Learning to Trust Myself

[Burgbud]

Can you think of a tactful way to bring it up without making it sound like I'm stirring up trouble?

If he's determined to see it as stirring up trouble he will. I think bringing it up calmly with emphasis on S4 is the best you can do: "H, I'm still concerned about S4's manners. When I greet him politely I expect him to return a polite greeting. Do you agree?" And if he agrees he should be able to back you up when necessary in a "Do what your mom says" way, rather than a way that makes it seem S4 has to do what dad says.

...he sent the message that he would not support me in any way. That includes with the kids.

Wow. At some level he sees leverage and control as the only way to keep you. Even at the expense of the kids.

He said "That's right, don't rely on me for anything."

Reminds me of something I read recently (guess what book? ) I'll paraphrase it like this: if your woman can't rely on you for anything, why should she be with you? It's so blindingly obvious you'd think even us dumba55es would figure it out on our own. But apparently some of us have to read it in books after being slapped upside the head by life. I feel bad for him and I feel bad for you. Something's gotta snap in that guy.

[NYsurvivor]

H would not have allowed S4 to treat his grandma that way. I even made that comparison to H at the time we discussed the "no greeting" incident. He said something like, she would be a guest or some crap, someone he doesn't see all the time.

Your H continually comes up with BS reasoning to justify himself.

Naturally, I said WTH does that have to do with anything? H further justified S4's behavior by saying he was in the middle of watching a movie

See?

You're more than a guest in your own home, and more than a guest to your son. If it's appropriate for your son to show courtesy and respect to a guest, how much more so is it appropriate for him to show you at least the same degree of respect and courtesy?

And since when do we teach our children to ignore civilities and loved ones?

Your H's full of crap argument is really: "I believe that you're not worthy of respect from your own son".

And that suggests what he really thinks is: "I don't respect you, so why should anyone else."

No wonder you get the sense son doesn't respect you. That's what he's learning everyday.

It really doesn't matter what you say to H, he'll counter with some nonsense or other. You don't "beget" his behavior. He's not on the defensive, Heather, he's on the offensive. He creates it all by his lonesome, you're just a pawn.

and I try to correct S4 with something, I can expect an eyeroll or a look of contempt.

Heather, what do you think an "eye roll" or "contemptuous look" signifies? It's control. Dismissing you. You're not an equal person to him in his eyes.

This could be "normal" behavior for a 4 year old, as their attention spans are pretty short!! What makes it feel less than normal is that he seems to interact so much differently and better with Dad.

Well then this is specifically how he acts around you and not "normal" for him. Don't overlook that how he sees H treating you is how he's learning to treat you too, especially if he wants to court dad's favor or is being rewarded by attention and support from dad.

my prompting would be saying something to H along the lines of he should back me up here. Hence, I would be the one "picking the fight in front of the kids".

Asking for support, looking to be a unified parental team, is deemed by your H as "picking a fight in front of the kids"... which is BS of course, and H using the "kid's card" to stop you from having any power whatsoever. Which also means he's using the kids for his own power play.

I have wavered between leaving and staying and during the times I chose to distance myself from H, he sent the message that he would not support me in any way. That includes with the kids.

Trust me Heather, there are divorce attorneys out there that would get fighting mad over H's attitude about not supporting you or the kids if you left him and would gladly rip into him like piranha. He'll pay. His threat is more bull. In fact, if you actually pack up and leave him, watch how fast he becomes a clingy needy person I'll bet, but don't fall for it.

[heatherg]

And that suggests what he really thinks is: "I don't respect you, so why should anyone else."

Yeah...I guess I just keep hoping I can earn his respect back along with his trust. It just really muddies the water that I betrayed our M vows, it just throws a huge wrench into something that was already messed up and it increases the amount of BS I'm willing to put up with b/c I know a lot of this is my fault. I don't like the way H is treating me, but when you hurt someone, you don't get to control the way they react. Consequences weren't meant to be fun I guess.

You don't "beget" his behavior.

