Learning to Trust Myself

[heatherg]

NY, as always, thank you so much for the time you dedicate to my situation. I'm very grateful.

I again think that what you guys are battling over is the top of the ice berg, fighting over ice chips,

I agree. Although we haven't gotten to a place where our conversations reflect a true exchange of feelings and thoughts between two mature adults, we are making some progress. First of all, I am simply more AWARE of what's going on. This is really big because I used to forget a lot of things or put them out of my head or whatever. That made it hard to remember who said what and to be able to defend myself against BS arguments or H telling me I said things or that he said things that weren't really said. This has and will continue to greatly enhance my analysis of my R and assist me in trusting my reactions, my thoughts and my feelings.
Secondly, I have not getting that sick feeling in my stomach anymore when he's angry at me which tells me I'm getting better at detaching. I don't have it mastered by any means, but I'm making some progress. Secondly, I'm able to listen more and talk less. This is HUGE and as I get better at it, it will serve many purposes. The first purpose is the more obvious one, that I actually process what he is telling me instead of conjuring a response in head. I've also been able to practice a little silence as I give myself time to decide if what he has said warrants a response from me. The second purpose listening as opposed to speaking serves is that, as you've noticed, my H tends to talk in circles. By not speaking, he can only talk himself in circles, not drag me with him. This is really beneficial, because you suggested that I tell H that we're going to stick to the topic at hand or else the discussion is over. I've tried that and he just turns it back on me saying something like "OH, well how convenient that YOU get to decide what the topic is". He makes it sound like I'm trying to get out of addressing my faults or my shortcomings. So that hasn't worked so well. But silence seems to work, at least the little I've tried it. It's hard to change old patterns, but as I have little by little, I notice that some things are pretty effective.

Seeking to improve from the outside by cutting third party influences that which can only be improved from the inside via the primary partners.

That's a great way to word that. You know, often communicating with someone takes a lot of work to convey what you want to say. I think that's been one of my shortcomings as well. Never gave enough thought to what I wanted to say, spoke without thinking at all, or just said something stupid to hear myself talk I guess. Posting here and hearing other people's interpretations of what I'm saying has helped bring me a great deal of clarity. Not being a scatterbrain about how I feel has been liberating.

If H actually worked on the relationship in a productive manner, others, like family, might see the difference in the repaired relationship and take note of its improvement and not be critical of it. That would be the answer to changing how family sees H.

I know and it makes so much sense. H just can't seem to get past the injustice of it all. It's hard for him to accept that I've done this crappy thing but yet he has to pay the consequences too and help make things better. I understand how he feels and I'm sure many others on this board have felt the same way. But H's version is so much more extreme than the average bear.

His statement also implies that any "higher ground" behavior coming from him is contingent on you first... I'll be good if you're good... and that's not love. Love doesn't hold grudges and critically punish.

That's what my sister keeps telling me, that there is no way H can love me and yet treat me the way he does. But I know he does love me. Ideally, you're both right. But, playing devils advocate, H could say that love doesn't cheat. And who am I to argue? So, I can't go there with my thoughts knim?

It's also disturbing that H dismisses your apologies, argues against them. Why? Is it in order to remain being the hurt partner, and in so doing, create a never ending obligation on your part to make it up to him by doing what he says?

Yes, I believe this is 100% accurate. I've thought about pointing this out during our next R discussion. That he *seems* to be looking for something from me, some words or actions that will trigger a desire to forgive me. That he doesn't seem to feel that that has to come from within and I feel that it does. Like you said, I will probably have to guide him (a case of the legally blind leading the totally blind, lol) and help him understand why he feels the way he does.

And of his own accord, he won't, Heather. Never will. And so your discussion with him ends with him saying, yet again, "I don't believe you're sorry."

How can you be so sure that he never will? I wish I had that level of certainty one way or the other....

Your answer was that trust takes time to rebuild, but didn't answer how.

Ah, yes. Minor exclusion, huh?! Getting better, got a ways to go. If we could stay on one subject long enough to elaborate it would be easier to notice I haven't said everything I needed to say!! And that's not just H's fault, I am also guilty of changing subjects and bringing up old stuff.

I'm very apprehensive about the trip to MI to say the least~that is if he will even go or allow the kids to go. BTW, my sister will not be there. She had told me a while back she couldn't make it, but I wanted to hear what H had to say on the subject so I let him think she was coming. The issue needed to be addressed whether or not she was going.

