I snooped. And what I found was not very reassuring, yet not disastrous either. I found yet more porn in W's stash of sexual contrivances. The prior stuff was "how-to" stuff, the new stuff focuses on women: nude yoga, nude erotic yoga, a tantra one that seems more for titilation than true learning. I called a few DBers about it, and receive the input that she's likely confused, that this is more MLC stuff, and that its better she's exploring alone than w/others.
I had S5 Fri night, and W went out and stayed out until noon Sat. I dropped S5 off at 2pm Sat and had a 1.5 hr talk with her. First I asked her about her porn generally in the guise of checking on S5's exposure to such stuff. She flat out denied having anything - so she lied.
When I asked how her Fri outing was, she downplayed, saying she had a nice time with her 'students.' She calls them her students, yet goes off to Hawaii w/one and parties with them nearly every week. I just don't get why she bothers to lie or downplay? She made a point to note that one 20something student with a wild streak (the one whose project I declined to work on with W this month) had brought her boyfriend (I had asked W if she was pursuing an R with this student in June).
I also peaked into her journal and saw that she has me summarized into two themes: 1) I'm manipulative (when I've tried to be nice and if she senses pursuit). 2) I'm controlling (all of my backslides, as well as my boundary-setting for her requests of me). 3) I wanted her to be weak, so that I could be her Hero, and I wanted her parents to be her Villains, so that I could save her over and over. (sounds like IC interpretive nonsense, as the ILs were exhausting and impossible. There was nothing rewarding about their neg role in our M. I would have been so pleased to see them be appropriate).
The journal was focused on negative things about the R, her anger toward me, with positive events described as mere absence of negativity. There was a lot of venting, little/no introspection/self work. No mention of OP or sexuality disclosures.
Is it possible that one can truly forget or ignore so many positives and successfully filter in and save only the negative? Will she ever recall or admit my positives?
In our convo, W said "Why don't you just find SO else? Why don't you just move on?" I said, "I'm not staying put merely b/c of my promise. My heart is telling me I'm not ready." I talked about her, the postives I see in her. I noted how I saw her as strong, said that she was still the most beautiful woman for me. I worked in some language such as, "If I ever get another chance with you, I'll show you how good it feels to be fully loved." In the convo I noted that I was telling her such things not to win her back but just to explain things and work them out. Eerily, W mentioned that she had thought of moving away/applying elsewhere. I noted that I hoped she didnt' do that.
I asked her for the two biggest reasons for her choosing D. She summarized with feeling trapped (blamed me for this - my control) and with feeling a lack of love (I was not filling her love bank - I think this was the primary reason, the former would have been met in part pursuing this other.) INn the journal, she had called my behavior and perspective over the past year 'self-centered' and noted that she despised my sadness following our S/Din her journal . In our convo, I noted that I have found the key to loving/caring for others well - loving and caring for me first. I noted, "If I care for myself well, I will be that much better able to love and meet my partners needs. I'm not sitting aroung feeling sorry for myself. I'm developing myself into a better man, and I'll pass that on to S5."
We shared a lighthearted moment when I commented that she was the most beautiful woman in the gym to me the other day "until you frowned at me." She said, "I didn't frown at you,did I?" When I said yes, she stated, "It's just b/c I like to work out intensely."
Yes I snooped, and I disrespected her privacy by doing so. I must stop that. Thru all this, I am discouraged.
I've heard no acknowledgement from her of my changes, just silence.
Sounds like she may be offsetting any guilt by still blaming you for everything.
Also seems like a lot of MLC behavior going on yet.
How would she react if you managed to 'imply' there was s/o else? I've been reading about the seduction/jealousy role in winning their heart back, but I still feel it may be too close to severing the tie by allowing them to think we have 'moved' on. I'm not sold on the 'seduction' part, it seems so manipulative!
Wonder where Wes is at between his ex and the new ow?
I also have heard that 'lack of love' before as a reason. But now to show any of that is pursuit! Are there any other ways to fill her love bank w/o pursuing?
Let's see what I have here in my kit bag. Hmmmm...
You said
Quote: Thru all this, I am discouraged.