On some level, I have to b/c no one would act the way H acts otherwise......I am not by any means a model person. I cheated on my H, I have a temper, I'm impatient, I'm self centered, I'm indecisive and I don't listen well. Those are negative qualities I see in myself, not based on how anyone else views me. I know I have shortcomings and I know they've played into the downfall of my M. If H would just be more specific with me, I could figure out exactly how and try to change those things around immediately. Instead, I'm flailing around like a fish out of water trying to solve a puzzle before I run out of breath. Can fish solve puzzles....maybe I'll start a thread on that...

Trust me Heather, there are divorce attorneys out there that would get fighting mad over H's attitude about not supporting you or the kids if you left him and would gladly rip into him like piranha.

Oops, I meant emotional support not monetary support, i.e. as in he doesn't have to support any efforts of mine, including my efforts with the kids. Sorry for the confusion. I make more money than he does and for all I know, I'd be the one paying child support...

I'll paraphrase it like this: if your woman can't rely on you for anything, why should she be with you?

If not for our babies, I think the answer would be obvious to me. I love my husband. There is no person on this earth I'd rather be with. But not at the expense of my own self respect. If not for our babies, my solution would be to leave. Leave with the hopes that some time apart would serve us well in the long run. But it's about more than me, more than us. I don't want to battle with my H over custody of my children and god knows what else. I don't want to be the one who takes them away from their daddy. In beginning such an endeavor I could forget about being able to fix anything between us as things would only continue to get worse and worse as we both fought for custody of our kids, each believing we're in the best position to have decision making authority. It would be a nightmare.

[Burgbud]

I don't like the way H is treating me, but when you hurt someone, you don't get to control the way they react.

Was he not like this before?

If not for our babies, I think the answer would be obvious to me. I love my husband. There is no person on this earth I'd rather be with. But not at the expense of my own self respect. If not for our babies, my solution would be to leave. Leave with the hopes that some time apart would serve us well in the long run. But it's about more than me, more than us. I don't want to battle with my H over custody of my children and god knows what else. I don't want to be the one who takes them away from their daddy. In beginning such an endeavor I could forget about being able to fix anything between us as things would only continue to get worse and worse as we both fought for custody of our kids, each believing we're in the best position to have decision making authority. It would be a nightmare.

I like your answer. But I want to make sure you understand I wasn't directing that at you. It's directed at the man, particularly to a man who wants his wife to solve her own problems without him having to get involved. And it seems to apply to a man who doesn't think his wife should rely on him as well.

[heatherg]

Journaling~
Ok, digging deep here. The Emotional Abuse book asks some questions that I'm going to answer out loud as best I can as some of you may be wondering why I'm with H b/c it seems I have nothing good to say.....

Understand why you chose an abusive partner.....

