Learning to Trust Myself

[Burgbud]

Telling you that you're feelings are silly because they aren't the same as mine???

That's the crux of the problem right there.

Do you think it would be helpful to reflect on what makes him feel like a man?

Basically, no. Sorry.

That's the thing-he thought he had that security that he never had to worry about me

I think we're talking about a little bit different things here. Let me put it this way...put aside your kiss for a moment, let's say it was the day before that. Was he happy with himself and his life then? Did he seem like a confident person who was attracting positive things into his life? Did he appear to be the kind of person that most of the LBS's on this board are trying to become? I'll bet he didn't. I'll bet he seemed like a guy who was trying to scheme a way to keep his head above water in life. Analysis has worked for him so far; figuring out the angles and playing them. But that doesn't lead to confidence. As life goes on he's realizing, probably subconsciously, that there's more and more in his life that he has to try to analyze and control. So he withdraws and tries to cut his life down to a manageable number of elements he has to stress about. That was me to a T. I didn't set up a schedule for every day, but I was highly reluctant to go anywhere or do anything that had some aspect that could go wrong (traffic, dealing with new people, whatever). The point is, no matter how smart you are and how well you can manipulate events, in the end you can't control a good life to yourself. You have to adopt a mindset and spirit that attracts a good life to yourself. He has to somehow make this leap. The security he needs isn't that he never has to worry about you. He needs to believe in himself enough to think he's a person you wouldn't want to leave. As long as he doesn't have that he'll always worry about you, and he'll always use the techniques he believes he has available (sexual satisfaction, limiting your exposure to interesting people, etc) to try to hold on to you and thus to his status as a man. Put another way, he has to believe he's a man and that you're attracted to the man he is, rather than believe that you're the proof that he's a man and he has to hold on to that at all costs. And unfortunately, I don't think there's much you can do to make him believe he's a man without you. At some point he'll have to realize his life isn't working the way he wants the way it is and he has to grow up, let go, and make himself the person he wants to be.

Maybe the best, or even the only, way you can help move him to where he needs to be is to follow the plan you've already laid out for yourself. Become independent of his control and his tactics. If he eventually really feels that, yet understands that you want to be with him, perhaps he'll give up trying to control what he clearly is not controlling and believe in himself.

There's one other rather extreme measure I'm thinking of bringing up, but I'd better think on it more. I guess for now I'm curious if you think you see what I mean about him not needing outside reassurance of his masculinity, but rather a more profound change within him that he accepts his masculinity without need for outside affirmation. If he bases his masculinity on your assurances, he's still in the same place he currently is. He has to believe he's man enough for you, not that you prove him to be man enough for the world.

Bottom line is I don't think he's hopeless, not by a long shot. But there's a critical spiritual leap he needs to make. Maybe it's called growing up. But it's the point where you realize you can get what you want out of life by giving and trusting others to give back rather than by figuring out techniques by which they'll give you what you want. Maybe that also means you have to scale back a little bit of what you want out of life, but that's okay too. Is that coherent? There's something I really want to say here, for both your benefit and mine. I feel like I don't quite have my finger on expressing it.

I'm telling you I want to be your fantasy and that I'm willing to listen and really get into it and you tell me to figure it out on my own...... How many H's out there would love to hear those words from their W? And I meant them, they weren't just words to try to please him...pleasing him would please me. Isn't that ideal??

Um, yes. Damn.

Okay, I had something else here but realized there's a lot more to this than I first thought. And again, I feel like it's important for me to work through for my own clarity. If I don't update this post within an hour, I'll do it tomorrow.

[anna123]

I'm telling you I want to be your fantasy and that I'm willing to listen and really get into it and you tell me to figure it out on my own......

Wow Heather. This guy is determined to cut off his nose to spite his face (to spout cliches). At first I read that and thought "My GOD that sounds familiar!" but realized that whenever I told my H I wanted to be his fantasy, he'd just look uncomfortable and say "But I really don't HAVE any fantasies!" <sigh>

But I think it's very different with your H because it sounds like he has very well-thought out fantasies but doesn't want to relinquish ANY control to you. He also may not want to be vulnerable to you.