[KimDownUnder]

Heather just to let you know I checked by but I am gonna need more time to read yours and NY's essays will have a read tomorrow when I have more time and will elaborate on my previous post...Chin up.....KDU

[NYsurvivor]

we are making some progress...

From what you wrote about your own personal development, it sounds as if you're making great strides for yourself.

he just turns it back on me saying something like "OH, well how convenient that YOU get to decide what the topic is". He makes it sound like I'm trying to get out of addressing my faults or my shortcomings.

Recognize that as a control tactic.

H gets to decide what the topic is, is that what he's saying? H did decide what the topic was, but then goes on tangents. All you're looking to do is stay on the topic H brought up instead of jumping from one thing to the other, and while on topic, willing to discuss it more fully, shortcomings and all.

There are "rules" to have effective discussions. Very typically, when people have arguments/discussions, they do stuff that makes it ineffective: going off on tangents and other topics, bringing up grudges, blaming, ultimatums, raising voices, making threats, sarcasm, facial gestures (i.e., rolling eyes, look of disgust), insults, etc.

That's why I suggested keeping on topic. Also, since people argue about superficial matters that lay over the real issues, it's good to analyze what the real premise is so as to get to the heart of the matter. For example, "we should stay in the cottage because we're a family" isn't the real issue, as you know. So to further discuss why a family would stay in a cottage isn't going to resolve anything, as what really needs to be addressed is the underlying issue "H doesn't 'like your family', that's his reaction because he feels there 'on you're side', and that impression irks him because..."

He wants to discuss your shortcomings, but when you listed a bunch of his, he dismissed it, but that's to be expected. People tend to minimize what they do themselves and magnify what others do, and it's common for people to think that the fault lies outside of themselves. Besides, no one likes to chirp about their own shortcomings.

Discussing shortcomings isn't working for you. It's a blame game. How about instead of discussing shortcomings, discuss strengths instead? Create a positive conversation about what you like, love, admire about one another.

H could say that love doesn't cheat. And who am I to argue?

People make mistakes. Forgiveness is part of loving. You made a mistake, but you also turned it around and acknowledged it and are remorseful and actively seeking to repair the damage and, in fact, create something better than before is your interest. H makes mistakes, doesn't acknowledge them but repeats them continuously.

How can you be so sure that he never will?

You're right. I shouldn't have wrote "never". "Never" is a global term.

I guess what I meant was that the pattern will continue ad infinitum. I get the sense that if H were to accept your apology and act in accord with that acceptance, he'd lose some "power" over you, having this over you, and given my deep impression that he's a total control freak, I felt it's not likely he'll do that.

So to change that repeated outcome, a different strategy is needed. That's why I suggested the positive "what I love about you" convo instead.

I've thought about pointing this out during our next R discussion. That he *seems* to be looking for something from me, some words or actions that will trigger a desire to forgive me.

Everytime you've written what you're going to say to H, I always say to myself, "oh, oh. He's going to counter." He'll probably look to put the onus on you, and reply with something along the lines of "I shouldn't have to look. If you were truly sorry, it would show. Instead, you argue with me about..."

Knock, knock.
Who's there?
Control Freak. Now YOU say "Control Freak who?"



NY, as always, thank you so much for the time you dedicate to my situation.

Oh, Heather... I receive so I give back. Your sitch hits a spot in me, I feel for you.

[heatherg]

Has he ever said what he thinks an appropriate consequence might be? Hopefully it's not saying you're sorry until he thinks you've said it enough because S4 may have a beard by then.

No, he's never said. And if I ask what he needs from me he will say he doesn't know, just that he has definitely not gotten it yet. I don't say "I'm sorry" very often. I don't want it to lost it's meaning. I've said I'm sorry.....maybe I need some help on this. How many times do you have to say it? Do you just bring it up out of the blue and risk ruining a relatively good evening by dredging up these memories?
S4 with a beard, holy cow, now there's something to envision, lol.

But he wants everyone to think of him first and nobody's going to. Sucks for him. Not just for this trip but because his life is going to get more and more miserable until he figures out how to be happy letting other people do what they want sometimes.

I think this is a good observation. And when you throw into the mix that I haven't been very receptive to his tactics, I haven't given him much in the way of validation or consideration. I need to work on that. I find it really difficult to be loving and show love to someone that I don't feeling loving toward. But perhaps you have to fake it til you make it as has been suggested by others. What do you think?

