Quote: I think there is a fair amount of that behavior because if our s/ex-s relaxed and went with the flow they might find themselves loving and "giving in".
Excellent point. I see her backing off from the R convos, tho I still think some work got accomplished, and I made an important clarification - that I still care for her.
Quote: Just keep that PMA up at any cost.
Will do, Wes. I'm heading out for a monster workout in a few min to light it up.
UD wrote:
Quote: She may try to raise hers by doing something that she feels would raise her PMA but the emptiness within her keeps getting in the way. This may actually make her angry at herself, you, S5, the world. I have experienced this myself in my 2-year ordeal. The only solution is to detach and focus on you and S5 (DBing basics really). There is a spiritual void in your W, same as mine. They are lost souls, they do not understand themselves, let alone understand anything outside of them. And if they do not know who they are, there is little chance for us to know who they are now.
Awesome, UD. This really structured the current sitch for me.
Thanks guys. I reviewed my own pattern and realized that I was staying up too late watching taped episodes ...don't laugh, this was a suggestion from a psychologist friend, "The Courtship of Eddie's Father." I kept telling myself, 'Yeah, but his wife died. Mines alive strutting around in a see-through blouse that I would have killed to have her wear around me in the M." 1-2 beers/night isn't helping the PMA either. Back to natural sleepiness and better PMA in the morning/day, hopefully.
Still no coffee, tho!
Good day overall. Absolutely no contact w/ W (I'll call later tonight to wish S5 goodnight). Set up new furniture in private practice and saw new clients. Moneys not a cure for much, but being productive sure helps the PMA.
Cool beans! Had a great workout, must have sweated off at least a couple lbs of water. Feels good to get on the bench and lift more than those young whippersnappers. Not that I'm comparing myself or anything...
Decided to treat myself to a bookstore visit, and soup and sandwich at a local shop, and got a call from another friend offering me a place on a sizable research opportunity. Very nice for my PMA to have this to turnaround.
Afterwards, I called the house to talk to S5, and had a nice positive convo with him. Then I asked to talk to W, who had begun to snap at S5, and I checked in with her about Friday eve, noting that I could pickup S5 and a playmate to make life easier for her. She noted that was nice, and commented that she would be at his Art Camp anyway as he would be showing off his portfolio of art work in a show for the parents. She invited me, and noted that she was breaking away from her young friends to attend herself. W commented that she would be going out with her student/friend and a married FF to celebrate the completion of a project.
We talked further, and I noted softly and w/ concern "W, you sound tired." She opened up about concerns, workload, and being taken advantage of a bit by another mother in terms of childcare swapping. I think I validated and listened well. She sounded more positive after 10 min of this, and asked about me. I briefly shared how stoked I was to set up furniture in the practice office, and how my first clients showed, noting how two pursued my services after seeing me interviewed on television. She congratulated me on these happenings and I thanked her for doing so. It felt okay to do so, as I was already high as a kite, and didn't feel a need for her to take care of me. It should have been obvious that I was pumped.
Anyway, I'm staying up and hopefully that ol' rascally rollercoaster will follow my PMA.
Had a semi-funny realization last night, actually a painful lesson, that my body's adjusted to little/no caffeine. I had a soda w/ a late dinner last night (~8:30pm), and could not fall asleep. Started thinking about W, worrying about her and possible OM, then connected my restlessness to the beverage, and was okay.
Called W regarding pickup time for S5 at other carpool home, and she was back to grumpy self again: "Don't you have (other mom's) number?!" She noted feeling taken advantage of by this other mom, but reality is that she's choosing to spend send S5 away during the day to spend time w/ friends and do extra things at work, so at my core, I have little sympathy for her.
Last night, I did act 'as-if' and validated her frustration. But my stance has shifted from enabling or being part of her job/audience over family choices, and letting her make those choices, pay the prices, and face the consequences. I'm not sure if it'll relate at all to any comparisons by her to how is was in the M or how it might be if we reunited. Just keeping my thoughts to myself, and staying as pleasant as I can to her.
MLC-WASs make a series of terrible choices (starting of course with walking away from marriages without attempting to fix the problem - sort of like pushing one's car off a cliff just because the tires are worn out). My WAW has spent so much money in such a wasteful fashion, it could easily have sufficed to run a small country like Haiti for the past two years. So, it would be a miscalculation to expect any kind of responsible behavior on their part.
It is very likely that your W's recent crotchetiness is due to reasons not related to you, but several reality checks (financial, work-related, mothering/single-parenting related) that she has had to face. I have often wondered if I am validating enough and all that. The most difficult line to draw is when to validate. It is good to do so when you feel that the W is indeed stressed amd venting for reasons beyond her control. On the other hand, it is so much more difficult when the W is venting when things are not going well as a direct consequence of some really patently irrational and stupid decisions on her part. In the latter situation, the best one can do is what you did precisely, i.e. just keep our mouths shut. You are doing a much better job than I was when my W was in the anger/the-world-sucks phase.