So be your OWN fantasy!!!

[heatherg]

H thinks I blew it when he tried to tell me likes to look at beautiful women and I didn't react well. So, therefore, he can't talk to me about anymore. I guess he just doesn't get it that *I* want to be his fantasy. Not partake in his fantasy about other women. I know he thinks a threesome would be totally hot. The idea makes my head spin around. How's that for a visual, lol? It really does though. How would he feel if I indicated I'd like a threesome with another guy?? I think we all know how that would go over.

In an earlier post, I said I was having trouble pinning down H's "emotionally abusive" behavior in any certain terms. Well, maybe now that I'm actually aware and documenting and remembering, I'll pick up on it more. Here's the most recent example:
H is on his way home from northern VA and it's 8:30pm and he hasn't called to talk to the kids yet. D2 usually goes to bed between 8:30-9:00. So, I call H and tell him I called so he could talk to the kids b/c I'm getting D2 ready for bed. He says "*Whaaat?*" Sort of whiney, sort of demanding and I get a feeling of dread. He said "I thought you were going to leave her up?". I said "I don't know why you would think that, we didn't discuss it, you never said anything. How far out are you?" I'm keeping calm but firm. He says "About an hour". I said, "Well, I'll probably go ahead and put her to bed then b/c that puts us at 9:30" He says "I know.....you left her up the first couple weeks....you and the kids were probably out so it's ok to leave her up then " (I left D2 up the first weekend H came home b/c I went to karate that night. I put her to bed last week and this is the 3rd week he's come home). So, he's sounding like a child who's not getting his way now. I let him talk to D2 and then back to me. I say "how's traffic?" He says "fine". Nothing else. I say "ok, here's S4. He talks to S4 for a while and I hear S4 say "bye daddy". Then I hear him say "but my hand's getting really tired." A couple seconds later I hear him repeat the same sentence. Finally he says "ok daddy bye. Here mommy" and he hands me the phone. I don't know if he was trying to make S4 feel guilty b/c he didn't want to talk anymore....I asked H sork of jokingly, "geez H, laugh, what were you saying to him, he kept tellin ya his hand was getting sore...." H sounded irritated and said "I was just telling him how long an hour is". I said "Oh. How late were you up last night getting surprises?" He said "I don't know". I said "ok, well I'll see ya in a little bit".
We hung up.

Those short mean sounding answers from someone whose been nothing but friendly for the last two weeks. Until he doesn't get his way. He's even called me a couple times during the day just to tell me something. Like this morning he called to tell me the guy was coming to cut the grass tomorrow and he'd leave the number for me if I had any questions. He could have told me that tonight when he got home. Then he called me again later to ask me if his parents were back from their vacation b/c he was going to call them and see if they wanted to meet for lunch tomorrow but wanted to check with me first. Very nice. But as soon as something doesn't go how he wants it to go.....

I could have left D2 up. Staying up until 9:30 won't end the world, she stays up that late or later if we go anywhere in the evenings. But I'm doing all the housework and parenting during the week plus working full time. Come Friday night, I'm beat. And D2 gets tired when it's her bed time. I reallly enjoy a little downtime in the evenings.

Do you think I should have left her up?

[SAhDaddy]

H thinks I blew it when he tried to tell me likes to look at beautiful women and I didn't react well. So, therefore, he can't talk to me about anymore. I guess he just doesn't get it that *I* want to be his fantasy.

Gosh, you and my wife have the same writers. Pornography played some roll in our relationship too. My wife actually enjoyed it from time to time and I compromised and obtained the stuff that she liked. But on many occasions, I began to rely on it too often and I heard the "I want to be your fantasy" speech.

God, how I wished I would have paid more attention to that now.

I've read your earlier posts and I wanted to point out that, at least for me, videos and such were just enhancements to our lovemaking, not the main show. My wife often used 'marital aids' (ha) to enhance her own pleasure and I always enjoyed that she was finding ways to get into our lovemaking more.

Now that my wife has fallen in love with someone else, I see that my interest in videos and such played not the largest roll, but a significant roll in her disappointment in me. Believe me, it wasn't worth it.