Hmm. I was a troubled girl when I met my H. I was 17 and had been in quite a downward spiral for two years by this time. At 15, I met my first love....I was wild about him but he broke my heart, he might say I broke his, I had so little self esteem I did things to keep him at a distance.....I didn't recover well from that breakup. I had very little parental guidance and had freedom that no teenage girl should have, as the maturity to make good decisions is seriously lacking at that age. I was getting drunk and high on the weekends. I lost my virginity in a painful way and continued to have one night stands in an alcoholic haze where to this day I remember very little, if even their names. When I met my H, he was like a breath of fresh air. He was a virgin. He didn't get high. He had strong morals, he was sure about what was right and what was wrong and he acted accordingly. He set boundaries for me that my parents couldn't or wouldn't set. He let me know what was ok for me to do and what wasn't. He had a perverse interest in every detail of what went on during my one night stand encounters. I was hurt and confused as to why he had to have such details and every time we discussed it, which was really often I wondered if today would be the day he would realize how disgusting I was and that he no longer wanted to be associated with me. Sometimes he would get really quiet and I'd have to coax out of him what was bothering him and he'd tell me he was thinking about some of the things I'd done. He would ask me how I could have done those things, why would I do that? I would cry, tell him how bad I felt about it, how much I wish I could change it. Sometimes I couldn't coax out of him what was wrong and he would just leave in that mood, leave me wondering if we were over. Sometimes he would tell me he thought of another question about the one night stands that he needed answered and my heart would freeze b/c I didn't want to talk about it anymore. But I thought if he could hear everything, every bad thing I'd ever done or thought, and he still loved me, then I was cleansed. I was redeemed. Free to start over and start being a good person. Despite all his good morals, I should note that even back then, he was an alcoholic and it was fairly obvious, however, it went undiagnosed by me even though at the time I met him he didn't have a license due to a DUI offense.
I listened to everything he said, did everything he wanted. I was incredibly in tune with his reactions and if anything I did got a negative reaction, I quit doing it. Granted he was controlling, but I made it soooo easy. I wanted his acceptance so badly I would have bled for it. I quit listening to my music, dance music. We listened to his music, which I never really liked but pretended I did. I wasn't allowed to dance at parties. I wasn't allowed out of his sight really. I wasn't allowed out with my friends anymore, but they were bad news anyway. I didn't wear the clothes he didn't like. I bought new clothes he did like. I didn't wear silver jewelry anymore b/c he didn't like it. He replaced my stuff with gold. When an incident came about where I acted at my own discretion, I paid for it later through a fight and a thorough period of silent treatment. Once I got a little nail ring put in my pinky nail at the suggestion of my nail tech. He was furious I didn't check with him first. For senior girls' night out, we were supposed to be out with girls only. Eventually the girls all went to a "co-ed" party....he was absolutely livid even though he himself had been at a "co-ed" party. For my senior prom, he limited my dress choices to black and white dresses b/c he wanted to go in black in white even though it was my prom. One time I bought a leather jacket that I knew he didn't like. He didn't spend x-mas with me that year.
He used to work two jobs and it was usually my responsibility to wake him up as he would sleep through alarm clocks....he was so mean to me, I didn't want him to be late for his job or miss his class so I would pester him to get up....god he was evil. I would justify his behavior and soothe my hurt feelings by tellin myself it was because he was working two jobs or that he was half asleep and didn't know what he was saying or how he was acting. I would spend hours with him at the gas station he worked at, he used to work the night shift. I would be so tired and want to go home, but was afraid to tell him I wanted to leave. I was afraid of losing his acceptance and I lived with that fear every day.
Why did I choose an abusive partner? Because I was 17, my self esteem was nil and I needed the acceptance of someone who was better than me.

To be continued...

[Burgbud]

You are amazing, Heather. Thank you for sharing. It takes a big heart to be able to look at yourself and your life that honestly and deeply in the midst of so much turmoil. Nice work.

Be extra good to yourself today.

[heatherg]

Continuation...

Understand why you have put up with the abuse.

