Learning to Trust Myself

[heatherg]

In our culture it's really up to the dad. But that transition and acceptance of the son's manhood rarely happens.

This is an interesting concept. I think I'll pick up the book you're suggesting and read it myself. I am raising a son so it's important for me to at least understand some of these things. Then I'll pass it off to H as a sex book like you suggested.

I realized I had a very hard time treating my wife better than he treated his; I almost felt like I was showing him up.

I have HUGE concerns about what S4 is learning from H on how to treat women. So many of the books refer back to childhood to explain what is happening in your current R....I really worry about it, especially for S4.

When I said that my H doesn't have faith in anyone or anything except his children, that's b/c I blew his faith in me. That's my fault. He used to have faith in me. I hope that I can rebuild trust so that he has faith in me and in us again someday.

If you were merely an ornament to him he'd be happy to go look for a new ornament if you're going to cause him all this trouble, wouldn't he?

It's hard to say. No other woman can be the mother of his children and I think I've conveyed that this man is obsessive about his children. Plus, if he has all these raging doubts about his manhood, certainly he feels insecure about being able to retain another "ornament". I know H loves me. But he doesn't want to respect me. Even pre-A, he didn't want to respect my point of view or make any changes in himself to better our M. I was never afraid of change. I would ask him all the time what he thought I should change, and he would always tell me that he didn't have any complaints with me. That was pre-A of course. Now, I can't do enough.

You're not dealing with the guy he may be deep inside, you're dealing with his behavior.

It helps to think that there are two diffent aspects though. If I reduced my H to his crappy behavior then I wouldn't have much reason to stay. So it helps to separate the behavior from the man inside.

[Burgbud]

I think I'll pick up the book you're suggesting and read it myself. I am raising a son so it's important for me to at least understand some of these things. Then I'll pass it off to H as a sex book like you suggested.

If you do, let me know what you think. W read a little of it when she noticed it on the end table and had some fairly strong reactions. She didn't read much but thought some was great and some really pushed her buttons. I doubt you have the same issues that set her off, but it would be interesting to see. And I definitely would be careful swallowing his philosophy whole. Lots of useful pieces, though.

[NYsurvivor]

it seems wrong to characterize it as abuse when I've been allowing it to happen all along, which sort of implies consent.

It is abusive behavior, and as such it is not defined on the contingency of its being "allowed" to happen.

Do you wanna philosophize about this, or do you want to end the patterns?

I've consented to the treatment for 13 years and now I'm deciding it's abusive and it must stop. There's guilt for changing the rules unbeknownst to my H. I need to figure out a way to tell him the rules have changed so it's not a secret.

This "consent" that you sense is implied is part and parcel of the abused's reasoning to mitigate their abuser's actions. If "abuse" and "abused" and "abuser" are too harsh words for you to be comfortable with, let's use different words... it's the behaviors that are the bottom line. There is no guilt in deciding that enough is enough or that past patterns need to change. Understand where those kinds of thoughts are coming from.

Telling him the rules have changed is called, "setting boundaries".

The second reason that I'm prone to denying is that it feels if I characterize what's going on in my R as abuse it seems encumbant on me to do something, i.e. to leave.

It is incumbent on you to do something if you want a healthier emotional life. Leaving is one option.

Dr. Phil likes to say people treat you the way you allow them to treat you, implying it is your fault if you're being abused.

You're reading that into it. You're not to blame. You're not the one dishing out that behavior. All you did was become susceptible to being abused. If I walk in a dark alley in a crime ridden area late at night, I'm putting myself in a possibly dangerous situation. If I get mugged, I'm not the one who did the mugging. If the police catch the creeps and haul them off to court, the judge wouldn't find me responsible for their mugging me, right? The idea is to not put yourself in a dangerous situation. The idea is to firmly have boundaries and keep to them. The idea is to assess whether or not there's reason to continue in the relationship with that person. The idea is to take care of yourself. You walked into a dark alley and have been there a while getting mugged.

I said "BUT, I would have been more than happy to leave D2 up if you just would have said, I'm really missing her and looking forward to seeing her do you think you could handle her for another hour or so? Instead of just getting mad at me when I told you I was getting her ready for bed. So, hopefully I conveyed what good communication would have been, I'm still learning what constitutes "good" myself. But I know what I would have wanted to hear and I told him.

