway, I will stop with the philosophizing and wish you a nice weekend!
I second what others have said about the need to talk with your W about your needs. I would just caution that you seem to have built this up in your mind to a monumental task. It might help if you could consider babysteps toward your goal. Multiple small conversations might be easier all around.
I agree with the earlier post from someone (sorry - no time to check back and be specific) that prolonged IC can ultimately become uncomfortable for some women. My H told me recently that I once communicated that to him and that knowledge now sometimes holds him back from "popping". I wish I could undo the words; but on the other hand it was/is true. MrsNOP's suggestions are, as usual, practical - having lots of lube available helps. But that may not be the whole solution. One way around it for me is for some ML sessions to be a chance for him to come first (I say "this one is your turn").
As we (H and I) are trying to communicate more often and more clearly our needs and desires, I am over and over impressed by how different they sometimes are. We just cannot intuit each others needs based on our own. E.g. H loves it when I grab him right there; it is a big turn on. However, I love to be teased all over before we settle down for the ultimate goal. We had to talk about this - and still have to sometimes remind each other of our differences.
It wasn't easy for me to talk about any of this, but is getting easier due to practice. The frank talk on this BB has also helped me enormously. Also an empathic (female) counselor has helped.
Part of my hangup was admitting that I had difficulties when my H seemed to have none. In a strange way, the fact that my H now has some ED issues has given our R a more reciprocal feel. (As I write this, it comes out strangely - By NO way do I mean that I am glad that he is having problems. In fact, given how devastating ED is, his current problems are doubtless more painful than mine have been in the past). But it is the case that it puts me in the position of needing to think more about my H's needs and desires than before when his success seemed automatic.
Anyway, I don't know if/how any of this can apply to you. But I urge you to attempt to begin and continue the ongoing conversations between the two of you about what you each want and need. Start with babysteps, but be as specific as you can be so as not to be misunderstood. And be as positive as you can be ("I love it when you ...") rather than focusing on the negative.
Good luck! DogLover
There are many wise, empathetic and funny people here: you are my buddies - I'm grateful for your support.
This is from Monday night. I never completed the posting process.
Doglover wrote,
WB,
I second what others have said about the need to talk with your W about your needs. I would just caution that you seem to have built this up in your mind to a monumental task. It might help if you could consider babysteps toward your goal. Multiple small conversations might be easier all around.
Mrs. NOP wrote (in a post to hairdog):
It's the "if something went wrong I must have been responsible for it".
Rethink this throughout the rest of your relationship.
If you discover that you are invariably the one who apologizes, retreats, is in the dog house, on the other side, always wrong - then unless you really are the biggest a$$h*le in the world - rethink the positions you are automatically taking, or to which you allow yourself to be assigned.
I think less agressive people who don't have an interest in controlling the relationship, controlling their spouse, being right all the time, forcing their preferences on others, etc. are at a distinct disadvantage when dealing with a spouse who *does* have these attributes.
When you're capable of accepting that you could err, could get it wrong, might have not been clear, might not have understood - you're a one-legged man in a butt-kicking context when you're dealing with a spouse that comes from an opposing place. Because you are usually open to the possibility that you're getting it wrong, doing it wrong. Match that type up with the type of personality that is seldom if ever open to the possibility that they could err, the spouse who can accept that they make mistakes will be the spouse constantly accepting the responsibility/blame.
In many relationships there is a give and take. An equality between partners where each acquieces to the other at times. If nothing ever acquieces your way - YOUR NOT ALWAYS THE ONE AT FAULT.
Mrs. NOP your post definitely applies to my sitch. This is why baby steps seem so important to me right now, as well as the way to proceed at least short term. Before we started getting along within the last two months, every time we would have a discussion, it would turn into an argument, and she would tell me, “It’s all about you. As always, it’s all about you.” This, of course was laying a guilt trip on me, and also a great way to end an argument with her having the upper hand.
What I don’t really understand is this. Here she is the LDW telling me, the HDH how I’m always the one who gets things wrong and needs to be straightened out? To me, this seems to be a HD spouse response to a LD spouse. No? But then again, I’m OK with being wrong. A new term here (to me at least), HCW = High Controlling Wife / LCH = Low Controlling Husband.
I finally got what she was saying a few weeks ago. Her saying that it was all about me, was absolving her from any guilt in the R because if it was all about me, not one little part of what was going on that was negative or conflicting, or contrary to her vision of our life together was in actuality, her fault! It couldn’t be her fault if everything was about me!
Thank God she has stopped saying that to me. Now we can talk. But I’m sensing that I’m not entirely over that period in our R, so I want to take it at a baby steps approach.
