Learning to Trust Myself

[heatherg]

He seems to care more about how my parents feel about him than about how *I* feel about him....go figure.

I have a couple of major questions for him. Like, what is the real issue here? Is it that he truly is concerned what my parents think of him, i.e. that it hurts him to not have their acceptance? In which case, doesn't he realize that *not* staying with them is only going to make matters worse?
Or is he mostly just concerned with the idea that they are going to try to talk me into doing whatever makes me happy, even if that means divorce?
And further, if he's so concerned about divorce, why is that? Is it because he really loves me and wants to make this work or is it because he doesn't want to be separated from his children? I don't want to be separated from my children either, but if he honestly cannot say that he still loves me....I don't know that staying together is the best thing. Someday my children are going to have lives of their own and I want to be in a position to actively be a part of their lives and them a part of mine. I want to be in a healthy, thriving relationship, not still battling this crap out at age 50 whereby I am still not at a place in my life to be able to offer them sound behavior models and advice.
I guess I have some questions to ask huh?

[Burgbud]

Or is he mostly just concerned with the idea that they are going to try to talk me into doing whatever makes me happy, even if that means divorce?

Based on what's gone on so far and on my own experience, I would guess this is the case, though he certainly wants your parents acceptance as well. But I was always very anxious when W was around someone who I thought would encourage her to leave me. A lot of times this focused on her email buddies, because I felt like anybody who actually met me or was around me would see both sides of our issues. Even so, I never really made the connection that if I wanted these people to be on the side of us staying together, I needed to give them reasons to do so.

As for the rest of your post, if you'll permit me a bit of jargon, I believe you've succinctly defined the problem domain. That's the best way to start tackling the problem!

[NYsurvivor]

We can't try to control exposure to outside influences in an attempt to fix our R. He asked why staying in a cottage would be so bad.

Excuse me, but didn't you just touch upon the issue only to have H deflect that back to his superficial "cottage" argument again? That's the tangent topic changing stuff to be on the watch for.

I said it would be bad because I don't want to stay in a cottage. He said well I don't want to stay with your parents.

Heather, you DO see, don't you, that whenever you state what YOU want, H's reply is typically, "Oh how convenient for you... What about what I want?", when is it ever about what Heather wants?

He said well I don't want to stay with your parents. I said, ok well don't. He said, so you just want me to rent a cottage for me and the kids?

My response would've been: "I didn't say that. If you want to rent a cottage for yourself, go ahead, it's your choice. me and the kids are staying with my folks."

H's putting words in your mouth. I guess that's something else to not permit in your discussions.

So, I need to find some way to reassure him. His main concerns are me going out and that my family is going to influence me to divorce him.

I don't think there's anything to reassure him about. Go and live your life the way it's best for you, and if you're being faithful and loving, then that's it... you're never going to be able to fully reassure an insecure person, and that's what your H is.

His real concern is not that the family is going to influence a divorce. His real concern is that he'll lose you. There are a thousand ways he could lose you. You might watch a movie on Lifetime TV, you might read an article in a magazine, a neighbor may influence you, the new blouse you bought might get another man's wink, there might be someone in your karate class, and on and on, Heather. It's impossible and impractical to have to issue a reassurance on every such thing.

This is really about his insecurities and fears. That's why he's so controlling, so as to avert the possible outcome of losing you. But it's by grasping so hard and clinging to the person he loves that he's choking the love out of you.

He made the comments that he thinks I cannot wait to go out

He's not a mind reader and shouldn't assume to what degree you're chomping at the bit to go out. certainly you're looking forward to being out and being with friends and family, that's to be expected and normal, isn't it?

So, what is H really saying here?

and I should have the consideration to offer to not put myself in a situation where something could happen, considering that the heart of the problem (meaning the A I guess) was putting myself in a situation where such things could occur in the first place, i.e. a bar.

So perhaps what he's really saying is "I believe you have a strong desire to get into an environement, situation, i.e. go out to the bar, where you can cheat on me, and I don't feel otherwise because you haven't met my expectation to offer not to go out."