That's a great step. I'd just modify it by not using what may be construed as blaming or accusatory language so as to preclude H from seeing it as a criticism. So, in your example of: "if you just would have said, I'm really missing her..." I'd have said "I would've liked to hear what you wanted" or some such thing. When you make it about yourself, the other person can't take it personally.

H wanted something and tried to emotionally badger me into doing it.

Hey! I've got an idea... if this helps... instead of calling it "abuse", let's call it "Badgering"!!

When he got home and I realized his treatment wasn't any better, I went to my room and read. Stayed clear of him.

Great! That's exactly what to do. But let him know why you're leaving the room; the consequences of his behavior. "Ouch! I don't like how I'm being treated. Stop it. I'm going to go to bed now, goodnight."

[Chrissy]

"this" (abusive?) is the way H has always been. And after a while, "this" (abusive?) is the way I was back

This behavior is addressed in the book. When both spouses become abusive. I myself could pick out several forms of abuse types my H fell under. The down side I recognized one that I myself engage in on a regular basis. This has just given me one more thing to work on for myself. And if I stop this behavior myself it may lessen his abusive behavior also.

.....it seems wrong to characterize it as abuse when I've been allowing it to happen all along,

Why do you feel it wrong. You were not fully aware before that this was abusive behavior.


if I characterize what's going on in my R as abuse it seems encumbant on me to do something, i.e. to leave

Encumbant to do something yes. But leaving is not the only option the book also addresses this.

He doesn't love me b/c one doesn't treat someone they love the way H treats me.

Your sister wants you to be happy is all. But fact is that people who are abusive ie controlling, manipulative and such usually do this out of love and fear of lose. Family always wants us to be safe and happy and will point out what they see as the easy way for us to achieve that goal.

[heatherg]

Do you wanna philosophize about this, or do you want to end the patterns?

It seems both, lol.

Hey! I've got an idea... if this helps... instead of calling it "abuse", let's call it "Badgering"!!

Good idea, I like this better.

Telling him the rules have changed is called, "setting boundaries".

And changing my behavior toward him as well. It's hard to convey that the rules have changed when I do stupid things as well. Something happened today and I guess since I'm being so much more cognizant of the interaction between H and I, I recognized it as "controlling behavior" on my part. At least I think. I'd like to know what you think. I haven't been very successful with S4 this weekend, he pretty much wants nothing to do with me, it's all about Daddy. He got up this morning and walked past me but wouldn't come and give me a good morning hug when I asked. So, later I tried to ruffle his hair and kiss his neck and he said "that's not what I came over here for" (he was looking for a toy). I told him not to talk like that, he was being very rude. Probably over his head, any suggestions for what to say in a case like this would be very appreciated....perhaps nothing? Again later, I tried to sit next to him on the couch and he moved to the other end. H has been in the same room with us the entire time and never says a word to S4 about the way he is talking to me or reacting to me. Perhaps I am expecting too much of him by wanting him to say something? So then S4 gets off the couch and lays down by H. H never says a word. So, I got visibly angered and said "fine, I guess I'll take a shower then" and I slammed the bathroom door, not off the hinges, but harder than I needed to.
I felt pretty small about acting that way and collected myself while I was in the shower. But, that's not good is it? My expectations of H may be too high. Perhaps I should not be putting the burden on him to correct S4's behavior. Maybe I'm expecting too much from S4? I don't know what to do to my R with him. I really don't. I can guess that it doesn't involve slamming doors though. It really doesn't seem like a relationship with one's child should be so elusive. H says my son adores me and I'm overreacting and simply not accepting that they have a "special bond".

Anyway, my behavior was inappropriate. Not only did it negate the interaction with H yesterday about good communication, but I may have affected my son. Perhaps made him feel guilty or something. Slamming the door had to do with H not intervening, but it may have appeared that it was about S4's rejection. My feelings about this have built up~the lack of guidance from H has happened MANY MANY times before. I remember coming home from work one night and S4 was sitting on H's lap watching a movie and S4 wouldn't acknowledge my greeting when I came in the door, I was like "S4, Mommy said hi". Nothing. H never said a word. WTF?? He still stands by that he did the right thing, that if if were him and S4 had to be prompted by me to say hello that H would be offended.

God, I feel like I'm on an uphill battle and the hill is slicked with ice. What is my problem?!