So I choose to remind you that
Quote: I noted that I have found the key to loving/caring for others well - loving and caring for me first. I noted, "If I care for myself well, I will be that much better able to love and meet my partners needs. I'm not sitting aroung feeling sorry for myself. I'm developing myself into a better man, and I'll pass that on to S5."
So you snooped and didn't like what you found. Anyone out there have a link to the post where the LBS snooped and found the WAS writing about their epiphany and plans to seek reconciliation? Please post the links if you have 'em.
It's a roller coaster. W is not snapping at you as she once did, she's not trying to damage your R with S5, in fact, she seems to be working with you on a lot his best interest. You are able to have decent convos. A lot of us aren't able to do even that.
Put this in the long term perspective. How did things look last winter, when you had only your faith and determination, and no signs of reconsideration or even mature parenting from W? The road ahead may be long, but you have come a good distance, personally and in your R.
Thanks,
K
My sitch More importantly, Light A Million Candles
Quote: I've been reading about the seduction/jealousy role in winning their heart back, but I still feel it may be too close to severing the tie by allowing them to think we have 'moved' on. I'm not sold on the 'seduction' part, it seems so manipulative!
I didn't understand what do you meant by it being too close to the severing of the R, T. Do you mean that its better to look like I've moved on, and to work in the seduction/jealousy stuff later?
K wrote:
Quote: W is not snapping at you as she once did, she's not trying to damage your R with S5, in fact, she seems to be working with you on a lot his best interest. You are able to have decent convos. Put this in the long term perspective. How did things look last winter, when you had only your faith and determination, and no signs of reconsideration or even mature parenting from W? The road ahead may be long, but you have come a good distance, personally and in your R.
K, I teared up reading your post. Yes, there have been improvements. And W's MLC behavior at this time of year mirrors similar beh in prior summers. There have been improvements in the sitch and I need to remind myself of that. I've also had nice growth since then. Thanks for that reminder to look at the big picture.
In reading your post today, I was reminded of the MANY times I also chose to "snoop"... In doing so, I realized that I was only hurting myself by snooping. In my sitch, I found that "snooping around" became addictive and highly destructive as I also found things that were not reassuring. The negative comments that your W wrote about in her journal are a reflection of the hurt and pain she is experiencing right now... Her accusations are NOT a reflection of you. But, the more you feel the need to convince her that she is undervaluing the good things in your marriage, the more she will most likely pull away from you and even blame you.
IMHO... the comment you made to your W: "If I ever get another chance with you, I'll show you how good it feels to be fully loved", may be too much for her to hear right now. You had mentioned that she had written in her journal that she saw you as "manipulative", especially if she senses pursuit. When you made that comment to your W, she seemed to respond with telling you that she was thinking about moving away and applying for a job elsewhere. She seems to still be at the point in her life where the more pressure she feels, the more she will want to flee. IMHO, you should try not to insist on talks about your relationship with her. I think it is important for you to try to devise a plan to deal with your insecurites without pushing your W in any way. Talk with family, friends, people on the BB, etc. about what is happening in regards to feelings about the divorce, not your W. I think that all questions and issues that deal with your marriage should be put on hold until she wants to talk about them.
As I was the one eager to hold my marriage together, I often engaged in behavior that pushed my H farther away. I think that it is human nature to want to escape when someone is feeling coerced or pressured. My H's anger seemed to be the only emotion he was feeling with my constant persistence to convince him to stay committed to our marriage. Unfortunately, this prevented him from having feelings of sadness, grief, guilt, remorse, or other emotions that would have helped me. I know that there was a time I would have given ANYTHING to be able to spend the rest of my life explaining the depth of my feelings to my H. Although I am beginning to see our problems more clearly, my H is not interested in working on our marriage...
Gabriel... I hope that my post has not offended you in any way as that is not my intention at all... The fact that you care so much about your relationship with your W means you have good values and you are a great person! I have so much respect for you... I respect you for the way you have valued your marriage and honored your commitment to your W. Take good care of yourself... -KIM
Here's what I've been reading and trying to decipher:
Quote: Don’t let them think they are the only show in town. It’s absolutely amazing just how much a little rivalry can stir up a person’s hot-blooded romantic desire for you.