You can't avoid going to bars forever just because of what happened once in the past. What's H's "solution" to that? Does he have a solution that does NOT involve you being chained and following his every order? And if he doesn't, then the onus is on him to follow your lead or do the work himself, because you CANNOT continue in a relationship that is so dictorial and dismissive and controlling of you. I mean, you can... but are you EVER going to be happy like this? Perhaps it's time to inform H of what the possible consequences are if he doesn't change.

I said "H, that was not the heart of the problem". He said "OH, it wasn't?"

Uh oh. I get the feeling he's going to counter.

[heatherg]

Yes, I do see that when our wants differ, he will essentially turn the situation into a "why are your wants more important that my wants" type of thing. And, of course they're not, so I'm left with no options when you look at it like that, except to "be selfish" or "unselfish". I HATE that!!

My response would've been: "I didn't say that. If you want to rent a cottage for yourself, go ahead, it's your choice. me and the kids are staying with my folks.".....H's putting words in your mouth.

I can see why you would think he was putting words in my mouth. But that's not what he was doing. He was expressing in no uncertain terms that where he goes, the kids go. That's what that statement was about. And, that's why I answered like I did. Because if I say something as direct as the way you would have answered, there will be a war. One that I will not win, I can promise you that. I can be very firm about what *I* will do, but I have to tread very lightly about making statements about what the kids *will* do and what they *won't* do b/c, well you know why. The only way in this situation is to be entirely 100% "fair" where there is no room for argument. I can only hope that he will not want to spend even half the week away from the kids and so, while he recognizes the offer made by me is entirely fair, he will choose not to do it. That is my hope.

I don't think there's anything to reassure him about.

THANK YOU!! This is the part where I start to feel like I'm incompetent b/c he's called me on this issue twice, I think I have an understanding of what his issues are and still I'm on this BB asking you all what you think I should say to him b/c I'm still completely at a loss as far as how I'm supposed to reassure him. I want to. But it just can't come from me, there's nothing I can do as far as I can see.

...if you're being faithful and loving...

I need to work on the 'loving' part as I mentioned above. One crisis at a time. Loving will be for next week, lol

His real concern is that he'll lose you.

How do you know? His real concern as far as I can tell is that he'll lose his kids.

He's not a mind reader and shouldn't assume to what degree you're chomping at the bit to go out.

I know, right? To my knowledge at this point, I'm not even going out. I've known all along my sister wouldn't be there and the only other person I would go out with is a close friend....we'll see, I don't even know if she's available for crying out loud. So, do I sound like I'm chomping at the bit??!!

Perhaps it's time to inform H of what the possible consequences are if he doesn't change.

For the first time, I think he might know. He hasn't been this "pursuey" since the first week after I told him about the A. Hey, didja like that word?? I wonder if Michele might like to borrow it....

I feel like this is my first opportunity to really stick to my guns. In the past I've felt like my only leverage was leaving him. Now I'm starting to see that I do have some other options. I don't want to go overboard, but considering I see this as my first opportunity I don't think I have to worry about going overboard yet.

[NYsurvivor]

I can see why you would think he was putting words in my mouth. But that's not what he was doing.

I'll tell you why I think he was:

You had said to him : "I don't want to stay in a cottage."
He said, "Well I don't want to stay with your parents.
You then rightly said, "Ok well don't. "

But then H's reply "So you just want me to rent a cottage for me and the kids?" is not what you said at all, nor does it speak to what you want, though he has crafted it to attribute his twist as what he says he's hearing from you as your "want". Moreover, whereas the last reference was about him staying at a cottage, now he includes the children as part of his camp, as part of his "understanding" of what you want. That's all putting words in your mouth. This is the sort of stuff a shrewd attorney does in cross-examination to try to get someone to concede a point in that attorney's favor. The opposing attorney would immediately object, pointing out that the witness is being led... just as I think you were being led.

He was expressing in no uncertain terms that where he goes, the kids go... that's why I answered like I did. Because if I say something as direct as the way you would have answered, there will be a war... I can be very firm about what *I* will do, but I have to tread very lightly about making statements about what the kids *will* do

That's unfortunate. H can speak definitively about what the kids will do and you're not permitted the same privilege, hmm? And you look to avoid the certain battle that will come by not forcing the issue and demanding that H be equal in the right to decide the kids will or won't do because of the given ensuing battle if you do so.

