Another weekend in the crucible at JJ's. I think we may be really on the verge of a breakthrough. I've realized that until this weekend's fight, I had really been "pulling my punches" in the attempt to "hold on to myself". I have been continually working at cross-purposes by simulataneously trying to be honest about how I find the relationship to be unsatisfactory and trying to maintain a sense of security.
I feel like I was finally completely honest with my H this weekend in the course of our fight. Though I must admit this was partly due to the fact that I had had a couple drinks at the beach previously and he said a couple things that finally pushed the button that allowed me to let it all hang-out. I said some not so nice things but I also said some things that were honest and nice, so it wasn't just an angry diatribe. It was a rather long fight/discussion but here are some of the "highlights".
1) I "forced" my H to reveal what the hell he had been so resentful towards me about over the years besides my weight. He said that when we married he felt like he was "marrying up". He felt like he was never going to be very successful but I was so smart I would be able to carry us to a place where we could be comfortable. He resented the fact that because he was the man he ended up having to be the primary wage earner for a number of years because he felt like this was a task he wasn't really suited for. I told him that clearly he came into our marriage with low self-esteem and the erroneous expectation that he could somehow "borrow" self-esteem from me. I reminded him that during the time period when I actually was professionally successful he freaked out because I wasn't giving him as much attention as usual and had an emotional affair.
2) He said that sex isn't the problem. He said we can have sex all the time if he wanted to, but he doesn't want to have sex with me because he doesn't like me. I told him that if the reason he doesn't want to have sex with me and more importantly the reason why he is often such a jerk is that he just doesn't like me then I don't want to be married to him because I would have to be utterly lacking in self-respect to want to stay married to him. When I questioned him about why he didn't "like me", he indicated that I "annoyed" him and, once more, I didn't do things to build his ego strength. He actually said that it was "my job" as his wife to build his ego strength. At this point in the convo, I said "Well, clearly I'm not giving you what you need in this relationship, but that doesn't mean that I don't have anything to give in a relationship. There are men out there who actually derive ego strength from f*cking so I guess I would be better off if I was married to one of them.". My H said "See you're telling me I'm not like other men. How is that supposed to make me feel?". I said "No. There are a lot of men who are like you too." and let it drop. It wasn't really clear to me at the moment but in retrospect I realize that I finally was expressing my true feelings on the matter which are that I have little respect for men who behave in a LD manner and little desire to be married to a man who exhibits low drive behavior, especially if that includes disrespectful behavior in an attempt to cut a HDW down to size.
My H left to take a shower. When he came back to the bedroom, he started getting dressed and said he was going out to a bar. I didn't react to this information since I was lying on the bed planning my future with a nice cuddly lumberjack-type who derives ego strength from f*cking my brains out. He then went into a "routine" and said "Yeah, I'm going to the bar and I'm going to pick up a little floozy.". He then started tallying up the cash in his wallet out loud and said "$46. I wonder if that's enough to buy a crack whore around here?". Since we live in a rural county in which you can't even buy a copy of the New York Times, I didn't take his crack whore quest too seriously. Then he sighed and said "I can't go to the bar because I don't like bars because they are too smokey.". I replied "Then I guess you'll have to go right to the crack whore's house.". He said "Her house would probably be smokey too. I would have to ask her to just stick her *ss out the screen door.". I replied "I don't know if you're going to get that kind of service for $46.". (HERE COMES THE MIND-BOGGLING EVENT)He rummaged around a bit and then he walked up to the bed and said "It's not fair. I can't win a fight when you're lying there looking so delicious" and he cupped my breast. Hot action followed. When my H was appreciative afterwards I couldn't help saying "Yeah, and I'm cheaper than the crack whore too.". We hung out in friendly mode for a while and he woke me up in the middle of the night to go for a second round. On Sunday he was very nice all day and he even cleaned the bathroom!!
Well, what do you guys think? Is it possible that I've actually managed to convert him?
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Quote: Is it possible that I've actually managed to convert him?
Sorry, JJ, but my take on this is that it is the usual "temporary correction." However, the bit on "marrying up" and the resentment about having to be the breadwinner, and the low self esteem (ego-borrowing) are pretty substantial. I think you ought to focus on this, rather than the sex. (Did I just say that?)
JJ... You both have shown a lot of openness and honesty in this latest round, and you're getting him to reveal some deep, core issues. You have visited these areas before ( the low self esteem, the lack of respect, etc) but each time you go there and he shows you more insight and less defensiveness, you make progress. This was one of those times.
I wish I could say that you have the one magical convo that turns things around for good, but in my experience, it seems that these are long standing, deeply ingrained areas that need continual work. I do believe that the turn around time from incident to intimacy becomes quicker.
I think that, rather than focus on the pretty heavy stuff he admitted, he went right back to the easy stuff--ML and get right back in the cycle that he hates, but is familiar with.
Was the ego building stuff just MrW being MrW or is there something you can work with there? Does he like WOA?
