Learning to Trust Myself

[Burgbud]

And I'm not nearly as free as I thought I would be, as he wields this great new power over me.

Take it back from him. Become stronger. Set and enforce boundaries.

Indeed. The children are from both of you; how is it he has power but you do not? Is it because he's willing to "wield" the power but you put the children first?

Those kids are a great reason not to just kick him to the curb without going the distance to salvage your M. But they're just as great a reason not to subjugate yourself to a lot of his behavior that you've had to deal with so far.

[heatherg]

I was first married at 26, divorced at 37. Had two kids with her. Had a few relationships after that, including an on again.off again 4 year relationship that I eventually ended, only to meet the gal who became my second W and great love of my life.

Wow, it's weird to think the person one is with may not be the love of their life...how frightening and intriguing at the same time.

It doesn't matter if you have children together or not.

I'll be the first to admit that sometimes when people say they want to stay together for the kids, what they are really saying is "It is *I* who cannot bear to be separated from my children, so I will stay *because* of them, not necessarily *for* them".

It's better for children not to live in that kind of environment anyway.

I haven't been able to determine this yet. There are proponents on both sides of the argument. I cannot see from their eyes so I do not know how much this is affecting them.....my father slept on the couch my entire childhood, he still does to this day. They told me it was because he snores. Maybe that was the real reason, maybe it wasn't. I think I'm ok though, as a child.......I started trying to justify this and relate it to me but literally as I was typing I realized that I was in fact embarrassed to have friends sleep over b/c I knew it was weird....among other weird things at my house as a kid but anyway....
Well, that was a fruitless path, sorry. Bottom line, it's hard for me to tell if and how much the kids are being affected by what's going on. They seem pretty darn happy to me and they are certainly crazy about their father. Seems if they were being affected so deeply they would be weary of him and they absolutely are not.

how is it he has power but you do not? Is it because he's willing to "wield" the power but you put the children first?

Because the kids play into his hands every single time. He is funner than me or something, I don't know. Consider the argument H and I got into over July 4th weekend~I was going to take S4 and D2 to the beach and H was furious b/c he wanted to take S4 to the family business with him while he helped his father rewire speakers. S4 expressed he'd like to go to the beach but ultimately (after seeing H protest and fight me over the issue) "chose" to go with Daddy. What can I possibly say? I cannot make him come with me. So yeah, in many ways H definitely exercises his power with the kids. Same with daycare. If we ask them who they would rather have take them, S4 will say daddy about 98% of the time and D2 probably 75% of the time. I can't figure it out. Except maybe they think I'm boring or don't pay as much attention to them, but I try. I talk to them, we listen to kids music or they can watch tv....I don't know what else to try.

Set and enforce boundaries.

Here's a perfect chance for me to do just that. I need help. We have a vacation scheduled at the end of this month to go home to Michigan, which is where we are both from although H's parents have moved here and mine are still up there.
I mentioned to H wanting to firm up the dates that we'll be there b/c my sister wants to try to meet us up there. He said "can't we go on a vacation without your sister?" WTF?? So, we went back and forth on that topic for a couple minutes. Then he says "I don't want to spend all my time at your parents' house, I mean all *our* time". I said "Ok, so what are you saying?" He said "Maybe we can rent a cottage or something.". We have always stayed with my parents. I seem them just a couple of times a year for crying out loud and they ADORE our kids. S4 especially has a great relationship with my mother, which means a lot to me to preserve. I said "H, we always stay with my parents, they don't get to see the kids very often, why would we stay at a cottage?" He said "Because we're a family, why wouldn't we stay at a cottage. I don't really get along with my in-laws anymore. I'd like to go to the wedding (his side of the family) and I'd like to see Todd (his best friend), but we don't even have to go." I just sat there in silence. Thankfully his battery on his cell phone was dying, so we had to hang up.
Apparently, he is carrying resentment about the night we went out with my siblings and when he came home that night, my mother later told me he said to her "Your slut daughter is going back to the bar where she cheated on me...". He also said to my mother "She's never been sorry, do you know that? She's never been sorry to me for what she did." My mother said "Have you ever been sorry to her for the things you've done, have you ever told her you were sorry that you didn't stop drinking the night she went into labor? Why won't you go to counseling with her to try to work through these things?"
So, now apparently he is harboring resentment toward them all. He's damn lucky my mother didn't punch his lights out, calling me a slut. What did he think she was going to do, AGREE with him??!
So, now I've got more problems as he is going to try to drive a wedge between me, the kids and my family. My family absolutely hates him, he doesn't know the half of it and of course I keep those things to myself as I don't want things to be difficult if we reconcile. My family will have to forgive him and I've told them that.

So what do I do? How do I set boundaries here?

[NYsurvivor]

Seems if they were being affected so deeply they would be weary of him and they absolutely are not.

I'm talking about them growing up with role models where true love isn't shown, dysfunctional relationships are the norm and how that affects them, maybe not today, but plays out in their lives tomorrow when they do themselves what they've grown up to believe is how people are.