The only time you don't have any battle is when H gets his way.

I can understand then why your solution was to compromise and have the children spend equal time with both parents. Yet the issue of both parents having the same equality in deciding what the kids will do goes begging. Perhaps that's a conversation for a time when such a matter is not at hand... although it's always a war because he's a controlling person and tries to exert control over the children as well, right?

His real concern is that he'll lose you.
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How do you know? His real concern as far as I can tell is that he'll lose his kids.

OK. Either way, let's assume that his real concern is not that the family is going to influence a divorce, but that it really has to do with fear of loss. As an aside, if it is a fear of losing the children, in the event of divorce, custody could still be fought for, and for the non-custodial parent there's always visitation which can be as liberal and wide as you want to make it, so I tend to think it's really about losing you!

I do see that when our wants differ, he will essentially turn the situation into a "why are your wants more important that my wants" type of thing. And, of course they're not, so I'm left with no options when you look at it like that, except to "be selfish" or "unselfish". I HATE that!!

"And, of course they're not"... well, some are, some aren't, and some are equal. And if you're browbeaten into submitting or compromising to his will all or most of the time, and that your wants/needs are never as important as his, you're going to feel, if you don't already, then you're giving up lots of little pieces of yourself, being the person who agrees to something you don't really agree to, while the other partner (H) gets what he wants.

This pattern sounds extremely selfish on H's part... I can't see how it depicts selfishness on your part. Of course, painting it that way when you do assert yourself is part of his control, isn't it?

I'm telling ya Heather, your H is a MAJOR controller. I've already written that I know it, you know it, every one here knows it, but now... my WAW knows it, civilizations lost in far remote reaches of the most isolated jungles in foreign continents know it, and probably somewhere in the outer galaxies googiglians of light years away on some distant planet there are alien beings who roll their sixteen eyes when they hear yet another story about "Heather's Husband".

while he recognizes the offer made by me is entirely fair, he will choose not to do it.

Is it just me, or doesn't that statement ring odd?

[heatherg]

I'm telling ya Heather, your H is a MAJOR controller. I've already written that I know it, you know it, every one here knows it, but now... my WAW knows it, civilizations lost in far remote reaches of the most isolated jungles in foreign continents know it, and probably somewhere in the outer galaxies googiglians of light years away on some distant planet there are alien beings who roll their sixteen eyes when they hear yet another story about "Heather's Husband".

OMG, that is the funniest thing I've heard all week. You give great advice and you make me laugh....what more could a fellow DBer ask for??!

while he recognizes the offer made by me is entirely fair, he will choose not to do it. //////////

Is it just me, or doesn't that statement ring odd?

It rings odd presumably b/c you're not an extreme person. You see, my H once said to me even if I gave him 90% custody, I'd still be taking his kids away from him 10% of the time. You have to remember that H will not leave the kids to go to a movie or dinner with me. We are talking about a person who is as extreme as anyone I've ever met or even heard of. So, going back to knowing my arrangement to split the week in half with the kids was fair by all practical applications of the word, it is in the middle~not one extreme or the other and therfore out of the realm of anything he would agree to although I do think he recognizes it as a deal that the rest of society would view as fair.

As an aside, if it is a fear of losing the children, in the event of divorce, custody could still be fought for, and for the non-custodial parent there's always visitation which can be as liberal and wide as you want to make it, so I tend to think it's really about losing you!

Reread my above statement and you will understand why I believe it's about the kids more than it is about me. To you, that might be a technicality and you might be thinking whatever Heather, he's afraid of loss, whatever that loss may be, that's the reason for his insecurity. I'm not trying to be thick, I get it. But the loss he's afraid of matters to me. I want to matter, not just be the partying gift that came with my kids. Partying gift, the only people that say that are game show hosts and Blues Travelers. And Heather.

This is the sort of stuff a shrewd attorney does in cross-examination to try to get someone to concede a point in that attorney's favor. The opposing attorney would immediately object, pointing out that the witness is being led... just as I think you were being led.

