Learning to Trust Myself

[heatherg]

I can totally see why you would say that, after reading back over what I wrote, it did sound like H put on quite the seduction. But I don't think that's what it was because H knows he doesn't have to seduce me to get sex. We have sex regularly, with me initiating just as often as he does. We don't really have any issues with that.

My fear is that he's noticed it doesn't bother me as much when he ignores me. So, he's trying to step up the affection so I'll notice more and be more willing to cooperate when he pulls it away?

Or maybe I'm paranoid and am mistaking genuine baby steps for manipulation.

[Burgbud]

Or maybe I'm paranoid and am mistaking genuine baby steps for manipulation.

Seems like the perfect place for an application of acting "as if".

Even if he's making genuine baby steps it may take him awhile to figure out the pull away is now a cheeseless tunnel. So if he tries it again you're not necessarily back at square one.

The real question is, when he truly realizes he doesn't have near the control over you that he used to will he accept that and start working his life around it or will he get pissed and try to exert control some other way? Nothing for it right now but to sit back and wait and see. Either way you're better for what you've become.

But the waiting is always the suckiest part, isn't it?

Oh, and I went right by this in an earlier post...H at one point said he'd never kiss you again and he wouldn't ride in your car. You mentioned the lack of kissing a post or two ago, is that still because of his original claim? Does he still say he'll never do it again? Does he still not ride in your car?

[NYsurvivor]

Does he still not ride in your car?

Heather wrote that they have sex regularly, so my guess is he rides something else, if you know what I mean. oh forgive me...

My fear is that he's noticed it doesn't bother me as much when he ignores me. So, he's trying to step up the affection so I'll notice more and be more willing to cooperate when he pulls it away?

Maybe he feels you're having distanced away?? and that turned him into the pursuer. So, don't change! And if he pulls away himself, don't change.

[heatherg]

Maybe he feels you're having distanced away?? and that turned him into the pursuer.

Maybe. I doubt he cares enough to notice, I distanced myself from him for years while he was drinking and he never cared. We shall see. I used to just love talking to him, if he was out of town I used to call him every single day and again at night. Even before we had kids. Just to fill him in on what was going on here. He never had too much to say, even when I'd ask. That's still how he is, just quiet. But one of the things I've tried to change about how we interact is not to be the one who interacts while he sits there passive. If he doesn't want to be or learn how to be an active participant, then I just casually say, alright well I gotta letcha go. I'm usually the first to hang up these days which is totally new for me.

Seems like the perfect place for an application of acting "as if".

I think you're saying I should act as though I would if things were "normal" between us and he was being extra nice to me, i.e. no assumption of ulterior motives, just take it for what it is and express appreciation. Probably the best route, I agree. I didn't really express any appreciation. I've been thinking about that. I didn't really feel a whole lot of appreciation, at least not as much as I did confusion. So, I guess I should say something like "I had a good time this weekend, thanks for thinking of me with drinks and stuff, it was thoughtful." H was always thoughtful like that, keeping my wine rack full, buying me an $80 cheesecake for my b-day one year. Just thoughtful. But I feel like it was just a show to make things seem good on the outside when we both knew inside things were wrong. Anyway, do you think that's a good "as if" statement? I think I'm slightly confused on acting "as if" because that would be acting like I would normally act if things were better and I think I need to change how I normally acted, i.e. pulling away for a while. Does that mean "as if" isn't for me right now? Or does that mean I just act this new way "as if" it's normal and the way things are supposed to be? Technicalities

Either way you're better for what you've become.

Becoming. Some days I feel I've changed so little, it's nothing but a disappointment. It's a journey for sure.

But the waiting is always the suckiest part, isn't it?

Shaa. And I've never been patient person...

You mentioned the lack of kissing a post or two ago, is that still because of his original claim? Does he still say he'll never do it again? Does he still not ride in your car?