Quote: However, the bit on "marrying up" and the resentment about having to be the breadwinner, and the low self esteem (ego-borrowing) are pretty substantial. I think you ought to focus on this, rather than the sex. (Did I just say that?)
LOL- I agree but I think that I can't really focus on the basis for his resentment but only the ways in which the resentment manifests itself in our relationship and affects me directly. All I can do is continue to build and maintain my own boundaries regarding sex and rude behavior.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Quote: You both have shown a lot of openness and honesty in this latest round, and you're getting him to reveal some deep, core issues.
It's interesting to me that on some level I always "knew" what he resented in our relationship (my weight and my expectation that he earn a living out there in the cruel world) but I didn't want to "believe" that he resented these things because I would lose respect for him if I did. I've found that now that I am coming to "believe" that these really were his, IMO, lame *ss issues, I have lost some respect for him but I'm still capable of loving him.
Quote: Good job of HOY while he was crucibling.
Perhaps I should write Schnarch a note about the usefulness of a couple 7&7s when dealing with a spouse in the crucible. I found that the alcohol gave me a rather helpful "que sera sera" attitude.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
JJ......LOL I can't believe that I am going to defend a LD person just a little. The issue of weight may seem lame to you. But to him it may just be that is a major to him. That he just has this preference of thinner women. It is almost scary because our husbands are similar. I use to think the weight thing was a lame excuse. But before I thought it was lame it hurt a heck of a lot. However my husband happens to be overweight himself. Mainly it is in his stomach that is pretty large. His muscles aren't very built. However back then I just loved him and didn't really care. I'm a little embarassed to admit but now that I have lost weight and am the same size as when he met me...Well, I am finding myself resentful of his weight. I resent him that he used this as an excuse and then I lost the weight and there is no change. I am resentful that he doesn't care about his appearance to want to be sexy for me. I find myself not as attracted to him either. But that could be mainly do to his LD atitude and no sex appeal.
As far as the job thing he may just find himself feeling not as successful as you. For some men that really bothers them.
LOL it ia funny though I think my hubby is resentful also. I had been a SAHM for 10 years of our marriage. The last 2 years of our marriage he kept harping about me working and built up a strong resentment to me not working. Now let me mention not much work experience at all. I am working now and 2 months into the work force and I am making just as much as him. This week I made more. Maybe it was wrong but I threw this in his face during a fight. His lame thing was well when my overtime kicks in you won't be making as much as me. Not a response like yeah and I am proud of you. It really is like he is resentful now that I am working. But also I expect him to pitch in 50-50 in household things. That has been a real struggle.
Sounds like yur husband does not see himself as being a real man in many different ways. He lacks confidence. He is not comfortable with his sexuality, with his self esteem, with being the breadwinner, he is just uncomfortable with being the man he thinks he should be.
Quote: Was the ego building stuff just MrW being MrW or is there something you can work with there? Does he like WOA?
I wish I could believe that I was a real "ball-buster" and by easing off or upping the WOA I could improve the situation. However, I really don't think that is the problem. I think the real problem is that I am generally too much of a "ball-coddler" due to my tendency towards conflict avoidance. For instance, I've never complained to my H that he needed to get a better job and I have supported him and not complained when he has quit jobs that he didn't like. I don't nag him about mowing the lawn or fixing things around the house even though he nags me about various household chores quite frequently. I frequently do things like serve him his food in front of the TV or fetch him a beer etc.. Actually, I think the thing I said that struck him most forcefully during our fight was "Maybe you are just too high maintenance for me.".
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Quote: He said that sex isn't the problem. He said we can have sex all the time if he wanted to, but he doesn't want to have sex with me because he doesn't like me.
JJ.......My husband said the same thing to me this weekend. But also added that he just doesn't want to have sex with me. That he doesn't like me. That his drive is fine. It's just me.
In the last year I have been very open and verbal about his sex drive bothering me. I think he is at a point where he is fed up. I am at a point where I would consider divorce in a heartbeat to go and find an awesome HD male.
I told my husband I still consider his behavior weird with being male. Oh I don't want to have sex with you. I told him women are the ones who seem to hold onto resentments and withhold sex. Then he got REALLY mad because he thinks this one girl I work with is pretty. She has become a friend to me and I confided in her about my situation. She is my husband's age and her response was ewwwwwwwwwww that is gross and weird. You are a very pretty girl. I never knew a guy could be that way. The reason I brought this up to my husband is because he seems to act like I am the only one who could think his behavior was weird. So he got mad and called me the C word when I brought up the fact I confided in her and what her response was. He has never called me this and knows this is a big no no with me. I did slap him. He has still yet to appologize. We were seperated but then he came back to help out with the kid's while I worked. Now I wish I would have never of even allowed him to come back.
I said some not so nice things but I also said some things that were honest and nice, so it wasn't just an angry diatribe. It was a rather long fight/discussion but here are some of the "highlights".