And by allowing him to lead me, did I let him know he was in control? Even if I did, he *is* in control where the kids are concerned. You know it. He'll say, "Let's let *them* decide where they want to stay" and he'll have a cottage on the lake or something. Where do you think the kids would choose to stay??? He!!, he could have a cottage next to a sewage sanitation plant and the kids would still likely choose to stay with him. A smart player knows not to set themself up to lose right? It sucks.

So, H is going to bring the topic up again tonight when he gets home. Should I just say "I will listen to what you have to say, but I've already stated how I feel on the issue. I'm staying with my parents and we'd all like it if you would too. Other than that, I don't have anything else to say, but I will gladly listen".

[NYsurvivor]

Is it just me, or doesn't that statement ring odd?
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It rings odd presumably b/c you're not an extreme person. You see, my H once said to me even if I gave him 90% custody, I'd still be taking his kids away from him 10% of the time. You have to remember that H will not leave the kids to go to a movie or dinner with me. We are talking about a person who is as extreme as anyone I've ever met or even heard of. So, going back to knowing my arrangement to split the week in half with the kids was fair by all practical applications of the word, it is in the middle~not one extreme or the other and therfore out of the realm of anything he would agree to although I do think he recognizes it as a deal that the rest of society would view as fair.

Uh... is that a "yes"?

my H once said to me even if I gave him 90% custody, I'd still be taking his kids away from him 10% of the time.

Of course. He only sees how things impact on him, not on others. They cover that between the front and back covers of the emotionally abusive relationship book. from what I've read, it's quite a full description of that personality type, the only thing missing in the book is a picture of your husband. Sorry, couldn't help myself... hee hee.

He'll say, "Let's let *them* decide where they want to stay" and he'll have a cottage on the lake or something. Where do you think the kids would choose to stay???

Heather hun, since when do we let the children be the parents and make the decisions?

So, H is going to bring the topic up again tonight when he gets home. Should I just say "I will listen to what you have to say, but I've already stated how I feel on the issue. I'm staying with my parents and we'd all like it if you would too. Other than that, I don't have anything else to say, but I will gladly listen".

My gut feeling? It won't matter what you say, he's going to dance around anything you say unless it's in total agreement with him. I think it's entirely appropriate that you wish to spend that time with your folks and your children with them. If doing things as a family is important to hubby, then he ought to appreciate the importance of, and support, your doing things with your family, which includes your folks, your sis and your kids.

I'd say agree with the cottage idea, but I'm afraid he'll go the next step, which may be that once you're there, he starts preventing you from being with your family. So, how about a split down the middle where half the visit is with the folks, staying with them, revolving around activities with them, and then the other half involves the cottage, and when you do the cottage portion, that segment will mainly feature activities as a family. You agree to the cottage if he agrees to the family stay. I'd LOVE to hear hubby's response to that proposition.

[Burgbud]

Reread my above statement and you will understand why I believe it's about the kids more than it is about me. To you, that might be a technicality and you might be thinking whatever Heather, he's afraid of loss, whatever that loss may be, that's the reason for his insecurity. I'm not trying to be thick, I get it. But the loss he's afraid of matters to me.

Do you really think he doesn't love or like you but he's willing to live with you for, what, 16 more years just so he can be with his kids all the time?

If he's as insecure as he comes across, however, he doesn't think he's good enough to keep you. So he controls you as much as possible, hoping you won't come across a better deal, won't get any big ideas. He sees that the kids are the best way to control you and he's really good with them, so he pushes that angle. And he marginalizes you so maybe you'll be thinking you don't deserve any better. You scare him to death. Maybe so much that he's detached himself from you because he can't deal with the fear of losing you and his insecurities tell him that's inevitable. I'm not saying any of this is conscious. I'm saying this is how insecure people who are in denial about it deal with their insecurity. You may be the only thing in his life he's insecure about, but that doesn't change things.

Sadly, he has to resolve this issue for himself. It will be difficult for you to help him, especially since you're the/an object of his insecurity. That's why he needs so much reassurance. That's why he doesn't accept your apologies. He doesn't think you're sorry because he figures that other guy is better than him, plus he can try to control you with your guilt. He has to punish you into never doing that again because next time you'll definitely figure out that the grass is greener and you'll be gone. That's why he has to have you do everything his way; any rejection of what he wants to do gets taken personally and turned into a rejection of him. He's worried you're starting to figure him out, and all he's got to keep you are the kids.