We have a vacation scheduled at the end of this month to go home to Michigan <snip> So what do I do? How do I set boundaries here?

You already did set your boundaries when you stated to him "I see [my parents] just a couple of times a year for crying out loud ... they don't get to see the kids very often" and citing that as the very reasonable premise why you wish to stay with your folks.

So the problem is he doesn't respect your wishes and give them equal weight to his.

Personal story: My ex's dad lives in MI as well. That's where my ex is from. same thing with her: goes back a couple of times every year and we always stay with her dad. he has a guest room in the basement. I always felt that I was being whisked away 1000 miles to stay underground for ten days. My initial preference also was not to stay 24/7 with the in-laws. Jeez, I'd go nuts staying 24/7 with blood relatives, let alone in-laws. Anyhow, it was more important to her to stay there, so we stayed there every time.

Long story short, I found ways to get enjoyment out of it. I cooked a lot of the meals and they really loved my cooking, and that kept me busy, gave us yummy stuff to eat, and I got complimented which is always nice, and bonded some with them. It also made the foray into town on those occasions we got out that much more fun. Now I find I really do miss those times.

"Because we're a family" makes no sense to me... It's about not liking your in-laws, and the reason he doesn't like them is because he's a negative person and he's spewed some venom out, and he's probably embarrassed himself. But he did that to himself, it's not anyone's fault but his because he didn't watch his mouth.

Anyway, you keep to your guns, he has to respect your wishes and consider them. It's YOUR visit to YOUR family, after all. If he tries to drive a wedge or whatever he does, he alone is responsible for his behavior, don't get sucked into his theatrics and BS. Let him know that you're aware of what he's up to and tell him to stop it. Don't say more about it then that, don't get into discussion about it because he'll deny he's up to anything, and turn it around on you, and make the fault yours and all that stuff typical of his behavior.

Setting and maintaining boundaries is not the end all nor a magic pill. If someone doesn't respond to respecting reasonable requests and honoring boundaries, some tougher evaluations and actions need be made.

[Burgbud]

Heather I don't want you to feel ganged up on here so feel free to practice setting boundaries in this forum any time. But NYS didn't mention the thing I reacted strongest to in your post so I wanted to say something about it.

Because the kids play into his hands every single time. He is funner than me or something, I don't know. Consider the argument H and I got into over July 4th weekend~I was going to take S4 and D2 to the beach and H was furious b/c he wanted to take S4 to the family business with him while he helped his father rewire speakers. S4 expressed he'd like to go to the beach but ultimately (after seeing H protest and fight me over the issue) "chose" to go with Daddy.

That doesn't sound to me in any way like he's funner or he's being chosen. It sounds just exactly like S4 is following an established pattern where H fights and argues until he gets his way. S4 already knows the way to keep peace in the family is to do what H wants. Obviously I know very little about the total situation in your family but this example makes me wonder if S4 hasn't already taken a lot of responsibility for the family's happiness upon himself. I have yet to meet a 4yo who would rather watch somebody wire speakers than go to the beach. But if a kid has to choose between going to the beach and watching his parents fight...

I can't remember a time my kids were in that position but it's certainly possible. If they weren't it's probably because W is more the yeller and I'm more the non-confrontational eye-rolling type, though I joined in the yelling more and more as time went on. I have, however, seen my kids run out of the room to get away from the yelling. That memory breaks my heart and is breaking my heart right now. I would rather be divorced than see that again.

[heatherg]

Heather I don't want you to feel ganged up on here

No way!! This board has saved me from feeling like I'm going through this alone. I know we are all "just" virtual friends, but it means a heck of a lot to me. You guys feel like my life line sometimes!!

S4 already knows the way to keep peace in the family is to do what H wants.

Gosh, do you really think? I guess I thought S4 would show some fear or some uncertainty or something toward H in this case.....but maybe not. I need to think more on this.

and the reason he doesn't like them is because he's a negative person and he's spewed some venom out, and he's probably embarrassed himself.

I think you're right b/c H always did love my family. He never dreaded going there, the only complaint was that my parents live 15 miles from "town" (I grew up in Hickville, ok?) and his best friend lives 15 miles out of "town" in the other direction. And of course, when we go, we only have one car. So, it was always a juggling act. HEL-LO, staying in a cottage would only make that worse. Anyway, it's only been since this last blow up that he's expressed any distaste for my family. In the recent past, he implied that I act differently when I have my "support network" around. I think he feels especially threatened by my sister b/c her and I are so close and we always get wild when we're together and I'm always more sure of myself when I'm around my family, people who've always loved and supported me.

You already did set your boundaries when you stated to him "I see [my parents] just a couple of times a year for crying out loud ... they don't get to see the kids very often" and citing that as the very reasonable premise why you wish to stay with your folks.

And here I've been thinking I didn't know how to set boundaries.....you mean I've been doing it all along and the problem is that they're just not being honored. Hmm. I've been thinking of boundaries as things that I put in place in such a way that they have to be honored....I guess there's no real way to do that, so no wonder I felt like I was missing something.