I'd like to point out too that I don't think that men like to look at this stuff not because they find the other women prettier, or sexier or more voluptuous, but because they are fascinated by the mystery. It is the 'piece of strange' quotient.

I know that probably doesn't make you feel better, but perhaps it may clarify some things.

[Chrissy]

Heather
Even the instances where he acts in the heat of the moment, like putting his hands on me are just a means to an end, with the end being to show me that I cannot win. If I am shown I cannot win, I will stop trying. I could be so full of it, so far off base, but this is my perspective.

Heather you have already identified his abusive behavior in this post
to show me that I cannot win. If I am shown I cannot win, I will stop trying.
This is emotional abuse
like putting his hands on me are just a means to an end,
This is physical abuse.
And if you are right it is abuse that is thought out premeditated and dangerous.

I am glad you are reading the book. I myself am still in the reading stages.

Hope you have a good weekend

[heatherg]

Chrissy~
The hard part for me that I'm still trying to figure out is whether or not there is a consistent pattern of abuse. The author says everyone is guilty of employing abusive tactics now and then. I'm also trying to figure out my role in what's happening and if what happens is instigated by me.

For example:
Last night H was not much nicer when he got home than he had been on the phone. He didn't get home until about 10pm and he had toys/surprises for S4. One of the surprises was a virtual sword video game. So, H proceeds to take it out of the box and is looking for batteries. I help him look, but we can't find any AAs. So he says he's going out to buy some! I looked at him like he was crazy and said "can't it wait until tomorrow, it's late." He said it would only take five minutes. So, he gets back, they play, S4 doesn't get into bed until 11pm. And he's crying and acting dramatically over a rug burn he apparently got on his chest while him and Daddy were playing. Delayed reaction I guess. So, H puts aloe on it and that makes the crying worse and I look at H and say accusingly "he's just overtired, it's really late". Now, we both know H kept S4 up so he gets defensive when I say that and tells me to shut up. He was in the hallway so I don't think S4 heard. I said "Nice, thanks".

So, I'm left wondering if I didn't bring on the "shut up" by accusingly saying that it was late. I would have said that even if we had been out though and just got home, but my tone probably would have been different in that case.
All of this seems so absolutely petty, but whatever goes on in our R, it is soooo subtle that I have to actually get into the conversation in order to convey what happens......plus I am super paranoid that I will give only my side of things, so I figure if I relay what both sides say I don't need to feel like the feedback I get is because of the way I've presented it. I'm paranoid aren't I?! Maybe I'm the one who starts everything and I just don't like the way it ends up. Maybe I'm so dysfunctional that I can't even see it and no one would react positively to the things I say.

Overall, my take, right or wrong, is that most dads wouldn't keep their four year olds up until 11pm to play a video game. And if they insisted it would like cause an argument with the mother. So, with that being said I don't think I overreacted. I simply asked if it could wait until tomorrow and then pointed out the obvious consequence of H getting his way when S4 was overtired.

I did't deserve a shut up because it never should have got that far, H should have put his child to bed like a responsible parent instead of treating him like a best friend.

Am I delusional?

[heatherg]

Hey Bud, I really appreciated you bareing so much of your soul in order to try to give me a better understanding of my H.

I guess for now I'm curious if you think you see what I mean about him not needing outside reassurance of his masculinity, but rather a more profound change within him that he accepts his masculinity without need for outside affirmation.

Yes, I think I understand. But it seems that it would depend on the reason for not feeling like a man. Maybe lack of self confidence, so maybe pointing out that OTHER people think he's great, which would honestly be hard to find an example of, would be a good way of bolstering the self confidence which in turn would make him feel better about himself and more manly???

But there's a critical spiritual leap he needs to make. Maybe it's called growing up.

I think you're right. Can I tell him that, lol???

Maybe that also means you have to scale back a little bit of what you want out of life

Or maybe just have faith that good things happen to those who......fill in the blank. Good returns good, I'm very humanistic. It's the basis for human interaction. I'm not religious, but you've still gotta have faith. My H doesn't have faith in anything or anyone except his children. I don't know what he's going to do when they get lives of their own. Right now, he actually identifies himself with them, not me. His manlihood is being what he thinks is a great father. I'm just an ornament.