Another point to note is this and it can be very tricky:
MY WAW appears to get crotchety and uppity with me for two opposing reasons: 1. If my PMA is too low she starts drawing herself up into a power-positive status and looking down on me. 2. If my PMA is too high she tries to ratchet hers up, gets annoyed that she cant (there is depression there for sure) and then gets crotchety because she is a bit jealous of my PMA. So, like Goldilocks, it is important to maintain the PMA just right. As a rule of thumb, what works for me is to keep it one notch higher than hers. Seems kind of crazy doesn't it, but since the WASs are not operating with all their marbles intact, the LBS has to use unusual tactics to keep the ship afloat.
Gabriel: RE your annoyance with W on care of S5:
I feel like my W has been dropping the ball on caring for D3 as well lately. My D3 is the MOST important thing in this god-awful mess. And I will get run over by a locomotive before I drop the ball on her. Our MLC-WAWs are so lost right now they are incapable of keeping their heads screwed on straight and handling the kids. MLC-WAWs I think are better at handling the kid front than MLC-WAHs (as in dejavu's case for example) but even so, they are still performing sub-par. You are doing well to recognize this and it really hurts Gabe. I know this from experience. It takes even greater strength to forgive and be compassionate towards the MLC-WASs when there are kids involved. Because now there are two big issues that we need to get over :1) How could you do this to me? , 2) How can you possibly do this to the kid??? The second one I find is so much harder to resolve in my heart than the first. But we need to find that strength somewhere because otherwise there will be nobody to look out for the kids. This has been a very difficult issue for me over the past couple of years and it keeps resurfacing all the time.
UD
The 3 laws of DBing:
1. PMA is critical to DBing.
2. Since drop in WAW's PMA leads to drop in LBS's PMA and vice-versa detachment is critical.
3. Validate to raise WAW's PMA and GAL to raise LBS's.
Hey, I've noticed that "I'm doing soo much better than you" 'tude from her when I'm feeling low. And I do see the struggle to one-up me with the PMA if I'm riding high. Your excellent view on PMA has helped me to take a different view of W's behavior in the past week and currently. It's as if the WAS doesn't get that this R is not a zero sum game. That both people can 'win' with high PMA and feeling fed. That competition does not work.
I agree that forgiving the WAS for the hurt caused our child(ren) is hardest. My realization on this, tho, is that as long as I love myself well, and consequently have solid PMA, I can keep S5 'fed' by enveloping his young life with my stability and my great love for him.
I'm working hard at pushing my PMA to the max. Just need to figure out this sleep issue. I was running on an outdoor track late at night to exhaust myself in the winter/spring, but at this time of year, I'll need to be faster than the mosquitoes.
You have been become a brilliant DBer in your third year, UD.
Coming from you that was a compliment indeed. Believe me, I was a slow learner. I was pathetic for a long time but I read incessantly and reflected and suffered through my stupidity for a long time before peace and acceptance descended on me. I was constantly looking for a "why" answer for a long time. I thought I could control this runaway train. Finally I realized that there was just no "why" answer, doo-doo just happens and there was precious little I could do about it. That I could use this time to grow myself and not try to meddle with my out of control WAW.
In a way, I discovered that I needed to have a very Buddhist attitude and just accept the way things are, sort of follow the flow by separating myself from it. Then, I was able to detach. When I did that I could stand by and watch the drama of my WAW and then some clarity came to me. Things got better, not necessarily (but I do think also) with the sitch, but for me to live life on an even keel (not at the level of satisfaction I was used to but manageable). But some days the pain still gnaws on my insides. But it is a dull ache, not a searing knife-wound that I felt for a long time.
But you are ahead of the game. I hope your sitch moves faster than mine.
UD
The 3 laws of DBing:
1. PMA is critical to DBing.
2. Since drop in WAW's PMA leads to drop in LBS's PMA and vice-versa detachment is critical.
3. Validate to raise WAW's PMA and GAL to raise LBS's.
Nice stimulating day at work. I had 45 min open late afternoon, so I went riding on a stationary bike and did 10 min of running just to get the blood pumping. I quickly challenged a parking ticket I received today (had a parking pass, but it had fallen off the dash), s/t I might have left for 'later' in the past. I know that was an irritant to W and myself about me before.