So this past weekend, some baby steps, as well as some big steps… Friday night I told my W how pissed off I was about her canceling our “date” the Sunday night before. She accepted that, but said she thought I sounded pissy. We talked further about it on Saturday afternoon and I told her that I wanted to reschedule our Sunday night dates to Friday night, even though it meant that she would probably have to come home on Friday afternoon after her work week was over and take a nap in order to be “up” for our date later that night when my 2nd shift job let out. She thought about her recent dilemma with Sunday nights, getting up “fresh for work” Monday AM vs. napping and dealing with Saturday AM (work at home cleaning, etc., not her profession) and agreed to Friday night dates. When she agreed that we could change our date night from Sunday to Friday, she joked about not having to have a Sunday night date this weekend. I just let that comment pass for the moment since I was happy she was agreeable to the date night change. (Baby steps; be thankful for the progress WM.)
Then she went on to tell me out of the blue that she had gone to the “Y” three times last week to swim and work out, and that she’s trying to lose weight again. Doing so would not only help us in our R, it would help her live a healthier lifestyle. (Aside note: according to AMA standards she needs to lose 40 – 50 lbs. I need to lose an additional 10 lbs.) My standards say she only has to lose enough additional weight for her to feel comfortable about ML with the lights on (I enjoy doing her orally that way better than in the dark). And I don’t require that all that often. During the course of our conversation, I gave her a big hug, kissed her, and told her that I loved her. In response she looked at me with that funny little look of hesitation, so I helped her, by coaxing her to say the words in return, “I love you, too.” This was a MAJOR step, as a matter of fact, the defining moment of the entire week and weekend for me. She has not told me that she loves me for years!! WOA is my secondary language of love, PT coming in first.
We made it through the rest of Saturday w/o more intimate conversation, except when I asked her if she would want to ML that night after we watched a movie together. That was so I would know upfront whether or not to take my Vi@gr@. She said yes after huffing and puffing a few times.
So the ML went like this…We put on a sexy CD up in the bedroom, we had a candle lit, we had other soft lights on. Lots of kisses, hugs, and holding her close to start things out. Then I kissed her neck and she giggled like a little girl and told me to stop it. I was tickling her. Got past that, went lower, got her into it, did the things I’ve learned empirically over the years and gave her a very satisfying O.
Then it was my turn, I was already in her and feeling good and randy. I kept climbing for a while, and then sensed I was at my plateau rather than continuing to climb. I relaxed a bit on to my side, turning both of us, thinking that would help me regain my feelings of passion that I was so into a few moments before. But instead of feelings of passion returning, the feelings of anxiety that have been creeping in to our special place recently showed up.
When the anxiety that I was no longer climbing struck, I was done in once more. Even though I had taken my Vi@gr@ earlier that night, my body couldn’t override my anxiety and soon I was climbing off of my W and laying down next to her in a state of confusion. I was thinking Vi@gr@ couldn’t be failing me(?); yet all the books I’ve read stating that sex is 90% a function of the brain seemed more accurate at the moment, because here I am and I’m dealing with all of this “You aint going nowhere once you’re stuck on that plateau.” anxiety stuff.
So there you have it, she popped, I did not pop; the ML act is over for now; so what do we say to each other? Do we have this heart to heart discussion about all the details of this most recent event? Do I share my thoughts of what was happening to me while I was losing my “thruster” to anxiety? Remember, I am still in my mindset, because we don’t wash away the events of days-gone-by all that quickly dealing with, “It’s all about you. It’s always all about you.” No. Instead, I took a baby step and got her to hold me down there where I want her to hold me while I am climbing or starting to plateau, so our ML outcome could be more mutual. I tell her how good it feels when she touches me and holds me there. Now I’m trying to forget about, “It’s all about you. It’s always all about you.” Also in baby steps. And trying to focus on her words from Saturday afternoon, “I love you, too!”
On Sunday night, we almost got together. Sunday was the hottest day of the year here. Earlier in the afternoon, we went to a graduation party for a friend who just got her MS degree in Education. Then we came home and I changed the sheets on our bed and made dinner for all fours of us, D23 and S19 joined us.
After dinner, which was late (too hot to cook earlier), I didn’t know whether or not our Sunday night date was still on or not because she went up to our BR which is air conditioned and put on the DVD “Ray” which is over two hours long. I mentioned that I smelled and needed to take a shower. She took that to mean that we were having a Sunday night date after all once I showered, while I understood her putting on a two hour DVD as meaning she was having a date with “RAY” instead of me. Baby steps backwards, I guess.