[anna123]

He got up this morning and walked past me but wouldn't come and give me a good morning hug when I asked. So, later I tried to ruffle his hair and kiss his neck and he said "that's not what I came over here for" (he was looking for a toy). I told him not to talk like that, he was being very rude. Probably over his head, any suggestions for what to say in a case like this would be very appreciated....perhaps nothing?

I'm a tyrant about manners with my children, but have a firm belief that physical affection must not be legislated... giving hugs and kisses isn't manners, it's affection. You can insist on a polite "good morning" acknowledgement, stating that that is how we speak to one another in this home. However, kids should feel like they have control over their personal space... even hugs and kisses. This is an area that is a bit tough for me, because I'm extraordinarily physically affectionate and constantly touching my kids. BUT both my kids are more like their dad and are less physical. They do thrive on the affection, but will sometimes pull back. I may desire that show of love, but it's their right to withhold it. D2 will say to me very politely "Thank you Mummy, but not right now." And I'll immediately back off. That's just my philosophy.

H has been in the same room with us the entire time and never says a word to S4 about the way he is talking to me or reacting to me. Perhaps I am expecting too much of him by wanting him to say something? So then S4 gets off the couch and lays down by H. H never says a word. So, I got visibly angered and said "fine, I guess I'll take a shower then" and I slammed the bathroom door, not off the hinges, but harder than I needed to.

Sounds like all three of you should be expecting more of one another. S4 is smart enough to recognize that his affection is currency in your home... he's certainly smart enough to understand simple courtesies. So, yes, you can expect courtesy.

Your H should want his son to respect his mother and want show a united front to him, so yes you should be able to expect that... it's not too much to ask of your parenting copartner.

And they should expect that you won't lose your temper over who S4 choses to snuggle with.

I remember coming home from work one night and S4 was sitting on H's lap watching a movie and S4 wouldn't acknowledge my greeting when I came in the door, I was like "S4, Mommy said hi". Nothing. H never said a word. WTF??

This is an area where I absolutely believe you should be able to enforce some kind of greeting. Like I said before "In this house, we acknowledge each other. It's good manners." The flip side of this is that it's meaningless if you and H give each other the silent treatment and withhold polite greetings. S4 will pick up on this and recognize a double standard. My H and I still give each other a friendly "Hello" when we see each other, so that the kids have a good model of manners. We have been known to end up smiling and shaking our heads at the phoniness of it all, since we'd really rather say "F You!" sometimes.

I know how desperately you want your husband to stop using S4 against you. It must be incredibly demoralizing. But you feed the fire when you show him how much it hurts you. And you give your son a sense of power over his parents' relationship, and no child should feel that. He may find it somewhat thrilling, but he is also craving boundaries.

Good luck. It sounds like a very stressful and painful way to live. I don't know how I'd handle it, I can just say how I like the THINK I'd handle it.

[NYsurvivor]

he said "that's not what I came over here for" (he was looking for a toy). I told him not to talk like that, he was being very rude.

Takes after his dad, from whom he's unfortunately learning these behaviors. You did well by telling that such talk is unacceptable. If he does it again, discipline him appropriately. Set your boundaries with your son.

I can guess that it doesn't involve slamming doors though.

Good for you. Resolve not to disperse your anger that way. Use your anger to resolve taht you'll stand up for yourself instead.

I remember coming home from work one night and S4 was sitting on H's lap watching a movie and S4 wouldn't acknowledge my greeting when I came in the door, I was like "S4, Mommy said hi". Nothing. H never said a word. WTF?? He still stands by that he did the right thing, that if if were him and S4 had to be prompted by me to say hello that H would be offended.

You see, as an "emotional badger", H only sees how things affect HIM. So he doesn't see that the purposeful training of the son to be social and courteous, especially to his parents and loved ones - which IS a parental duty to so train your children - is paramount to his own personal (and nonsensical BS) observation that HE'D rather be greeted from a 4 year old's heart rather than have the 4 year old prompted to greet him.

BTW, about that supposed preference of his. that he still stands by that he did the right thing... it's pure 100% BS. Your H's argument is:

If son chooses to show lack of courtesy or respect to me, hey, that's OK!

And it came from his BS manufacturing machine - to keep you down, and to keep you in the "wrong".