[NYsurvivor]

The author also said that most abusers don't have a clue what they are doing to their partner and that usually they do not do it on purpose, it's usually a result of having been abused themself as a child. This is where I think H already differs from the type of person the author is talking about.

"usually" doesn't mean "always". From many of your accounts, there is an abuse pattern, H uses different methods, different times, and they all add up. I get the sense that you're looking at why he's not an abuser, and perhaps that stems from your feelings that you're responsible for his behavior, or denial, because that comes through on your posts too.

Pages 10 and 95 of the "emotionally abusive" book states that there is a tendency for the abused to make excuses for the abusive partner's behavior and/or blame themselves.

I feel like in the big picture, the things he does are in fact calculated.

That's worse than someone who doesn't realize what they're doing, isn't it?

The hard part for me that I'm still trying to figure out is whether or not there is a consistent pattern of abuse. ... So, I'm left wondering if I didn't bring on the "shut up" by accusingly saying that it was late.

Again, I repeat my first statement above. You're blaming yourself for his actions, but only he's responsible for his actions. He could've replied any number of ways, from "I feel you're holding me responsible, I don't think I am though" to "I'm sorry. I did keep him up too late." But "shut up"... what is that? That's control, Heather. It's dismissive and dominating.

Bottom line is, whether he does it knowingly or not, it constitutes a fair amount of abusive behavior. You were surprised when you read your therapist's list of how things go in a non-abusive relationship. You thought that other relationships are pretty much like yours?

Try this. As you read through the book, pretend that H and you are another couple, so that you can look at the people more objectively.

[Burgbud]

Maybe lack of self confidence, so maybe pointing out that OTHER people think he's great, which would honestly be hard to find an example of, would be a good way of bolstering the self confidence which in turn would make him feel better about himself and more manly???

I really appreciate how hard you're trying for him. But pointing out that OTHER people think he's great is still outside affirmation. And he doesn't have to think he's great. He has to think (and believe) he's a man. He thinks that now but he doesn't believe it. Look how childishly he's acting. He hasn't grown up. I didn't grow up until I was 37 and my wife "left" me. I was basically responsible and I didn't do crazy stuff but I wasn't a grown up.

I'll bet you've heard of that stuff where a bunch of guys go out in a teepee and beat drums all night? That's more what I'm talking about, goofy as it sounds. Some cultures have done a good job of transitioning boys into manhood with appropriate and meaningful rituals. Sort of the idea of a bar mitzvah, but I don't think boys today believe they're men at 13. In our culture it's really up to the dad. But that transition and acceptance of the son's manhood rarely happens. One of Deida's bits is "Live as if your father was dead". If you had asked me what influence my father had in my life I would have said almost none because I've always been very independent. But guess what? The idea of "live as if your father was dead" was liberating to me to an extent that gave the lie to the idea he had little influence in my life. I realized I had a very hard time treating my wife better than he treated his; I almost felt like I was showing him up. Or that he'd think I was some wussified, sensitive new-age man if I was openly affectionate and put her first. He didn't treat my mom too badly but he has the same "Get over it" style, along with the implied "because you're incompetent if you don't", that I had. Very little affection between them. You get the picture.

Speaking of Deida, perhaps The Way of the Superior Man would have a chance of getting through to him. You could tell him it's a sex book, which it partly is.

My H doesn't have faith in anything or anyone except his children.

It's really good that you recognize this. You should also recognize that as long as this is true he won't significantly change.

His manlihood is being what he thinks is a great father. I'm just an ornament.

I can almost guarantee that's not true. He takes you for granted and treats you like an ornament but you still define his manhood. If you were merely an ornament to him he'd be happy to go look for a new ornament if you're going to cause him all this trouble, wouldn't he?