Webermiester wrote on Cemar's thread and I replied
Webermiester wrote:
You have no idea how much I would like to know why she thought sex would become an addiction and why she chose to not let herself get into it
We both work Monday thru Friday. She works mornings, I work evenings. When I come home at night, she’s already asleep. When she gets up, I’m asleep.
I had something like this happen to me when I had back surgery. BB said she was devistated we could not have sex very often at the time so she decided it was better to shut off those sexy feelings.
In your case, if your W is a ML person when she goes to bed, you not being there in the early evening leaves her in a bind because you are not there to fill her sexual and emotional tank when she might need it the most. I know for my own relationship timing was off several times and created more problems than I would have imagined. Don't play down timing. It is more important to some people than you can imagine.
Like Lil said, If she MB's while you are not home during the week and feels uncomfortable about it, That might also play into the "addiction" comment. If she feels addicted to sex do you think she might feel you need to come home a couple nights a week to fill her sexual needs. It might work out if you had a pizza delivery job or a job where you could flexable with your hours. But who would want to leave after ML anyway. The cuddeling after is so nice.
Just something to think about. It kind of happened to BB and me. The timing and availability thing really does influence some peoples feelings more than others.
If you two worked the same shift and went to bed together, would it be easier for your W to get into sex/ML. After all she could depend on you being there every day if she really felt she was addicted to sex. Then according to Women's Masturbation Experiences some really like both varities of feeling sexual and don't want to depend on one form for their only satisfaction method.
Thanks for your post, and for bringing it back here to my thread.
Quote: In your case, if your W is a ML person when she goes to bed, you not being there in the early evening leaves her in a bind because you are not there to fill her sexual and emotional tank when she might need it the most. I know for my own relationship timing was off several times and created more problems than I would have imagined. Don't play down timing. It is more important to some people than you can imagine.
Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned something so fleeting as her one time comment about being afraid that sex could become an addiction if she let herself get into it. That IS a highly charged comment that probably revvvvvvved up some HD people on the BB here. If you knew her, even back when she made the comment, you would think of it as idle chatter or the communication equivalent of airwave static. I only mentioned it in the context of CeMar's perfect wording thread, as an example of perfectionism.
Quote: PS. Speaking of perfection, I'd like to find the key that would unlock her desire. When we were first married, she told me that she was afraid of becoming addicted to sex.
Before I took my current job 10 years ago, that has been very good to us as a family, financially speaking, I was home with her at night. It was not about timing. The timing was always in favor of the sitcom reruns that she always preferred over ML. From my original sitch, even when we were first married, she preferred the at-the-time-fresh reruns of the Mary Tyler Moore show. "Love is all around". Bullship. Love is right here in the bedroom next to you and you'd rather get off on TV reruns.
As of 10 years ago when we both worked in the morning, she has not, to the best of MY knowledge (I'm her H. I'm the one who has been married to her all these years.) felt any sort of urge to MB. Back then there were a lot of mornings that I would wake up before our alarm clock would go off and want to ML. Most of the time she was not interested and would answer my desire by turning her back to me (rather than her ML parts) so I'd dry hump her butt. It was a fairly nice compromise, and I still enjoy doing that today. But no, she wasn't into it, definitely not addicted to it. She passed on it on many occasions. It was just something to say. The problem is HD people pick up on things like that when they are said and it sticks to us. 27 years later, I still remember her airwave static because it's something that I want to have happen, not because it has anything to do with her life, even though she’s the one who said it.
Quote: If you knew her, even back when she made the comment, you would think of it as idle chatter or the communication equivalent of airwave static.
Yeah, I can reframe this and see it as an idle comment... but a provocative one. Kind of like if she said, "Go ahead and divorce me-- I can always support myself as a hooker," but that wouldn't in any way indicate that she has any interest in sex.
BTW, I've been meaning to ask... what does "Olive Juice" mean in your signature?
RE : Webermiester The timing was always in favor of the sitcom reruns that she always preferred over ML Your W is a twin to my BB.
so I'd dry hump her butt. I did that a couple of times but it made BB angry and she said to just do it the right way. Trouble is the results were her being passive agressive the next day. So even if you have sex and try to turn it into a ML session, tomorrow may cost you something extra.
And some people wonder why the HD person turns down an opportunity. Is it all her fault, no. Something is usually missing or there is a double standard, or mixed feelings.
Quote: BTW, I've been meaning to ask... what does "Olive Juice" mean in your signature?
Thanks for the question Lillieperl. I figured sooner or later someone would get curious and ask, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding!
If you say "Olive Juice" to someone who is hearing impaired and knows the art of lip reading, it looks just like you are saying, "I love You." Not quite as obvious as "XXXOOO" wouldn't you say?
some really like both varities of feeling sexual and don't want to depend on one form for their only satisfaction method.