Kissing....it's not been brought up in a while. I'm treating it as off limits for brining up, at least by me. I'm sure you can imagine, the desire is pretty intense to just do it sometimes. But, it is definitely not my right to do that. I think it's BS, but it's still his boundary and I cannot cross it without being totally disrespectful to what he wants and what he has said. I get the feeling it's hard for him not to kiss me, but so far he has faithfully stood by his choice not to do it. So, I don't know if he still says he'll never kiss me again b/c it's been a while since I've mentioned it. The bigger deal I make of it, the harder it will be for him to let go of it. But I also think the longer it goes on, the harder it will be for him to let go of it as well. No, he still will not ride in my car. He'll never ride in this vehicle again, as soon as I've owned it long enough to trade it in without negative equity, guess who will be getting a new car? That's an easy fix. Stupid, but easy. This one just came up, before we went up to Fairfax, he asked me what car I was driving. I said "my truck". I said it with a tone of voice that was like, of course, why wouldn't I? He said "B/c the other guys are staying here this weekend too, so I don't know if I'll be able to get the rental...." I just sat there and he said "Nevermind, we'll work it out." I don't know......these aren't things I would do, but I guess it would sort of be like a person who sleeps with someone other than their spouse in the marital bed. Would the other spouse ever sleep in that bed again?? I sure as he!! wouldn't. But I didn't sleep with this guy at all much less in my truck so I don't know if the comparison works. I'm rambling...

Heather wrote that they have sex regularly, so my guess is he rides something else, if you know what I mean.

Very funny. I've thought about changing that. I mean who has sex but doesn't sleep in the same bed or kiss? I've thought about saying, not me. But I can't just not have sex. Good grief, I'm going through enough! We've always had great sex, seems stupid to throw away one of the few things we've got going for us and pretty much the only way we have to connect.

Bud, you'll appreciate this living around here. When we were up in Fairfax, my son said "people around here must eat a lot of bugs". H and I looked at each other, puzzled. We said S4, what do you mean? He said you know the show "Fear Factor", they eat tons of bugs. Fairfax....Fear Factor.....similar enough to have him thinking that they were the same thing. Kids are so funny!

[KimDownUnder]

Heather I have been reading thru all your posts and good on you for sharing all that with everyone. You obviously were very lost with who you were and what you were about when you met H. I do sense alot of insecurities with you though. I hope H has not allowed you to doubt yourself that much but it seems that he has. You beloved kids are only 2 & 4 and yes while impressionable they are young enough that anything can be changed and they will not even remember as adults but if certain patterns continue they will become part of their life. All i am saying is you can have any type of influence you want to have with your kids as they are young just stick at it. You have achieved such wonderful things especially when you look at who you were many years ago when you met H. You are to be congratulated at what you have achieved but don't ever feel you have to put up with something as you don't if your not happy the future is yours to mould however you want with or without your H and that is your decision to make nobody else's. Please look at all you have achieved and strive towards whatever else it is that you want to achieve as you can certainly do it you have proved that....KDU

[Burgbud]

He said you know the show "Fear Factor", they eat tons of bugs. Fairfax....Fear Factor.....similar enough to have him thinking that they were the same thing. Kids are so funny!

Indeed. My kids laughed and laughed the first time they saw the sign for Dumfries (you know, Dumb Fries).

The kissing thing freaks me out. I can see wanting to punish you at first, but it wouldn't take long before I'd want to "reestablish my turf", so to speak. I wouldn't want Om to be the last guy who kissed you. Feel free to give H a loud "WHAT ARE YOU THINKIN' IN YO' HEAD?!?" from me.

As for acting "as if", I think the example in DR (or close enough) is that MDW was returning from a trip. Her H had been upset with her for going on the trip. As she was flying back home she wondered what kind of reception she'd get; would he be cool and angry or would he be happy to see her? If she knew in advance she'd tailor her approach accordingly. But she didn't know, so she decided to act as if he was going to be happy to see her. She was smiling and bubbly coming off the plane. And he was, indeed, happy to see her.