Had a nice eve w/ S5, making him a simple but cooked dinner. At dropoff, W and I sat down to talk. At first she was cold and abrupt, then she settled into our convo. I was able to work in some humor, there were a few stilted moments, like when S5 asked me, "Dad, you love Mom, right." W stiffened a bit, but I simply smiled, relaxed and said "You are a great son, S5." I asked him to quiet when W was talking, and insisted that he follow her directions to put on his PJs. This allowed us to converse more. In our convo, W depicted me as taking great care of myself while she and S5 suffered financially. When she blamed me for her circumstances, I started to defend myself,saying "W, you choice to be in this situation. Your choice created this." It didnt' go over well (duh!)
When she started down a cheeseless tunnel about who has it harder, I quickly deescalated and said, "It doesn't get us anywhere when we get into this competition thing. I don't want to do that anymore." I asked her as genuinely as I could, "Are you having some financial probs? If so, I want to hear about them." W shared w/ me her shortfalls, with more occurring b/c she and S5 are booked for a trip to Disneyworld. Rather than point out the folly of her decisions like going on an expensive vacation when she's broke or argue her claim that I choose work over family (this is new, as she wanted me to work more in our M), let that go.
I said, "I've learned tons in this year about having different priorities. If I ever get another chance w/ you, I'll show you." She surprised me by saying two things: "Why don't you just find someone else" (expected WAS speak); but also, "You haven't shown me enough so far [re my priorities of her first - think love bank here]. All I see right now is that you can take great care of yourself." At this point I winked my pectoral muscles at her and said, "Why thank you!" (joking!) Actually, I said, "Lets talk about your $ probs. How can I help you?" She demured, then noted how I was gouging her in rent (not true) and that S5 had uniform costs that she could not afford. I thought of Gary Smalley's advice to soften her heart with respectful support, especially when needed, and proceeded to reduce her rent and take over her share of uniform costs. After she agreed, I noted "Okay, that's done, and I won't be bring it up again."
Some may argue that I merely enabled a "me-me' WAS, but I think the gesture was timely, in that we once again stepped to the threshold of 'what-if', with her once again not slamming the door shut. I think she's watching me in terms of my success and stability, my ability to handle her upset, and my willingness to help her when she is down. She had asked me to respect her last week, and I think all of this does just that.
We shall see.
She asked me to watch S5 longer Fri night to Sat afternoon, so I'll able to take S5 to a Star Wars-themed Costumed BDay party. Should be interesting.
I think your post above should certainly earn you the title of "most compassionate, DB king". I think I should address you as "Oh, the most compassionate DB King" from here on out.
OK, I have a rather long response here because sometimes when I look at your sitch I see several avenues for self-examination of myself and my sitch. So what I write to you is almost a record of my own process (I am almost being Wes-like and co-opting your thread for my reflections in a way! )
I want to make specific comments on some statements in your post below:
" I started to defend myself,saying "W, you choice to be in this situation. Your choice created this." It didnt' go over well (duh!) " - Yeah, this defending thing is very difficult to get rid of. I have learnt ovr time to say "Hmmm..." and look perplexed when WAW says something about me that I dont agree with.
" W shared w/ me her shortfalls, with more occurring b/c she and S5 are booked for a trip to Disneyworld." - This reveals to you her "feminine" (in the Deida sense) side (sorry ladies, I am only taking about yin and yang aspects here, no implication that women are less fiscally responsible or anything). My WAW is exactly the same way, making terrible financial choices at this point. This is typical of MLCers. They try any salve they can to get over their pain. Like Deida advises, you have to let that run off your back.... The poor decision-making will become evident to her over time. She is a smart woman. She will ask herself why she is in a soup all the time at some point.
" You haven't shown me enough so far [re my priorities of her first - think love bank here]. All I see right now is that you can take great care of yourself." " - positives here Gabe. This means she is noticing the changes. Now, is it possible for you to change that picture slightly? For example, start doing more for S5. I.e. take away some of your W's initiatives on his behalf and do things for him that show that you are taking care of yourself and S5 (leaving the hint in the air that you would take care of her too if you let her). Let me give you examples of some things that I did that my W recognizes now and is in fact jealous of (I am sure you are doing this already, but just throwing ideas out): 1. I buy D3 toys and books on my own. WAW silently hates that. 2. This one is big - I set up, by myself, a 529 (college savings fund) for D3 and casually informed WAW of this just before I had signed off on it. 3. I have been taking digital pictures of S3 and loading them on my laptop. WAW hates that because now I have all the D3 pictures and she does not. For a while there she started taking pictures of D3 with one of those disposable cameras but the pictures were bad and she has now given up. 4. Every two to three weeks I take D3 to the public library and borrow tons of books for her. We read them every day after I get her from daycare. D3 loves this routine. WAW hates it. But anyway, in the spirit of unconditional loving I let WAW borrow the lib books from me. 5. I buy unique things from the organic grcery store for D3 from what WAW buys and it always gets WAW a little jealous when D3 says she likes that and wants it "because dad gets me that". 6. I enrolled D3 in parent-tot music classes. Initially only I went with D3. Then WAW started to join in. At first she scoffed at the idea, now whe loves it. Then this summer I enrolled D3 in swimming and started to take her. WAW then wanted to join in as well.