There are two very good reasons to keep yourself in circulation. First if you’re to be fully appreciated by the one you want, then they will have to feel lucky to get you. It is, therefore, necessary to create the illusion that your affections could be lost to someone else.
Second, as you interact with others, your own emotional need for companionship will be somewhat satisfied. This will make you a stronger and more confident person in other aspects of your life, including your relationship with the one you want. In turn, this will help you to radiate a spirit of confidence and independence.
My problem w/this: If we act 'as if' we are moving on, will they get angry and we will just be farther away, not closer to a new R?
I'm not saying if this will work w/your W since you radiate the confidence already and she may be throwing the statement out to you about s/o else just to see if there is.
Quote: In my sitch, I found that "snooping around" became addictive and highly destructive as I also found things that were not reassuring. The negative comments that your W wrote about in her journal are a reflection of the hurt and pain she is experiencing right now...the more you feel the need to convince her that she is undervaluing the good things in your marriage, the more she will most likely pull away from you and even blame you.
Very good, Kim. I hear your strong caution against snooping and agree that its an endless cycle with only momentary relief. And I appreciate the reminder about her pain.
Quote: she had written in her journal that she saw you as "manipulative", especially if she senses pursuit. When you made that comment to your W, she seemed to respond with telling you that she was thinking about moving away and applying for a job elsewhere. She [is]at the point in her life where the more pressure she feels, the more she will want to flee... you should try not to insist on talks about your relationship with her.
Yeah, I think now I let it go and wait for her to bring it up. I distance in terms of the R.
Quote: I think that all questions and issues that deal with your marriage should be put on hold until she wants to talk about them.
This point is huge. I agree that this work should likely wait til she's ready to commit to trying.
Kim, I didn't take offense and appreciate your input immensely! You are a sweetheart for caring.
T wrote:
Quote: Don’t let them think they are the only show in town. It’s absolutely amazing just how much a little rivalry can stir up a person’s hot-blooded romantic desire for you.
Brilliant reading, T! Where are you getting this? Is this DR or elsewhere? If DR, I need to review the ol' manual! So, the reasons for the appearance of being in circulation: 1)Increased Appreciation and 2) Practice of R skills.
Very good! In my sitch, W had me labeled as a womanizer or with a wandering eye, and my sitting tight for 9 months has hopefully debunked most of that. Now she journals flabbergasted about my being 'abstinant' almost with frustration, as if she doesn't know what to do about it. I think it may be turning into a point of frustration with her, and seeing me out with others (or at least this impression) may just spark some interest.
Actually, it's from one of the e-books circulating the internet! I decided to re read it as another viewpoint than dr but the principles are similar.
After reading it last nite, I figured I may take this approach to sorta clear the air from my R talks w/ex. I'm hinting around that there may be s/t new going on in my life and telling some people we mutually know that I needed the info for closure. I'll keep you posted! T
I will only reiterate what the others here have said. It seems you feel this necessity to apply pressure to convince her she is wrong and how wonderful you are and good the R can be. And as you well know, this IS not productive.
But when the others tell you to stop, back off and do not talk about the R, you grudgingly agree, but I can almost here you saying, "ok, ok, but what do they know, I know my W better than anyone and I know if I just keep at her she will turn around and I will get a result." And we all know it will NOT be the result you desire.
You are an intelligent, articulate individual in good health with many positives in your life, quit focusing on the negatives and focus on you and life and S5.
Thanks for the wakeup call, Bruce. No, I do agree that pursuing is not going to help, after thinking about what I discovered. W is fully in MLC mode, and her travels thru that will be long.
I think what you're noticiing and that I'm feeling is that I'm getting more anxious about the sitch, and perhaps more desparate - and I'm focusing way too much on her and not enough on myself.
The external GAL stuff is going great - exercise & diet, work, outings. But in my head, I have a lot of gunk from the M problems and this rejection, and I decided today to pursue a new counselor to begin my own individual work again. Its time to dig a bit deeper into myself to see what needs to be healed further after the hurt of the R.
So, the reasons for the appearance of being in circulation: 1)Increased Appreciation and 2) Practice of R skills. 
almost with frustration, as if she doesn't know what to do about it. I think it may be turning into a point of frustration with her, and seeing me out with others (or at least this impression) may just spark some interest.