I've never recognized H's behavior as abuse, even now I struggle with it. It's much easier for me to look back and characterize it as abuse than it is for me acknowledge present behavior as abuse.
That aside, when we lived in Michigan I could always go home to my parents' house. I could escape whenever I wanted to. When we moved to VA, I no longer had anywhere to escape to. THAT was hard. H's drinking became more frequent, he was drinking six nights a week usually (we did not marry until several years later, I call him H here for convenience). We lived in a one bedroom apartment that I hated and I was really, really miserable. I looked forward to going to college (I was working full time for a year waiting to attain residency so I didn't have to pay out-of-state tuition) and I fantasized about joining a sorority and moving into the house to get away from H. I loved him, but I can't remember why I loved him back then.
I stayed because I had a lot in my future to look forward to and now was not the right time to leave although I fantasized about it frequently during this time. Besides, in the meantime, H may come around and stop drinking so much. I started school and joined a sorority, dismayed to find they didn't have a sorority house. I commuted, as the school was only 10 minutes from my house (H and I bought a house together right before I started school b/c crappy apt was broken into and they stole everything we owned and I was NOT going back there). Slowly but surely I started to let my colors shine and refused to be told what to wear, etc. It was a very slow process and there were plenty of fights, he regularly called me a "taker", but I remember tears on H's part, he didn't want to lose me. But he knew he had to change or he would. The outright controlling eventually went away, and so did the temper he had.....he stopped throwing things, pushing me and hitting things. All pretty positive stuff. During these years, he cut back on his drinking as well. He would still drink up to 18 beers at a time, but he didn't drink as often, probably on 4 nights a week as opposed to 6. He stayed up very late at night, played video games a lot and slept half the day away on the weekends b/c he couldn't get up. We fought a lot about the amount of alcohol he drank (sooo odd, the awareness of how much he drank seemed to increase as he cut back...you'd think it would have been the other way around) and we also fought a lot about how much time he spent playing video games and sleeping. I felt ignored. During this time I stayed though because I think I felt some good things were happening as I was becoming more my own person, H had less control over me. Plus I was very busy with working and going to school and my sorority. H ignored me, but I had other stuff to do so it wasn't as big of a deal as it would have been if I wasn't in school.
H proposed to me the week before I graduated college. Of course I said yes, I don't think I'd had active thoughts of leaving him since we lived in the apt. I knew I still didn't like a lot of his behavior and the way he treated me, but leaving wasn't something I remember considering at this point. There were a couple times during the engagement that I almost called it off though. I had a roomate lined up at one point and was thinking I should move out. Looking back, I can see that my life had probably calmed down significantly with having graduated and I probably wanted more of his time which he was pretty unwilling to give. We fought a great deal. H's sister moved down here about this time with her H, she was pregnant with a boy. Their company took my mind of things somewhat although I confided in her about H's drinking problem. About 7 months after H proposed, I found out I was pregnant. I had gone off birth control, knowing we wanted to try for a baby as soon as we were married. I was sure I was going to have problems getting pregnant b/c my sister did. So, I wanted to get the birth control "out of my system". Yeah, sure, whatever Heather. Pregnant the next month. I was shocked. Really shocked. I don't think I had thought through actually having a baby, but I was all for it. So was H. We were really, really excited. I was seven months pregnant at my wedding, that wasn't so great, but we'd been together so long, I truly don't think anyone gave it a second thought. I remember my wedding being one of the last truly happy times with H, he was sooo affectionate with me and our wedding was awesome. We had so much to look forward to and I was sure that having a baby would change all the things about him I didn't like with the drinking and staying up late and sleeping in. I was forever zoning in on the future at this point, always confident that the future was going to be happier than the present. But I became really obssessed with H's drinking problem. Although he continued to drink less and less, alcohol's priority in his life never changed if that makes sense, it was still always more important than me, the nights always rigid and set in stone and controlling everything we did. We got married on a Friday, which was a drinking night. H waited until Saturday (the reception) to drink, which is one of the few times he's moved around his drinking schedule, but I worried about it a lot before the wedding wondering if he would be drunk on our wedding night. The whole honeymoon, I kept wondering if he was going to be able to go a whole week without drinking, but he did. As I got closer to my due date, I expected that H would not drink as much or as often b/c I may have to go to the hospital at any time. I was wrong, he always drank on his scheduled nights no matter what, even as I was overdue. H drank three nights a week at this point and sure enough, the night I went into labor was a drinking night, my water broke at about 8:30pm after H had already had a few. My mother was here and I couldn't "convince" H that I was in labor even though my water had broke! He clearly didn't want to stop drinking...he had two or three more and finally my mother had to ask him to please stop b/c I was going to need him. He did stop, but I have never forgotten or forgiven that night I don't think.
Having a baby did change my H, for sure. In ways I could never have imagined. I didn't have a clue he would be such a great dad. B/c of the wedding, we were broke and could only afford for me to take two weeks off after having our son. Needless to say, I didn't bond well with him in such a short time and actually was more afraid of him and how I was going to be able to get enough sleep to go to work was a constant worry. H really stepped up. But I never had that special bond with my son.......sometimes I wonder if that is why we still have problems to this day. Well, eventually I came to feel left out as son never wanted me always wanted H. H cut his drinking down to two nights a week and only drank up to 14 at a time now, but we fought more about it than ever. Right after son was born, I got a new job, a great job (I still work there). I started studying for the CPA exam when son was only 9 months old. H was out of town so I was taking care of the house, working full time, taking care of son and a sick dog that we fought about constantly. Every night I studied from 8-11pm. Literally, every night and then I would wake up and do it all over again. I needed H's emotional support soo badly, but never got it. I passed the exam with flying colors the first time around, which is pretty rare. As soon as we found out I passed, we started trying for baby #2. A few months later, I was pregnant. I was determined to have a different relationship with my daughter. I took three months off from work and bonded with her. She was my redemption as a mother, she preferred me. I was overjoyed with my new baby as she taught me that I really was a good mother.
Well gang, the rest is history and pretty current history at that, as daughter is only 2 1/2.
My reasons for staying varied through each stage of our R, but the main reason seems to be that the future always seemed so bright regardless of what the present felt like. And my reasons for staying now are mostly because I have two babies that live and breathe their mommy and daddy and I can't take that away from them.