I dont know if I am conveying to you the flavor of something that has helped me. Basically, you need to crank things up into the next phase. Now, she has noticed that you are "taking good care of yourself". This is good, already you have earned respect in that regard. Now, if you can one-up her on care for S5 (and in fact make that into one element of your growth and permanent change) and take charge of that, you will have gained even more. I dont know if my observation is correct or not but it seems like with S5 she is still "in control" of things. Perhaps wresting that away from her will earn you jealousy (read respect). But the important thing is that you do this in such a way that her ability to mother is not in question either explicitly or implicitly.
One thing that may be useful as perspective to you. If your WAW is like mine and and academic, then GAL activities that enhance physical fitness or amount to body-buliding may be viewed with less favor (even disfavor) than "intellectual" work. I know this is snooty and in fact perhaps even "fake". But just a thought to mull over. While secretly they notice and are attracted to it, they may not evince as much interest or haev as much "points" in their respect chart for such things.
" I thought of Gary Smalley's advice to soften her heart with respectful support, especially when needed, and proceeded to reduce her rent and take over her share of uniform costs. After she agreed, I noted "Okay, that's done, and I won't be bring it up again." " - Bravo, Gabe, this is the definition of unconditional love. You are amazing!!
" Some may argue that I merely enabled a "me-me' WAS" - If I had listened to people who sat on the sidelines and gave me this advice I would be divorced and long-dead in the R by now. This does not work for an MLC-WAW situation. There is too much anger there. If you fight them you just feed into their negative energy. If you soften them, it opens doors to further softening. It all depends on what you are talking about. If your W was having an affair or doing something you personally felt completely opposed to, then you would not want to encourage it. It all depends on whether you still think of your W and S5 as YOUR family or not. If you do, then a true man would be willing to give the skin off his back for them would he not? It all depends on the WAW and LBS and the reading of the former by the latter. I feel that my WAW is in MLC and confused because of what she says to me and others, what she does and from the emotions on her face. My W is still in there somewhere. So, as long as I feel that way I will do everything, sparing no effort and money to get her back out. And then, there is always my D3 to remind me that "if a truly devoted parent were willing to jump in front of a locomotive to rescue a child" the pain I am under now is just nothing.
" I think she's watching me in terms of my success and stability, my ability to handle her upset, and my willingness to help her when she is down. She had asked me to respect her last week, and I think all of this does just that." - You did exemplarily in this regard Gabe. Now you do need to pay heed to the issue of ratcheting up your caregiver role. If you turn that role towards her you will be pressuring her. But you can safely turn that towards S5 demonstrating that you are capable of taking care of more than yourself.
Kudos to you. You are an inspiration.
UD
The 3 laws of DBing:
1. PMA is critical to DBing.
2. Since drop in WAW's PMA leads to drop in LBS's PMA and vice-versa detachment is critical.
3. Validate to raise WAW's PMA and GAL to raise LBS's.
Thanks for the compliment. You win the award for longest post ever to one of my threads! Yet it was all great feedback - I appreciate that very much.
- The 'hmmm' look is good. I will give that a try when she makes future outrageous claims.
- I think she'll get the point as well about finances. I don't want her to be to harsh on herself in terms of guilt, more depressive self-judgments, just to learn to do things a bit differently. [I actually like that she'll be doing s/t fun for S5's sake. She's going with a non-rel ex-SIL of mine and a 5yo cousin of S5. SIL wasn't very supportive of our M, distant until probs occurred, then jumped in to support W's D. I'm staying distant from SIL and my estranged bro for this reason.]
- Shifting some effort from self-care to other-care. W was very jealous of my attention/focus on S5 early in his life/our M. I think she has some grounds for this, as I went ga-ga over my son, and I wasn't feeding her needs as well as I should have (think love bank). So it's a solid idea, that I increase my care for him in obvious ways (I'm thinking soccer, swim lessons, music lessons that I arrange, with room for her to attend/participate as well.)
But I'll need to keep fitting in some 'attendance' to her in small, nonthreatening ways. Just momentary tastes of my ability to feed her, and the message that I won't ever forget that healthy part of an R again.
1-2 beers/night isn't helping the PMA either. Back to natural sleepiness and better PMA in the morning/day, hopefully.
Feels good to get on the bench and lift more than those young whippersnappers. Not that I'm comparing myself or anything... 