Now I see that your son is in dire need of getting straightened out before he gets any further cemented in these ways. He's being groomed to fail at relationships himself because he could become the abuser, having that role model he has.

[heatherg]

giving hugs and kisses isn't manners, it's affection.

That's true, it's a good way to view the situation so as to instill respect but not to infringe on my child's rights to display their affection or not to display it.

I worry about why S4 treats H so much differently than he treats me. I worry that he is aware of the power of what he does. That it hurts my feelings, I've told him before that it does, on a child's level, i.e. S4 it hurts mommy's feelings when you move away when I try to sit next to you. I worry that he thinks that is what daddy wants. I worry that I'm reading things into his behavior that aren't there. D2 gravitates toward me, but she has a healthy relationship with both of us. Plenty of times she prefers Daddy and of course I don't get worried. I feel comfortable that she has healthy bonds with both of us. I don't feel that way with S4. If I was equally as paranoid with both of my children, I'd be more inclined to accept that the problem resides in my head. Plus I see that H is very good about guiding S4 with how he treats D2. Affectionate nicknames, saying "we miss our D2, don't we S4?"...things like that. When S4 mistreats D2, H is very good about correcting the behavior. So, it's not like H is just clueless on the inter-relations in the home.

I know how desperately you want your husband to stop using S4 against you. It must be incredibly demoralizing. But you feed the fire when you show him how much it hurts you. And you give your son a sense of power over his parents' relationship, and no child should feel that. He may find it somewhat thrilling, but he is also craving boundaries.

This makes complete sense. I just don't know to handle all of this myself....I'm really struggling, I don't know where to focus my energy...I'm trying to save my M, trying to save my R with my son, trying to change myself for the better, trying to remain a good employee....it's overwhelming.

Thank you for being here, it gives me the objectivity and support that I can't seem to get from the other "adult" who lives in this house. Your perspective is really, really helpful b/c you have young children and you are going through the joys and challenges of parenting yourself. Something stood out in one of your posts on your thread...."there's just something about the way a little boy loves his mommy"......I felt a pang when I read that b/c I really wouldn't know about that....I know my son loves me, of course he does. But I only know that b/c I know it not because I feel that specialness that you're referring to.

[heatherg]

Now I see that your son is in dire need of getting straightened out before he gets any further cemented in these ways. He's being groomed to fail at relationships himself because he could become the abuser, having that role model he has.

This has been a really tough day. I'm sitting here crying as I type because I'm just scattered. I'm still feeling the effects of my crappy behavior today and I just don't know where to focus my energy....I never dreamed that having a marriage and a family would be this kind of difficult, I just never did. These books that I read, refer back to childhood over and over and I think of S4 and D2 and it's hard to believe that their little minds are making connections on interpersonal relationships and that we're failing them. I keep thinking to myself that I barely remember anything before the age of 5, so if I can get this all to turn around, maybe they'll never remember when times were tough.....god willing.

NY, your consistent support means a lot to me.

[Dmsw4]

Heather, what about modeling the proper behavior for S4 by using it with D2 and H. Just start doing it. "Good morning D2, how are you today?" "Good Morning Daddy, D2, tell Daddy good morning" You could even ask S4 to help you teach D2 how to do this. "S4, when D2 wakes up, I want you to tell her good morning and give her a big smile. This will help her learn good manners"

One thing my counselor suggested for us was to ask H's assistance with behavior problems. My middle daughter, 6 years old, seemed to be having problems, trying to get attention, even negative attention, so she suggested this..."H, you know, D6 has been acting up, demanding attention...what do you think we should do about it?" He came up with the idea I had already thought of, but having his involvement, was supposed to help H feel more connected and involved.

You could say, "H, I think we need to work on S4's manners. What do you think we could do to get him to be more courteous?"

I agree that kids learn these behaviors early on, and that you do have time to turn him around.

I have a kid upstairs, it's almost 11:30, who just wants to go to sleep, "Daddy lets me sleep in the chair at Grandma's house. Daddy loves me more than mommy. I just want to go to sleep and Mommy won't let me." "I want my Daddy, Mommy doesn't love me." Silly me, I put her in a bed, how was I to know she'd rather sleep in a chair? So, I am in full re-training mode. It's almost time for school to start up again and I have an 8 year old that has never learned to go to sleep. WTF do I know?

Good night Heather and good luck. Hang in there....