So I think you can look at his affection this weekend more as a compromise than as trickery. He wants something from you so he tried to give you something in return. It's up to you whether the compromise is acceptable or not.

Yeah, I see what you are saying. In effect, I guess I've decided that compromise is not acceptable to me. Exchanges are expected in life and I think that's pretty normal. I've often heard the term "currencies" and I see where it has a very important place in life and in relationships. But to me, the trades need to be relatively similar in nature if you're going to "expect" anything in return. For instance, if you give back massages willingly, someday when you're back is sore and you ask for one from your partner, you should be within reason to expect she will give you one. If however, you give back massages and then someday expect a new motorcycle, well that's a different story. In the same way, H displaying affection toward me and creating a welcome environment for me in his apt does not warrant an exchange whereby I am expected to alter my interactions with my family. Not "like" exchanges. Am I whacked or does that make sense??

Now, if he says, "I'm not going and S4 is staying here with me" that would be obviously be an unacceptable form of manipulation.

See, to me, that would be outright control. Manipulation is creating or modifying circumstances surrounding a situation so as to create the outcome you want and can be used in a positive way such as in DBing. It's positive in these circumstances because we are giving in the hopes of receiving, we are hoping to change the dynamics in our lives by first changing ourselves. So it is manipulation to the extent that we are modifying some of the circumstances, i.e. our behaviors and reactions in order to create the outcome we want. But we don't take away the choices of the other person to respond to our changes or to make their own decisions. Depending on the extent of the "modifying" and "creating" that is involved, manipulation starts to swing the pendulum toward control. And when someone makes a statement similar to "this is the way things will be", well that is on the far right extreme of outright control because you greatly limit the other person's decision making capability and the latitude they have to give a response or reaction. Whoa, ok, did all that just come from me?????

[Burgbud]

How many times do you have to say it?

I'd guess you could be pretty liberal in saying it as long as it had an effect. But to borrow your concept, he seems to be using his hurt feelings as currency and he's set an awfully high, perhaps unpayable, price on them. My opinion is you've been more than sorry enough, at least until he's willing to actually hear you. Eventually those words *will* lose their meaning, even to you.


Do you just bring it up out of the blue and risk ruining a relatively good evening by dredging up these memories?

Nope. Why ruin a relatively good evening for nothing?


...Am I whacked or does that make sense??

That all made perfect sense; I wasn't meaning to imply you should consider that an acceptable compromise, just that it wasn't necessarily an evil manipulation on his behalf. I think you're reacting to the real problem, which is that affection and demonstrations of care can't be currency in a loving relationship for anything other than returned displays of affection and care. And at some point a transaction based relationship is going to inevitably lead to score keeping and that's absolutely a losing game, since no two people keep score the same (among other reasons). Your M has many of the same symptoms mine did, Heather. One important difference is you might have the opportunity to jolt H into self-examination and change before you feel totally hopeless and dead to him. But it may well take extraordinary measures on your part, and even then he may not budge.


I find it really difficult to be loving and show love to someone that I don't feeling loving toward.

Yep, that's a tough one. Even if you try to fake it 'til you make it, a person can only do that so much without reciprocation before the process starts killing whatever real loving feelings may actually be there. But you do feel loving toward him sometimes; try to make the most of that. And fully realize that this is one of those areas you don't control. Your best efforts, real or fake, may fail to take root in him. And if that's what happens, it's not because you weren't good enough, it's because he wasn't capable of being part of a loving relationship. You've been extraordinarily dedicated to fixing your damaged relationship and you should feel great about that. Nothing he does can take that away from you.


Whoa, ok, did all that just come from me?????

You're more than you know! No surprise to anybody reading this (except possibly you?).

[heatherg]

Kim, no problem I know I've got a pretty deep discussion going here and from what I read on your thread you've got some of your own excitement (good excitement) to keep you busy right now. Hope to see you when things settle a bit for you.

H gets to decide what the topic is, is that what he's saying? H did decide what the topic was, but then goes on tangents. All you're looking to do is stay on the topic H brought up instead of jumping from one thing to the other

I think part of my problem is my timing in implementation so to speak. What I mean by that is I didn't used to be as aware as I am becoming now of the patterns in our conversations. So, it would take me a while to realize that we were going in circles and it wasn't until we were well into an argument, where I had probably been bringing up old stuff myself, where I would feel frustrated at the lack of direction in the discussion and would say something like "this is not what the discussion was supposed to be about" or something like that. So, in H's defense, I didn't implement very well the first few times. I will get better at keeping to the topic from the very beginning from now on.