So in your case, just act as if his gestures were genuine baby steps. You can hold some reservations in your mind, but act as if. That doesn't mean acting how you used to; just act the way you would if you were convinced these were positive, non-manipulative actions by H.

[heatherg]

Thanks Kim...your words are very kind and reassuring. I appreciate that.

I do sense alot of insecurities with you though.

If you stop by again, I'd appreciate it if you would elaborate some here. An honest, objective view on my posts is always helpful....and I've come to rely on many of you for just that, so thank you.

Bud, yes, Dumb Fries is another funny one. How can you not snicker at that, even as an adult??

I can see wanting to punish you at first, but it wouldn't take long before I'd want to "reestablish my turf", so to speak. I wouldn't want Om to be the last guy who kissed you.

This is exactly how I would feel if it were me as well. H doesn't think like most of us in case you hadn't noticed I don't know what to think about it, so I try not to think about it at all because I can't control it. Some days that's easier said than done of course.

Journaling:
H called me today at work and asked me if I had a few minutes and I said sure. He said "So....you're sister is going to be in MI when we're up there then right?" I said yes. He said "I can just see this causing problems b/c she's gonna want you to go out and she's not gonna understand even if you tell her you're fine with it and not wanting to go, she's still going to make you feel like it's idiotic. That's the thing with the XXX's (my maiden name), it's like they think they can do whatever they want and there's just no consequences." I said "H, why do you gotta do this? Bring my family into it? I don't want to get into a situation where I'm pitted against my family. You don't think I've been facing my consequences for my actions the last year and I'm a XXX." He said "No, I don't."
He then asks if I planned to go out while we were home. I said "Yes, probably, I assumed if we did that you'd be coming as well." He said "Oh, ok, so it's still fine for you to go out whenever you want to." NY, based on our conversation about the chaperone thing being just a band aid and not really addressing the true underlying trust issue, I used this as an opportunity to give him these thoughts on the "agreement" and I said "H, I agreed not to go into social situations without you while we were working on rebuilding trust, but that can't continue forever. Not allowing me to go anywhere unless you are there is simply making sure that I'm not doing anything wrong~that isn't trust." He said "And how are we supposed to rebuild trust then?" and I said "By me being understanding that things don't go back immediately to the place they were, but that we take steps slowly to eventually get back there". Throughout the rest of the conversation, he said that my family is against him and has been against him since this whole thing came out in the open and that they would love nothing more than for me to divorce him. I told him that wasn't true, that my family isn't against him, that they just want for me what any mother and father want for their daughter which is for her to be happy and respected and they just don't feel that's happening. He disagreed that they were not against him and said that they are just so "pro Heather" that they think I should do whatever I need to in order to make myself happy....their little Heather can do no wrong, what I did is fine and he should just "get over it". I said "H, they don't think what I did was fine. No one in my family thinks that. But they do think that the only way to go forward is to work it out rather than continue to harbor grudges and dispense punishment. He said "But you've never been sorry to me. Why don't you try being sorry and then we can talk about how I've reacted." I said "H, I am sorry." He said "No you're not, you've even said to me 'I can't be sorry to you'." I said "I meant that in the context as it's been hard for me to *express* my remorse to you, not that it isn't there. I did express it in the beginning, but H you kicked me out of my home, took away my key, you kept my kids from me and wouldn't let me feed or dress them, you harrassed me to the point countless times where I was curled up in a ball crying and begging you to stop, you've called me names and screamed at me to get out to go sleep in my car....a person's heart gets hardened, do you understand that?" He said "Do you honestly think I overreacted?" I said "Yes, I can understand those kinds of feelings, but not to that extreme and not to be carried on for so long". He said "you're kidding. Heather, people have *killed* their wives for cheating." I said "H, when people get that crazy about the situation, I doubt it was over a kiss". He said "that's always your saving grace isn't it, that you didn't fu@k him." I said "I just don't want you to turn it into something that it isn't". He said "well, I don't know that, I really don't. I don't know you didn't fu@k him."