I have, however, seen my kids run out of the room to get away from the yelling. That memory breaks my heart

These little guys are our lives.....to see them show such visible signs that the environment *we've* created for them is hurting them is a real eye opener. When H and I argued over the beach vs the speaker wire extravaganza, S4 put his head down on the couch in frustration....mmm, yeah. It's a bad thing.

[Dmsw4]

I don't know the complete situation either Heather, but I do know that my girls would rather ride with their dad just about anywhere, and going to work with him is one of their favorite things to do. And we've never argued about it. So, it's not like they feel obligated to go with him. There's a term I've heard, "Disney Dad". Dad is just more fun, when he has time with the kids, they PLAY. They don't clean the house, make meals, have a strict bedtime. They play. Kids like to play, so I let them. I take the time to do stuff for me. I relax, sometimes I clean, sometimes I just sit and watch TV-which I NEVER do these days.

I know it's hard when he is playing them against you, impossible even, but remember they love you. You mend their owies and broken hearts and feed them and care for them. They will know this.

I loved the sleepover idea you had with S4. The girls and I would have movie nights on Fridays and rent movies and make popcorn and stay up late.

Maybe we can learn something from our Hs and try to play a little more, but then, who would clean the house?

[heatherg]

Mel~

Dad is just more fun, when he has time with the kids, they PLAY

Maybe I just need to accept this. Come to some calm place in my heart where I can just leave this be. I have really, really stepped up in the playing department, and it could just be that S4 can tell the difference between me and H where I play Star Wars guys with him b/c S4 wants me to and H plays Star Wars guys with him b/c *H* wants to. I'm sure S4 can tell by the level of enthusiasm who really wants to play the most. I try to really want to play Star Wars, but I have to let myself be ok with the fact that I don't really want to play Star Wars guys!!!
H will play 24/7. That's tough too. If I want to try to get in some bonding time, I have to really work at it. I can't just say "S4, let's go do this or that" b/c he's usually playing with Daddy and if he's not, he knows he will be in a little bit. There are probably plenty of aspects of this situation that I blame H for when really it could just be the way the cookies crumble, ya know?
This is definitely where my head starts to swim though, trying to figure out what's reasonable and what isn't, what's control and what isn't, what S4 truly wants vs what S4 does to make H happy, etc. It's tough to sort it all out. Thanks for your help with sorting through those things with me.

Maybe we can learn something from our Hs and try to play a little more, but then, who would clean the house?

I hear ya!! It's quite the dilemma isn't it??? I'd hire a maid if only she would have a place to put things "away" to. That's our problem, our house is too small. So, unless the maid can build a couple of closets while she's there, I'm SOL for now.

Thanks Mel. BTW, I always thought Mellanie was your real name

[Dmsw4]

It's funny you know. I have a friend with two boys and they have "action figures" all over the house, star wars, GI Joes, etc. My house it's Polly Pockets. Same stuff, different gender.

If you can relax and let them go with H without making a deal about it, it will help the kids relax too, and give you some Heather time.

By the way, It's Barb, but don't tell anyone, OK...I was really nervous about posting and opening up when I first started, so I gave myself a different name. Now, I think I would answer to either. Take care. B

[heatherg]

Well it's nice to meet you B., sheesh, that will take some getting used to!!

I had a good weekend. Kids and I drove to northern VA to stay with H. I was sort of regretting I had said we would come up, but off we went anyway.
When we got there, H had a candle burning (something he quite obviously does for my benefit, I love candles). He had Mike's HL which is something I like to drink in the summertime.....don't ask, something about drinking out of a bottle (as opposed to a glass, like wine or a martini) on a hot day. You know that anniversary card I put in his bag that he never acknowledged? It was displayed on the bar next to the candle. He told me it was nice to have me there, nice to have my stuff laid out all over the bathroom counter. I was washing dishes later that night and he came up behind me with a hug and a small shoulder massage. He hasn't massaged my back in over a year.

So, what is up? Is this to get me to agree to a "cottage" when we go to Michigan? Rhetorical question, but gives you an idea of my thoughts on the subject. Guess we'll have to wait and see, but I will stay with my parents and so will the kids if he doesn't start a tug of war with them.

I don't know how I feel. Terrified for him to come back home, that much I am 100% sure of. He's talking about buying a new house, which is something I've wanted for years....but we don't even sleep in the same bed!! How do you buy a house with someone who won't share a bed with you?? Same way you have sex with someone who won't kiss you I guess

[NYsurvivor]

When we got there, H had a candle burning (something he quite obviously does for my benefit, I love candles). He had Mike's HL which is something I like to drink in the summertime.....don't ask, something about drinking out of a bottle (as opposed to a glass, like wine or a martini) on a hot day. You know that anniversary card I put in his bag that he never acknowledged? It was displayed on the bar next to the candle. He told me it was nice to have me there, nice to have my stuff laid out all over the bathroom counter. I was washing dishes later that night and he came up behind me with a hug and a small shoulder massage. He hasn't massaged my back in over a year.

I'll be cynical with my hunch here that what he wanted was sex. Hope I'm wrong.