Very typically, when people have arguments/discussions, they do stuff that makes it ineffective: going off on tangents and other topics, bringing up grudges, blaming, ultimatums, raising voices, making threats, sarcasm, facial gestures (i.e., rolling eyes, look of disgust), insults, etc.

I'm guilty of all of these myself. You're right effective communication has to have rules and it takes a while to learn those rules much less implement them!! I'm still learning, but also starting to implement better. Still a beginner by all means.

Create a positive conversation about what you like, love, admire about one another.

I will have a whole separate post on this issue. I want to do this, but struggle very much with it b/c I don't feel very loving toward H. I need to do something to get out of that rut and start generating some good vibes here!!

Everytime you've written what you're going to say to H, I always say to myself, "oh, oh. He's going to counter."

In the past, I've let feelings like that actually discourage me from even saying anything at all. For some reason, these days, I'm feeling slightly more optimistic. He'll probably still counter. But by employing my new conversation "rules" I should be able to handle it more constructively and calmly.

I'd guess you could be pretty liberal in saying it as long as it had an effect.

Well then I probably need some help thinking of ways to say it because I would not use liberal to describe the number of times I've said in the last several months especially. We don't have deep discussions very often and like I said and you agreed, it's hard to bring it up when everything is fine and you risk ruining the evening. Any ideas on this? Is there something that would say "I'm sorry" to you besides the actual words? Something that I could do without necessarily addressing the entire A?

But you do feel loving toward him sometimes; try to make the most of that.

That's a good idea. Maybe I need to think more of creative ways to show love so that when I'm feeling loving I'm better able to express it. Any ideas??

My opinion is you've been more than sorry enough, at least until he's willing to actually hear you.

I was thinking about this today. You guys get to see this inner struggle I'm going through and I see yours as well. Our partners don't see this. And, in learning, there is a great deal of thought and introspection that takes place before an outside change is necessarily seen. So, from my H's perspective, maybe he doesn't have any idea how much thought I've given to this and how much I'm learning and how much I care or how sorry I am. He may be just beginning to see my changes. I have gone through my biggest changes just in the last few weeks as a deeper understanding has occurred....what can I say, I'm a slow learner Honestly, I think I resisted quite a bit at first as I was hurting for empathy and longing for someone to understand what I was going through. You guys have given me that and it has allowed me to heal some and stop resisting the idea that I really need to change. Half my problem was that for some reason I really *needed* for someone other than my C, who sometimes I feel like I'm paying off, lol to truly understand my situation. Thank you all so much for giving me that, everyone who has ever posted on my thread has contributed to this and I cannot express the difference you've made in my life thus far.

As I was writing this and thinking about the deeper understanding that has transpired in me the last few weeks, something really sad occurred to me. That is really since H has been gone isn't it? I can see things much more clearly and calmly. I don't want to get myself upset over nothing, maybe it's a coincidence. But I really am nervous for him to come home because I've become very comfortable with things as they are.....

[heatherg]

~Update~
H called me yesterday but I had someone in my office so I answered and asked if I could call him back in a few minutes. When I called back he said it was no big deal, he was just wondering if his shirt had come in the mail...I got the feeling that wasn't the real reason he called, but the moment had been ruined and he no longer wanted to discuss what he had originally called for.
Then today he called again. To talk about the trip to MI. I knew right away that was really why he had called yesterday. First of all, this is sort of pursuing behavior as NY suggested. I guess that's a good thing for me right?
So, he starts off by saying the vacation thing is really bothering him. Then he just sits there. I basically tell him that he has the floor, so speak. What specifically is bothering him I ask? He starts talking about my sister and the family and how I just blew him off yesterday. I said I didn't blow you off, I understand where you're coming from and how you feel. But that my family isn't the real issue, the real issue is my behavior and our R. We can't try to control exposure to outside influences in an attempt to fix our R. He asked why staying in a cottage would be so bad. I said it would be bad because I don't want to stay in a cottage. He said well I don't want to stay with your parents. I said, ok well don't. He said, so you just want me to rent a cottage for me and the kids? I said, if you absolutely insist on it then yes I suppose we'll have to divide the week whereby the kids can stay with you half the week and they will stay with me the other half. I totally don't want to do that, but I can't let him manipulate me with the kids......
He tried to express something to the effect of me putting my extended family above him and the kids. I totally did not even entertain that statement, blew right past it. I'm not going there.
I wasn't very effective at keeping the conversation to one topic and contributed to the topic changing...darn. It wasn't as bad as usual though, so that's good. And when I realized I was contributing to it, I made a comment that it's hard to get anything resolved unless we stay on the topic at hand. We only talked for about 20 minutes and nothing much was accomplished except that I did put out there the idea that what he is anxious about has nothing to do with a cottage, some to do with my family, but most to do with me.
So, I need to find some way to reassure him. His main concerns are me going out and that my family is going to influence me to divorce him. He made the comments that he thinks I cannot wait to go out and I should have the consideration to offer to not put myself in a situation where something could happen, considering that the heart of the problem (meaning the A I guess) was putting myself in a situation where such things could occur in the first place, i.e. a bar. I said "H, that was not the heart of the problem". He said "OH, it wasn't?" I said No, the heart of the problem lied between you and I. And then he had to go as his coworkers returned from wherever they were.