I hope I'm wrong and he can come out of this mindset on his own. But without therapy or some sort of serious jolt to his world, chances are probably slim.

[heatherg]

Do you really think he doesn't love or like you but he's willing to live with you for, what, 16 more years just so he can be with his kids all the time?

Uh, yes. That's the short answsr since NY indicated yesterday perhaps I should work on being a little more concise with my answers

Ok guys, I'm discouraged. H came home last night, I wasn't happy to see him, started getting those familiar feelings of wanting to create distance. I went to bed as soon as we got home from the baseball game. I don't want him to come home. But I'm comfortable with knowing we're friendly and I haven't had to give up my kids any and I have the comfort of knowing he's there if I need him, like if the lights break or something. Can't have it both ways though can I?
I don't know what to do.

Ok, so you don't have much hope that H will change. What about me? You've read a great deal of my interactions with my H. Kim mentioned some insecurities that shine through here. Tell me what she means. I can keep working on myself and maybe that will help take the frustration away.

[Burgbud]

Uh, yes. That's the short answsr since NY indicated yesterday perhaps I should work on being a little more concise with my answers.

Then allow me an attempt at brevity also: Well, you're wrong.


Can't have it both ways though can I?

You can't have it both ways forever but you can have it both ways for awhile. You have time to start to sort yourself.


Ok, so you don't have much hope that H will change.

Actually, I think there's a fair amount of hope that H will change (50/50 chance at least). I just think it will take something big to jolt him into it.

If I can change then anybody can change. And people worse than me have changed, too. The real issue is, does he *want* to change? Does he see any need to change? If not, what *would* make him want to change...what might make him take a look at his life and realize he's not living it the way he would like? That his life isn't what he wants it to be?

I mean, he doesn't need to polish up a few loving behaviors, right? It seems more like he needs a new mindset. Before somebody adopts a new mindset they usually have to be convinced that their old mindset isn't working for them.


Kim mentioned some insecurities that shine through here. Tell me what she means.

Kim will have to speak for herself, but the insecurities I see are that you worry you aren't a good enough mom with S4, and that there's something you could be doing differently that would make H act the way you want. But I'll bet if you take a step back from the situation, you realize that you have no reason for insecurity on either count. You just have to work until you thoroughly believe it.


I don't know what to do.

Lucky for you I'm here and it's a slow Saturday, because I know everything, as evidenced by my own life. And I'm in an advice giving mood, though I plead with you to consider the source. Also, I'm thinking you live in VA but if not, some of this advice could well change. Okay, here goes...

Step 1: Do everything you can to make yourself happy. Go to karate, for one thing. If you're happier in general with your life, you might find yourself happier even when H is home and it will be easier to deal with him the way you want to. Maybe that will change the patterns of your relationship and bring him around.

Step 2: If that doesn't work and things don't change, sit him down and tell him you're seriously considering moving out. You love him and you've been working on the M but your emotional needs are not being met (all about you, see? Not much for him to argue with). List a few of your emotional needs that he needs to work on (considering your opinions, showing you affection, helping you connect with your kids, ...). I can imagine he might tell you you're being selfish, what about his needs? Tell him you'll work on whatever needs he's not getting met, but that won't be enough to save the M. And he knows you better than anyone, so he should look in his heart at what he knows about you and determine for himself if you're really too selfish to be married to. Because if you are, then this is his chance.

There would be two keys to making this work: don't do it unless you actually intend to follow through if need be, and do it while you still hope things can work out. VA law says you've gotta be separate for a year before D, so that's long enough for significant changes to be made, but also a long time to wait if you're sure you want to move on with your life.

If H believes you're serious and doesn't decide to work on things within a week, I'll bet it's because he doesn't think when push comes to shove you'll go through with it.

Step 3: Move out. GAL. Make H woo you back. I'll be shocked if he doesn't crumble. Give yourself long enough to be convinced he's become the man you want to live the rest of your life with. Then move back in and have a party!

There. I said it.