He said that if we go to Michigan then we will end up coming home in a state where we are headed for divorce again and he doesn't want that (I am not sure if that was intended to be a threat or not). I said "H, the kids adore my parents and my parents *live* for those kids. I won't jeopardize that." He said "You say that, that they love the kids so much. Why then are they so quick to recommend actions that would destroy their lives forever (i.e. divorce)?" He is convinced that everyone's perspective from my side of the family is "Oh, the kids will be fine". He spent a lot of time criticizing my sister and how disprespectul she is to her H. I said "H, her husband doesn't think she's disrespectful, they have a different M than we do. Anyway, why are you being so judgmental, why do you care, it doesn't impact you one way or the other". He said "Because I've seen you two together, right in front of me, how do you act when I'm *not* there?" I said "We've had a couple of conversations about things I've did that you felt disrespected by. I never meant to hurt you or disrespect you. Last summer, you communicated some things to me that I took to heart and if there have been other instances, you need to tell me so that I can make sure I modify my behavior accordingly b/c the last thing I want to do is make you feel that way".
The night we went out with my siblings came up, where my brother got out pictures of his band and OM. I told him I realized I didn't handle it so well...he said my mother verbally attacked him, whereby I just said that wasn't true, that he had called her daughter a slut to her face and considering that he was lucky she didn't punch his fu@king lights out. He still stands by that he was "fine" that night and there was no reason we should have been offended that he took off. I said "H, no you were not fine. No one thought you were being fine." He said he did the respectable thing instead of staying at the table and causing a scene. I said "Ok, leaving the table is definitely better than causing a scene but leaving the table and not socializing with us the rest of the night was not respectable. Just b/c one alternative is better than the other doesn't mean it's respectable". He said I should have said something to my brother about getting out the picture. I can really understand why he feels this way on this issue. I should have validated more here b/c I really do understand. But I also had my reasons for the way I reacted. I told him that my brother is proud of his band and wanted to get some positive attention from my sister who he doesn't get to see very often. It's not his fault that I made this crappy decision and what right is it of mine to say "Brother, can you put that away for now?" He should not have to worry about this crap (would have been real nice and thoughtful though and saves a lot of BS!!), by no means should I expect that of him. Does that make sense? I hate to impose and make others walk on eggshells b/c of what I did. I can't ask that, I won't.
He said "My parents have never once mentioned divorcing you. Your family on the other hand would love nothing more." I said "They don't want that. They just want for us to either work things out or for you to let me go." I also told him that I can't speak for his family, but maybe it's possible that they see I am remorseful and am trying to make things work and that is why they don't suggest divorce.

The conversation ended with him saying again "I don't think you're sorry. I really don't." I know I should have said something but I didn't and he said "Well I have to go. I'll call back later tonight to talk to the kids."

I don't think I realized the full impact of what he said about people killing their wives for this kind of stuff until now as I was typing it. God, that's creepy isn't it? It really is.....how could I not have really heard that this afternoon, it just sort of went right by me.

We talked for 39 minutes and I'm not sure what to think.
Was I right about this past weekend? About him being so nice to me? Was it just so he could turn around and make these demands? I really think I was right.

[Burgbud]

I don't know what to think about it, so I try not to think about it at all because I can't control it.

You are very wise. But I am not so I will continue to think about it and if I ever see him I will ask him what is he thinking in his head.

You don't think I've been facing my consequences for my actions the last year and I'm a XXX." He said "No, I don't."

Urgh. Has he ever said what he thinks an appropriate consequence might be? Hopefully it's not saying you're sorry until he thinks you've said it enough because S4 may have a beard by then.

He said that if we go to Michigan then we will end up coming home in a state where we are headed for divorce again and he doesn't want that

I can really empathize with him here because he just doesn't get it. I remember what that's like. You guys can go to Michigan and everyone can have a ball and nobody has to be headed for divorce. But he wants everyone to think of him first and nobody's going to. Sucks for him. Not just for this trip but because his life is going to get more and more miserable until he figures out how to be happy letting other people do what they want sometimes. That theme echoes throughout your conversation.