So, how to reassure H about our trip to MI? What exactly am I reassuring, I don't even know!! Should I tell him my sister isn't even going? I don't have any plans whatsoever to go out while I'm home. Should I tell him that? What do I do?

[Dmsw4]

I guess I would explain to him that the main reason you're going to MI is to visit your family. You have so little time with them and they have so little time with the kids, that you think it would be best if you all stay with the family. "I know that you feel uncomfortable, but I will do whatever I can to make it as easy as possible for all of us. If I go out, I would love for you to come along. I think the more time we spend with my family, the more they will see that I am truly dedicated to having a life with you." I don't think I would split up the family. What if you did a few days at the cottage before checking into mom's hotel? Maybe give him a little time to adjust.

[heatherg]

Thanks Mel! Using most of your suggestion, I can just reiterate that the kids and I don't get to spend much time with my family and that I really think it's best if we stay there and that I will do whatever I can do make it comfortable for him, not that my parents would make anything *uncomfortable* anyway.

I'm reluctant to say "I think the more time we spend with my family, the more they will see that I am truly dedicated to having a life with you" because I have not made the decision that I am dedicated to having a life with him by any means. I'm dedicated to never betraying my M vows again and I'm dedicated to trying to work things out, but by no means am I dedicated to spending the rest of my life with the person he is today. So, with that being said, maybe I could modify it a bit and say "I think the more time we spend with family and the more they see that we are constructively trying to make things work, they will be more inclined to accept that". What do you think?
I thought about mentioning that he could always talk to my parents as well. When my A came out in the open, I had to suck it up and call his mother and say "I understand if you never want to speak to me again but I would like to talk to you if you can". That was really HARD, but I realized that when I hurt my H, I hurt a lot of other people as well and I needed to clear the air with them as well as H. My family feels the same way~when I am hurting they are hurting and H has done some really hurtful things and they might need to hear him say that he's going to deal with it better in the future, that the worst is behind us and he needs their acceptance again. My parents are very forgiving and do not hold grudges. What do you think about suggesting that?

[Burgbud]

His main concerns are me going out and that my family is going to influence me to divorce him.

He's going about this backwards, isn't he? Does he think your family's attitude toward him is a lost cause? Why doesn't he want to show them how great he is for you and bring them around to liking him? Does he realize that staying in a cottage, with or without you, is only going to make it harder for your family to encourage your M?

Which I guess leads to the question, does he see himself as responsible for any problems in your M and if so, is he working on them? IOW, if you guys ended up staying with your parents, are there any changes in how he treats you that he could show off to them?


I said "H, that was not the heart of the problem". He said "OH, it wasn't?" I said No, the heart of the problem lies between you and I.

Too bad he had to get off the phone right after this. If he can figure out that you're right then you've got a chance. If not, well, then you've really got an uphill battle to fight.


"I think the more time we spend with family and the more they see that we are constructively trying to make things work, they will be more inclined to accept that". What do you think?

Perfect. If he doesn't go for that you can rest assured the problem is with him and not with how you've handled it.

It would obviously be very useful if he would talk to your parents and try to bring them around. But that would entail accepting some kind of fault for the state your M was/is in, and taking some kind of responsibility for making it better. Can he do that?