[Dmsw4]

Heather, this is all so deep and insightful. I can see bits and pieces in my own life. I've lost such a huge part of me along the way. I don't know when it happened, but through blow ups and disappointment and criticism, I learned how to be a good housewife, but a really bad lover. I think that part of me was just killed off.

And, about not recognizing the abuse. My friends saw it, they saw it, but I didn't. I made excuses for him, so many times.

I just wanted to let you know how I appreciate your candor. It really is very gripping.

Kiss the babies and give yourself a hug.

Mel (who will one of these days tell you my real name, when I find the real me, maybe)

[heatherg]

It's sad how after a while, people just give up and stop trying. We feel hurt and sad and disappointed. I turned 30 last year....a lot happened last year. Worst year of my life, bar none. But turning 30 made me realize, very sadly, that the future is here. Heather, this is what you've been waiting for. You bought a house when you were 20. You've graduated college with honors. You made great sorority friends that you still keep in contact with. You passed the CPA exam. You have a promising career. You have two beautiful children. Your future is here, it's happened. Looking forward doesn't hold promise for me the way it used to. I have to stop running now, hurtling myself into the future and face the present, and look at my life as it is today with the man as he is today and the possiblity that tomorrow that man will not be any different. Damn, it's hard. Once I reclaimed myself from H, I knew deep inside that I would always be a free bird regardless of what H tried to tether around me. Heather had arrived in her own life and she wasn't sitting backstage anymore. What I didn't fully comprehend was that in the process of becoming this woman, my babies would be the diamond studded tether that ultimately binds me to him for life. And I'm not nearly as free as I thought I would be, as he wields this great new power over me.

[NYsurvivor]

Your future is here, it's happened.

Heather, your future is yet ahead of you. There are so many twists and turns ahead and possibilities of wonderful things that it will surprise you when it happens.

I was first married at 26, divorced at 37. Had two kids with her. Had a few relationships after that, including an on again.off again 4 year relationship that I eventually ended, only to meet the gal who became my second W and great love of my life. Who'd thunk? So, what's ahead? A bigger, better, greater love? Future is not here yet, and totally unwritten. It ain't over till it's over.

Looking forward doesn't hold promise for me the way it used to. I have to stop running now, hurtling myself into the future and face the present, and look at my life as it is today with the man as he is today and the possibility that tomorrow that man will not be any different.

You know that personally I think that if your H doesn't see that he's the problem and makes himself right, that your life and your Self and your happiness is too precious to let him continue to squander and trash. It doesn't matter if you have children together or not. It's better for children not to live in that kind of environment anyway.

And I'm not nearly as free as I thought I would be, as he wields this great new power over me.

Take it back from him. Become stronger. Set and enforce boundaries. You're better than your circumstances, I can tell.