He said "you're kidding. Heather, people have *killed* their wives for cheating."

Amazingly insecure people with no sense of themselves. And lunatics.

I don't know that the statement is really creepy, though. I think he's just way overreaching for a rationalization. He knows he was terrible and somewhere inside he feels bad for pushing you to the point you were curled up in a ball. But he wanted to make you feel horrible and he got what he wanted and it's okay because other people have done worse. So in the end, he was right. Being right is the booby prize of life.

Was I right about this past weekend? About him being so nice to me? Was it just so he could turn around and make these demands? I really think I was right.

Being right is the booby prize of life. Er, I mean, maybe I'm not the best guy to listen to when it comes to discussing manipulative people because I've been accused of being very manipulative. But MDW confronts the issue of is reading DB and/or DR and acting on them trying to manipulate your partner? She says of course it is, people manipulate all the time. We're always trying to get our own way. So I think you can look at his affection this weekend more as a compromise than as trickery. He wants something from you so he tried to give you something in return. It's up to you whether the compromise is acceptable or not. Now, if he says, "I'm not going and S4 is staying here with me" that would be obviously be an unacceptable form of manipulation.

Still, if he'd just be willing to do stuff like he did this weekend for you with no potential strings attached, his life would be a lot better. You sure you don't want me to find him and shake him for you? Hey, it could help. I'd let him shake me back if it would make him feel any better.

[KimDownUnder]

Heather haven't got much time today but I will certainly stop by tomorrow and elaborate...Till then....KDU

[NYsurvivor]

Heather, I again think that what you guys are battling over is the top of the ice berg, fighting over ice chips, and without getting professional counseling in order to grasp the issues better and for each of you to better understand the processes inside both of yourselves, that there'll be many more of these spurious tangent driven arguments/discussions that never really address the real issues. I'll give you some for instances.

H makes very plain his belief that your sister, primarily, and your family may effect an undesirable influence on you. An influence that he also characterizes as being prejudiced against him, and in your favor. Specifically, that your past actions are condonable.

So, he seeks to control the visitation with sis and family so as to curtail their interactions with you, such as by wanting to stay at a cottage rather than with them and seeking to have the final OK over where and when you go out during the visit. And so your discussions with him become these reasoning arguments over why you should or shouldn't have Nth degree of interaction with family, how family is pro Heather, that family's attitude sucks, that H sees "problems" brewing, divorce ahead, etc.

But these aren't really the issues. These are Don Quixote's windmills.

H trying to make your relationship work by trying to control family's influence on you goes to show just how badly in need of help he is.. and you too. Seeking to improve from the outside by cutting third party influences that which can only be improved from the inside via the primary partners.

Part of his issue also is that this is a power struggle as to who's right and who's wrong... and he wants to be proved right and have people support his side.

All this is "Control". That's how H goes about trying to keep his world in order. You know it, I know it, everyone on this site knows it. H doesn't know it.

If H actually worked on the relationship in a productive manner, others, like family, might see the difference in the repaired relationship and take note of its improvement and not be critical of it. That would be the answer to changing how family sees H.

Some other stuff I'm seeing:

I said "H, they don't think what I did was fine. No one in my family thinks that. But they do think that the only way to go forward is to work it out rather than continue to harbor grudges and dispense punishment.

He said "But you've never been sorry to me. Why don't you try being sorry and then we can talk about how I've reacted."

H is saying, "I'm harboring grudges and dispensing punishment because I haven't received an apology in the form I want."

Not that even if you gave him that exact apology might he stop his behaviors, mind you.

His statement also implies that any "higher ground" behavior coming from him is contingent on you first... I'll be good if you're good... and that's not love. Love doesn't hold grudges and critically punish.

I said "H, I am sorry." He said "No you're not, you've even said to me 'I can't be sorry to you'."