In one of your posts you talked about how "abuse" is such a loaded word. I completely agree. That words has been hurled at me and I hurled it right back at W. She's even said our kids are abusive to her. Perhaps that's true if you define the word right, but there's such an overpowering link between "abuse" and "he beats the [censored] out of her" that using the word is troublesome. A lot of my sharing the similarity between how H is and how I was is an attempt to show you that H is probably not a cold, warped abuser down in his core who just wants to use and discard people to accomplish his own twisted ends.

But NYS brings up a lot of good points and I don't want to mislead you. You're not dealing with the guy he may be deep inside, you're dealing with his behavior. Don't let him continue to hurt you while you search for his inner man. I know you love him and you want to give him every chance. W was the same. But she took it until she broke and believed there was no chance we could ever be together. That's no better for a M than anything you might need to do at this point.

[heatherg]

I get the sense that you're looking at why he's not an abuser, and perhaps that stems from your feelings that you're responsible for his behavior, or denial, because that comes through on your posts too.

I can see where you're coming from and I think there are a couple of reasons for this. First, "this" (abusive?) is the way H has always been. And after a while, "this" (abusive?) is the way I was back. I've told H to shut up before, although I don't think ever when we weren't in the middle of a heated fight....but my point is that now that I'm recognizing the behavior for what it is and trying to stop it immediately on my behalf and eventually on his.....it seems wrong to characterize it as abuse when I've been allowing it to happen all along, which sort of implies consent. So, I've consented to the treatment for 13 years and now I'm deciding it's abusive and it must stop. There's guilt for changing the rules unbeknownst to my H. I need to figure out a way to tell him the rules have changed so it's not a secret.
The second reason that I'm prone to denying is that it feels if I characterize what's going on in my R as abuse it seems encumbant on me to do something, i.e. to leave. A woman who stays in an abusive R and allows a man to treat her this way....well, there are insinuations. For instance Dr. Phil likes to say people treat you the way you allow them to treat you, implying it is your fault if you're being abused. And if you want to stop it, then you have no other choice but to put your foot down and in no uncertain terms tell the abuser that you're not putting up with it anymore. I lose self respect by staying and I lose the respect of others who know what's going on, which is family and a couple close friends. My sister especially loves to ask me why I still want to be with a man who doesn't love me. He doesn't love me b/c one doesn't treat someone they love the way H treats me. She tells me I will be so much happier someday if I would just leave. I'm not convinced b/c I know H does love me and Bud has been doing a great job of conveying that the man inside can be much different than the behavior he's displaying. I want to keep the man but change the behavior, so I don't WANT to leave.

Does that make sense? I'm really new at so many of these realizations and I haven't put them all together in my head yet.

Yesterday, H mentioned me not leaving D2 up Friday night. I said "Doing all the parenting and everything by myself all week is really a lot and by the time Friday night rolls around I'm exhausted." He said, "Yeah, I know, it is a lot". I said "BUT, I would have been more than happy to leave D2 up if you just would have said, I'm really missing her and looking forward to seeing her do you think you could handle her for another hour or so? Instead of just getting mad at me when I told you I was getting her ready for bed.
So, hopefully I conveyed what good communication would have been, I'm still learning what constitutes "good" myself. But I know what I would have wanted to hear and I told him. It will be a learning process. Learning to respond and address one another in a different way.
All in all, I think it was a pretty successful endeavor. H wanted something and tried to emotionally badger me into doing it. I held my ground and didn't give in, but never got angry. When he got home and I realized his treatment wasn't any better, I went to my room and read. Stayed clear of him. I came out and said I was tired and was going to bed and I'd see him in the morning. Kept it upbeat like I wasn't at all affected by his mood. Then, when things cooled down and he was receptive to me, he brought it up. I told him how he could have handled it to get what he wanted from me.

That's worse than someone who doesn't realize what they're doing, isn't it?

Yes, it is worse, I meant to convey that in my post but didn't.

You were surprised when you read your therapist's list of how things go in a non-abusive relationship. You thought that other relationships are pretty much like yours?

I guess I must have. I never really spent too much time considering how others interact. I guess I thought other couples had the same power struggles we did.

BTW, yesterday H was much more friendly. In fact, he held the car door open for me which he hasn't done since pre-A. It was one of the few respectful gestures he has made directly toward me in a year. I made sure to say thank you.