Don't we know better than to say we know what the other person truly is thinking and feeling? We learn that to tell another person what their thoughts/feelings are is invalidative, demeaning and... yep... a form of control.

It's also disturbing that H dismisses your apologies, argues against them. Why? Is it in order to remain being the hurt partner, and in so doing, create a never ending obligation on your part to make it up to him by doing what he says?

"but H you kicked me out of my home, took away my key, you kept my kids from me and wouldn't let me feed or dress them, you harassed me to the point countless times where I was curled up in a ball crying and begging you to stop, you've called me names and screamed at me to get out to go sleep in my car....a person's heart gets hardened, do you understand that?"

He said "Do you honestly think I overreacted?"

Interesting that he sees this litany of his actions and their impact on you as "over reacting" but doesn't admit it, instead throwing the question back at you so as to start a argument over whether what he did was over the top or not. And so he does:

He said "you're kidding. Heather, people have *killed* their wives for cheating."

Over reacting, he goes on to reason, is when someone actually kills their spouse. By comparison, he reasons that the list of his abuses is acceptable or tolerable, because they don't meet his extreme definition of "over reacting".

Don't you think a more responsible response to hearing that list should be, "Geez Hun, my anger got the best of me. I'm so sorry. I hurt you badly. I shouldn't have acted that way toward you. It won't happen again" rather than an argument condoning it?

The typical abusive partner does not see the consequences of their actions as it affects others, but sees the consequences of their actions as it affects them and passes the blame for it to others. Here, his actions have had you in a fetal position, crying, hardening your heart, and what he then focuses on is that what he did wasn't that bad, rather than the crippling toll it took on his loved one.

Yet, as you know, he has no problem being the hurt, begrudging victim of Heather's previous actions, and lets you know that every time. And even when you offer an apology, he won't accept it... doesn't work with that to put these issues behind.

And of his own accord, he won't, Heather. Never will. And so your discussion with him ends with him saying, yet again, "I don't believe you're sorry."

He said "And how are we supposed to rebuild trust then?" and I said "By me being understanding that things don't go back immediately to the place they were, but that we take steps slowly to eventually get back there".

Your answer was that trust takes time to rebuild, but didn't answer how. Husband thinks that trust is rebuilt by chaperoning (and controlling), but we know all that means is (and this is not meant as a reflection on you, but just as a general statement about chaperoning) that the "offender" simply doesn't engage in unethical conduct while being directly observed, duh. And that doesn't rebuild trust.

Trust is built with actions, and over time. If you're genuinely being faithful, no evidence of breach will be found; anything that seems like it will be proven to be otherwise. Along the way, lots of reassurance is needed to be given the LBS, and transparency of the WAS's whereabouts, so that if the LBS begins to doubt, they can check and call and relieve their doubts. Some WASs complain about this, but if someone's really sincerely interested in repairing what was shattered... This sucks for everyone, not just the WAS, but you know, we undergo operations that cut us and cause pain, in order to heal and be made better. Same stuff.

But eventually, a degree of trust is rebuilt that way.

But trust is more than that. Has to be. Blind trust isn't what we want. We need to build a trust that trusts in ourselves, as the former LBS, that we'll pay more attention to the relationship and the needs of our lover. That we'll do what we need to do to make things work. That we have confidence in ourselves. And if our relationship does fail, if this ever happens to us again, we are strong and will be OK.

Now, true to course, H fights against this mode of building trust because he has to have it his way or the highway. All you can do is help guide him to understand why he may feel that way, which stems from his past not his present. When you discuss things with him, keep on topic instead of all these tangents he throws at you. Do not move forward in your discussion if he does so. Otherwise these barbs will continually be thrown at you... discussions that never go anywhere and thus are never fruitful. When he states a premise to you, suss out what the real argument is and reason on that with him. If he brings up past grudges or points blame, tell him the discussion doesn't include that and the discussion is over if that's what he wants to do with it.

In other words, you need to set certain boundaries on how these discussions will go.